Any tips about balancing a setup?

[Tamuz]

Saying "its common sense" is not explaining things.

Saying "look at the example, its obvious what to do" is not explaining.

[Katsuki]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well, but it's not hard to realize when one side is far more power loaded than the other.

Again, you're mixing up "coming sense" and "gut reaction from having designed a lot of setups/played a lot of games."

Imagine someone who has never played, or even heard of, mafia. You then explain to them the rules of the game and tell them to make a setup.

Yeah, "common sense" my ass.

Why the fuck would they be making a setup then. If you're going to throw out the basic assumptions of those who are modding/designing, then you mind as well say just put in whatever you want.

Considering that's not what this thread is about I have no idea why you're even bothering to type this.

[Tamuz]

Hard to believe you play a game that revolves around making arguments given data with that 'tude :S

[BROseidon]

I used the most exaggerated example possible to make the point that what you call "common sense" is something that comes from having experience.

Which someone designing a setup for the first time lacks.

[Katsuki]

I used the most exaggerated example possible to make the point that what you call "common sense" is something that comes from having experience.

Which someone designing a setup for the first time lacks.

Someone designing a setup for the first time does not lack basic knowledge of the game for which they're creating a setup for.

Certain assumptions of basic competence is applied. It's pointless and a waste of time to consider how would we teach say a "mentally challenged" person with 0 game knowledge how to mod, because as said, that's not what this thread is about nor what OP asked for.

[Tamuz]

Katsuki go to bed, write in your journal and come back when you have something to say "other than its intrinsic once you do once you know what to do."

I for one have far more game experience than you and I have no idea how to make a game or any of this common sense in creating a balanced set-up. Your argument is shit and just ends up being you pumping up your ego, putting down people looking for help and no actual constructive information.

[Katsuki]

Hard to believe you play a game that revolves around making arguments given data with that 'tude :S

:3

P-EDIT: I'll explain more on what you just said at a later point.

[BROseidon]

Someone designing a setup for the first time does not lack basic knowledge of the game for which they're creating a setup for.

Knowledge of game != understanding of balance. Presumably, someone asking for help with design balance is looking for actionable advice because they don't feel they have a good grasp on balance.

[Katsuki]

I will counter that with, if you don't have at least some understanding of balance, how do you crack the game come massclaim? How do you figure out how plausible each role is in a setup?
The best example is scum fakeclaiming and fakeclaiming actions. There are times when roleclaims make 0 sense in a setup, and you pick up on that even if you have never modded before. Basic game knowledge will naturally find its way into your setup designing.

As for reviewers, you should always have them. There are some things you may not realize with role interactions that you had not originally thought of when creating the setup.

[Katsuki]

I for one have far more game experience than you and I have no idea how to make a game or any of this common sense in creating a balanced set-up. Your argument is shit and just ends up being you pumping up your ego, putting down people looking for help and no actual constructive information.

If anything, I was trying to help (which is currently being debated by you guys) and you guys felt the need to take this thread on a whole other tangent.

As for no sense of balance, I pray I never get caught as town with town!you in a late-game scenario.

[Tamuz]

We are and have been saying appealing to 'common sense' is not helpful. You essentially are saying 'people who know how to balance intrinsically should know what to do'. That's cool and a truism, but it doesn't help anyone learn.

Break it down to stupidsense.
If you can't break down your instinctual thought processes, you definitely do not understand them well enough to help we idiots learn how to balance on our own.

[Alduskkel]

[unrelated to the above]
A general rule is that there should always be more Town PRs than Mafia PRs, if they are of similar levels of power. At the same time, keep in mind that the purpose of most Mafia PRs is to counter Town PRs -- that is to say, most Mafia PRs would be useless if there were no Town PRs.

"Don't rely on 1 PR to fix your setup" is very important as FakeGod said. Also, don't base your setup off of one particular role either (as I think Vi said somewhere else).

Also keep in mind that some roles imply other roles; for example, an Even-Night role implies an Odd-Night role.

