A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Tierce]

Actually. How did you EVER think I was talking about Amrun from what I said?

Even more important, in a game where the role has nothing to do with the alignment, why were you pushing for a

claim

?

Oh, come now.

[SpyreX]

No, I did not. My last post in this thread is at 12:08 - 35 minutes before the L-1. Cephrir is the only person to post (besides a VC) in between the L-1, Garruk's 12 hour warning, and your hammer.

Because it'd take a 'particularly ticklish brand of stones' to insinuate that because I was posting in other games that that somehow means that I was lurking here instead of just posting in my other games. Maybe you should take a look at the content of those posts in those games to which you think I'm lurking with instead of involved in those games.

You know, besides the fact even if I had seen it - there was still 12 hours hence from a stated intent.
You say it was because of 'reasons' - yet the only reason I see to hammer something that already has intent on it, is to prevent us from getting the information we were waiting on from Amrun. Did you get what you wanted from your 'reasons'?

I dont care

what you were posting. You were clearly on. You announced the L-2, you knew what was happening.

And if you don't know what my reasons were then *claps hands*. But, that makes sense because this is all shadowboxing right now.

Oh, come now.

No. How, from my words would you get I was talking about Amrun ?

And, if its the latter no way. You vote to make people dead. You dont vote for a claim. She didn't even say it was a lolpressure vote to get the fabled content. It was for the claim and in the best of worlds that stinks to high heaven.

[elleheathen]

Actually. How did you EVER think I was talking about Amrun from what I said?

Even more important, in a game where the role has nothing to do with the alignment, why were you pushing for a

claim

?

First, if you don't want to be misunderstood, be more clear. 'She' is not clear.

Second:

Do you think that just because roles comes before alignments, that claims will not help us? That claims can't be countered or discussed or merited?

Do you not think that those that pushed SD's claim used the validity of it to access him as town given that claim in combination with his responses, despite the 'what came first' debate?

Also:

And, if its the latter no way. You vote to make people dead. You dont vote for a claim. She didn't even say it was a lolpressure vote to get the fabled content. It was for the claim and in the best of worlds that stinks to high heaven.

Let's review.

My lynch pile looks something like: zdenek/amrun/ooba/kanye - though it's also a 'would like more from' pile.

And since almost everyone on the lynch is one of my townreads, with I think the one exception already named:

VOTE: Amrun

I believe this is

L-2

?

I'm conflicted on the slot - I think there was a point where I was leaning town due to some of their responses but it's been covered up under all the excuses ever. Content or claim, imo.

So please, do tell me how that's not a pressure vote when I state that I'm voting it because my townreads are there and because I'm conflicted over Amrun's dodgy posting - to which I want what is promised. The content, and if that doesn't happen - the claim.

Try again - because the only person that I can see that voted to 'make them dead' was

you.

[Cephrir]

Even more important, in a game where the role has nothing to do with the alignment, why were you pushing for a

claim

?

Information roles exist...

[Tierce]

Actually. How did you EVER think I was talking about Amrun from what I said?

Even more important, in a game where the role has nothing to do with the alignment, why were you pushing for a

claim

?

Oh, come now.

No. How, from my words would you get I was talking about Amrun ?

And, if its the latter no way. You vote to make people dead. You dont vote for a claim. She didn't even say it was a lolpressure vote to get the fabled content. It was for the claim and in the best of worlds that stinks to high heaven.

On the former:

I'm up to page whole twelve and I hop across to see this?

This is too perfect for too many reasons.

Unvote, Vote: Amrun

I don't see why she (or anyone, including me) wouldn't think that "I have a scumread on Amrun" is one of those "too many reasons".

As for the latter, no. Not everyone votes for a lynch. Ask the majority of the people in the Amrun wagon; people wanted to see content out of her, and pressure is one way to achieve it. But that wasn't even my point, my point was that a claim, flavor and role, may not only be relevant for alignment (as Faraday games have plenty of informative/investigative/knowledgeable roles that can confirm other people), but also,

roles don't flip

. It HELPS to have claims before lynches, and what a person claims to have DONE with their role

is indeed relevant to alignment

. You're neglecting all these very sensible, Town-based aspects relevant to someone wanting a claim in a uPick to try and paint elleheathen's stance as scummy.


Cephrir, please stop bothering me by looking Town at inopportune moments, thanks.

[Nautilius]

SPYREX WHEN I GIVE YOU READS YOU ACCEPT THOSE FUCKING READS AND YOU TREAT THEM LIKE GOLD
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE STILL IN THE DOG HOUSE

[Goat on a Raft]

We got prodded; apologies. Part of this is due to the fact that we're pretty sure our votes are in the two best places right now, but more later.

[Nautilius]

benmage, peacebringer

How are you feeling about these two reads at the moment?

[Shadoweh]

I'm here at the moment and catching up, I'm just doing a bad job of it because I keep falling asleep or being distracted by character creation. I would rather read all of the DAy 1 walls then read one more thing about vehicle customization. @_@ (I'm even trying to read Spyrex x Elle even though it seems so very, very pointless and worst semantics argument ever.)

Tierce if you're not attached to your vote how do you feel about Zdenek or Messiah Complex? I'm of the opinion Zdenek is getting bluher by the second and Messiah's Spy vote seemed pretty terrible, I've been regretting saying they're town for awhile now and willing to attribute it to hydra changes.

[SafetyDance]

I'm here. Will have more time to post today after work.

[Shadoweh]

It's impressive that BECAUSE YOU HAMMERED still has steam. I'm assuming 50% of that is playstyle outrage still. Cmon guys this is dumbbbbb.

I've been considering what to say because ooba's responses have made me a little more depressed at the idea of an ooba wagon working, also because I don't think they're bad, even if I agree with like.. none of his reads beyond the obvious ones. Come on ooba, just admit your Messiah case is better and stop joining the hammer outrage, it makes you look bad in general.

Also I'm mostly quoting this entire post because of how bad it looks. >_>

Is enough. It takes a particularly ticklish brand of stones to call out the hammer even if it was fast. Someone with more time: I'd love to see if there was activity from anyone on the wagon after Garruk posted and BEFORE I hammered.

And as for yesterdays hammer. Yea, I was only on 12. Now that I'm all caught up the only thing that would have given me pause is that there is no flips.

And I say pause. Because I would have still done it. Amrun was in my notes (which if someone reaaaaaaly wants to see and laugh at I guess I can post) from post 1 and that never changed. Riding the lurking dragon doesn't change that.

More importantly though: I have role-reasons for wanting that hammer. I also want this one.

I am struggling to find the words to describe how I feel about your comment on someone having the "balls" to call out your hammer. I guess the best way to put it is that you must have a brass set yourself to try and make someone out to be the reactionary one when your action was questionable at best and a pure scum move at worst. You admit that you were 12 pages deep when you flipped over to the last page to see Amrun at L-1 and, lucky day, hammered.

I also like the fact that you ask someone with more time to investigate what activity happened in thread after Garruk gave intent to hammer and your hammer, like there was so much activity that it would be impossible for you to wade through. Two posts were made in between his intent and your hammer. Two. One of them was a vote count update from the Mod, the other was a quick question from Cephrir. Then you pop in and hammer. And what excuse do you have for this action? A Monday Morning QB read on Amrun that you made postmortem and a vague reference to hammers relating to your role. We think that the reason that you are unable to adequately explain yourself is because there was no town motivation behind what you did. You cut short a townies ability to post when they had said they were going to, and someone else had already called them out and put a deadline on their activity. Hell, if you wanted to hammer you still could have after giving Amrun some time to complete the post she said she was doing. Does your role say anything about not being able to declare intent, or preventing them from claiming. The only reason we can figure you hammering the way you did was to prevent Amrun from being able to reveal any information that could be beneficial to the rest of us.

We believe that there is credence to the theory that Peace replaces out as scum where he wouldn't as town, and see his reason for replacing out to be suspect. Adding that to the absolute void that was displaced, and the abomination of a hammer and subsequently shitty response to town reactions from Spy there is no dissidence when we

Unvote

Vote: Spy

First off: Brass balls reactionary etc. How is it incorrect that elle is reacting to Spyrex's action? I get that you're trying to say the hammer was the worst thing ever but you're way overselling it. Spyrex also clarified in his next post that part of his problem is that elle cast the L-2 vote then was upset that someone hammered the wagon she was pushing. I disagree with him but I can see where he's coming from, and expecting him to think about it from the perspective of everyone else doesn't work, most townies don't see themselves as scum. (I don't think Spy's slot is scum anymore btw) This point sounds like "How dare you."

Secondly: More lolhammer part deux. He just read the entire 96 page game in three days, you don't think it's reasonable that he didn't remember the activity clearly because he wasn't reading the game at the point of the hammer? (He wasn't, I think we've established that even if he threw the vote down). The rest of this is just a long way to say you're mad at the hammer again. :/ Also, talking about cutting short a townie's ability to post only works post-mortum, as town Spyrex wouldn't know that.