[Katsuki]

We are and have been saying appealing to 'common sense' is not helpful. You essentially are saying 'people who know how to balance intrinsically should know what to do'. That's cool and a truism, but it doesn't help anyone learn.

Break it down to stupidsense.
If you can't break down your instinctual thought processes, you definitely do not understand them well enough to help we idiots learn how to balance on our own.

I did go back and amend stuff, but in all honesty, all you and Bro really did was come in and be all snarky about things.

Which reminds me, this is a tips thread. Similarly to pretty much anything you do, "Trusting your instincts" is a part of setup design. You say you haven't made a game, so really I don't even know why you're talking in the first place.
Saying my explanations aren't clear is one thing (which I would accept, and have admitted) , going on on a tangent dismissing something that you apparently have little or no knowledge is unnecessary.

So I will say this kindly as it's really not beneficial to be spamming this thread with our petty arguments in the first place, and as a nice fellow I know would say, get aids and die.

[Tierce]

Also keep in mind that some roles imply other roles; for example, an Even-Night role implies an Odd-Night role.

From experience, wrong. It's more often than not a sign of lack of creativity when it does work like that--many mods are more adventurous with their setups than that.

[Zachrulez]

Also keep in mind that some roles imply other roles; for example, an Even-Night role implies an Odd-Night role.

From experience, wrong. It's more often than not a sign of lack of creativity when it does work like that--many mods are more adventurous with their setups than that.

I find it fun sometimes to imply roles that actually don't exist. Like putting in a godfather that has investigation and kill immunity when neither a vig or a cop actually exist.

[Mr. Flay]

Also keep in mind that some roles imply other roles; for example, an Even-Night role implies an Odd-Night role.

From experience, wrong. It's more often than not a sign of lack of creativity when it does work like that--many mods are more adventurous with their setups than that.

I find it fun sometimes to imply roles that actually don't exist. Like putting in a godfather that has investigation and kill immunity when neither a vig or a cop actually exist.

This is a great trick to pull on occasion, because you get the Shadow Cop benefit - Mafia will start to make suboptimal decisions based on the Cop/Vig they are trying to avoid.

[kuribo]

You can also include a BP scum despite not having anyone else that can NK

on the town side, Backup Doc or Cop without a corresponding role.

Psychologist in a game without an SK is fun too

[Kdub]

Read old games, specifically post-games to see how things worked out and what ideas people thought were good and not so good. Remember though that any given role can be great or terrible in the context of the overall setup, so don't throw random roles in your game just because it worked out in a different one. Think about how they will interact with the rest of the setup.

- Don't allow protective chains (eg, two Doctors who can protect eachother).

Bit of a derail, but I've done this a couple times. In practice, two docs is probably equal or even less pro-town than a lone doc. Unless there is an independent way to confirm them as town (e.g. cop), chances are slim that they will both be outed as docs

and believe each other

. Once you've done this once in a game, it also gives scum in your future modded games some more options in terms of fakeclaiming if you've established a mod meta of having included duplicate town roles before.

[Tierce]

Also keep in mind that some roles imply other roles; for example, an Even-Night role implies an Odd-Night role.

From experience, wrong. It's more often than not a sign of lack of creativity when it does work like that--many mods are more adventurous with their setups than that.

I find it fun sometimes to imply roles that actually don't exist. Like putting in a godfather that has investigation and kill immunity when neither a vig or a cop actually exist.

My bad, I meant to quote only the even/odd sentence. And yes, doing that can be fun; there was a similar effect on 2of4 setups; the

possibility

of a Doctor in the setup caused the scum to play differently than if they knew a Doctor was absent. The threat of the role was almost as powerful as the role itself.

[Alduskkel]

I just think some roles tend to cross-confirm each other by their very nature, which might be unintended and potentially game breaking.

[quadz08]

Semi-open setups with doctors in them are fun cause of what Tierce says.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, Shadow Doc is worth even more than Shadow Cop, because of how often real Docs (fail to) hit.

[Psyche]

I wonder if an algorithm can be drawn up that takes roles as input and assesses balance.

[Tamuz]

Just an algorithm?

Sure.
lambda x : True

[Psyche]

shuddup