Thirdly PB: I brought up PB's possible replacing out tendency, and we looked it over and our meta expert's opinion was that it was a nulltell. People have brought up that Spyrex is a member of the Screaming Death Clan who love seeing bodies hit the floor, so the hammer for the lulz is a nulltell. Do you get that this huge case of yours is a giant mess of nulltells that you're dressing up to look like the scummiest things on the earth?

[Nautilius]

It's a nulltell but SpyreX could still totally be (and probably is) scum. I don't mind riding stupid hammer rage to kill a hard to lynch SpyreX-scum.

[Messiah Complex]

@ Shadow: The actions themselves are null. The ways in which Peace/Spy went about them are scummy as fuck. Why aren't you getting this and why are you going out of your way to misunderstand our position?

- Des

[Messiah Complex]

To whit: Spy isn't scum

because

he hammered, he's scum because his hammer deprived the town of: setup information via Amrun's claim, Amrun's now-confirmed-town final reads, and most importantly, the potential for us to have

not lynched town yesterday because Arya was probably a power role and few (if any) were actually interested in lynching Amrun to begin with.

Sticking your head in the sand and screaming "NULL!!!!!!!!!!!" is seriously missing the point.

- Des

[Nautilius]

Desp, what is your townblock?

[Nautilius]

Why did scum want mollie dead?

Because no one had them as scum and they were afraid of mollie coordinating a townbloc, which she had already begun to do yesterday.

I don't think I've ever seen mollie survive past D2 as town.

aka why don't we finish the job she started? seems more important than lynching spyrex to me.

[Messiah Complex]

I don't really have one right now, that's the problem. What I do have isn't big enough to accomplish anything by itself :/

- Des

[Nautilius]

you, messiah, naut and I?

Here was mollie's last one.
I have applications for Alfred, Benmage, Cephrir, Tierce, Goat, ooba, PnJ, and SD to join as soon as possible and I'm not even done reading.

[Nautilius]

Alfred Borden - In general, Empire is easy as hell to read and Empire has taken the lead in a hydra where his partner is a competent scum player. This is a good sign. Other good signs about this hydra are:

• Good interactions with people who aren't incompetent and can read him well! (See: kanye interactions from empire: they begin kind of buddy buddy, but Empire throws himself in his way a few times to talk about reads. Tammy interactions: See his response to Tammy's hopes that Empire drew scum this round. Nacho interactions: Calls me scum! Then later calls me obvtown. But even better than that, after he calls me obvtown, he keeps. on. interacting! Empire scum if he's ever going to make it past D1 with me has to put in the time, but the time he's put in this game is so free and easy that there's just no way I could think of him as a scumbag).
  
• The Empire endorsement: reads on people close to him have been stronger than Empire normally presents them. This is yet another point towards his towniness since it's a natural progression of hydraing with Llamarble.
  
• The Llamarble Factor: Note the complete lack of posturing, attacking, defending, etc... he's been working on reads and letting Empire do the majority of the heavy lifting.

(so for all of those who needed a rock to build their games around after macmollie died, Alfred Borden seems to be your pair of men!

Andrius/AGar - First thing that needs to be talked about with this slot is Andy's post restriction shenanigans before he replaced out. I have thought on this for months and years, I have meditated with Tibetan monks asking myself if it as an Andy-scum move or not. My answer, my beautiful subjects, is fuck no. In Xenologue, Andy did manage to keep a somewhat cheerful demeanor, but his play was conventional as all hell; he didn't pull off crazy shenanigans (except accidentally quickhammering a townie, but the quickhammer was completely accidental), and he didn't do anything on "principle", which is what he did in faking a post restriction. Andy's town meta is something that is occasionally hard to nail down because he sometimes goes completely off the map, melts down, etc; but he does those things because he's confident in it and can get away with it. He doesn't follow that same route as scum.

AGar has been decently town on his own, although is "decently town" comes in bits and pieces that need to be woven together like a beautiful "AGar totally isn't scum although we all have trouble reading him" masterpiece. The biggest patch is his interactions with Thor; he opens up the game trying to claim authority in being able to read Thor (good), then starts fighting with him tooth and nail to nail him down into doing something sensible (better). Smaller patches include his interactions while tunneling; he doesn't get lost in an obnoxious battle with ooba while pushing them (most battles are saved for mollie and dissenting townreads), works to do things after ooba, and doesn't keep pushing a tired ooba wagon when he could easily continue doing so.

This townread is not complete and raging hard because getting fucked by Andy faking a PR to muddy the waters and AGar going for some creative interactions with Thor isn't fakeable, but still unlikely.

Benmage - I'd be lying out of my ass if I wasn't mostly sheeping Beautiful Universal Townread (and kaney) with this one, but I do think that Benmage is more likely town than not. Disconnected from his read, coasting, decent adjectives that make him more likely to be town. His opening Day 2 was also completely unlike what I'd expect out of him as scum who just lynched Thor D1, he was quiet and disconnected, and when AGar called him out for dancing all over the place about his awesome lynch, he responded:

Benmage, why are you not in here pontificating about how amazing you are right now owning that massive fuckup of a clear and obvious mislynch?

That lynch was a clear success. Get better.

I liked that.

Cephrir - Cephrir is a shiny townread from Nacho to you! Cephrir's scumgame is a hell of a lot more posture-y, a lot more confident, and usually pretty decent in bringing up reasoning he thinks other people will like. Cephrir's towngame usually involves less posturing, more waffling, more paranoia, far more genuine. He has town leans similar to Empire townleans that has him personally seeking me out and interacting with him when I have a pretty good record of reading him and an awesome grasp on my meta.

don't care for the note formatting as they don't feel like how a townie would keep their notes,

I've seen Cephrir several times as town pull the whole "hmmm this looks like townie notes" bit, so I enjoyed this post quite a bit.

syrlacious I was talking to you

I will only speak with mollie when she shows up. I dislike how hard she's lurking right now.

Not that I probably have as much experience with her but I'm feeling similarly.

This sort of thing also seemed pretty town. Cephrir tends to expect a ridiculous amount of towniness from certain people, and the fact that the Syryana troll went over his head is probably a good thing in retrospect.

His appeals to mollie/Tammy are all generally useless for him as town, him getting extremely weird on me when it looks like I'm posturing to call him scum was

awesome

.

elleheathen: I look at this ISO and I want to call it town but I hear shadows of Tammy in the back of my head and I can't get past my fear and embrace the towniness.

Things I like:
Back off Thor after asking for his flavor claim.
Calling Tammy town for no paranoia of her (it seemed like the predicting what you think someone is gonna do as scum then giving you a townread when you don't do it. it doesn't seem effective, but the thought processes are decently hard to think up when scum, I feel).
I liked being called town. I liked when she got weird on me a lot more.
Thought process with regards to what kind of miller Thor was in #780 was townie.
Push on Zdenek.

Things I don't like:
???
???
???
Goat's tipping point seems to be irrationality that I'm finding town.
She is very bubbly as scum.

I embrace the Elle townread.

Garruk Relentless:
So it goes without saying that there's some weird shit with Tierce where he investigated her as town and did something else and now she thinks he's town too? The role seems like Faraday-troll and I enjoy the way that he approaches figuring it out. His wight flavor analysis is weird but seems to be coming from a good place. I liked his sheeping Syr quite a bit, honestly: I feel Nat is more likely to get lost as town than as scum and so the reachout felt very genuine. I also really like the attack on AGar for "baiting the hammer"; it's thinking one step deeper than "lolhammer" and isn't that bad at all. The niggles are not enough interactions with me but that's probably just narcissistic paranoia because I've been spoiled by the reachouts in this game.

Goat on a Raft:
Goat drove me crazy until something like #753 when my blind rage against him started to see the possibility of him being town. I usually can't read CDB worth a shit unless people are pushing him decently as scum, and I feel his reactions here are confident and something that's pretty unlikely from his scumgame (although on the outside edges of possibility). His claim is a hard thing to lie about (especially with Shadoweh/Syryana/Alchemist possible third party) and can lead to him getting powerlynched to shit in a lot of scenarios. I think his early reads to form strong trust townreads (nacho, what's your read on mollie? sheeping your read on Tierce.) was a good move in a subtle way, his push towards deathrage is genuine as hell, etc. Probably definitely town.

[Nautilius]

kaney:
I liked the early RVS push. I don't think that matters too much anymore.
In general, I like the aggressiveness with which he protects his townreads earlygame. It's good stuff.
#184 & #188 were good.
prodding good townreads is also good.
the majority of this read is "nothing looks too bad", which means that I could probably flop on him at any time but probably won't. I want to have a nice long chat about peacebringer though because I think that read is off base currently and it sort of bothers me a bit that he has it.

[Nautilius]

(ftr mollie read on kanye helps loads)

Messiah Complex:

Why did scum want mollie dead?

Because no one had them as scum and they were afraid of mollie coordinating a townbloc, which she had already begun to do yesterday.

I don't think I've ever seen mollie survive past D2 as town.

I don't really have one right now, that's the problem. What I do have isn't big enough to accomplish anything by itself :/

- Des

Before I read on this I just want to talk about how this bothers me. He thinks mollie was killed because she was starting to coordinate the townblock and yet makes no effort to coordinate one himself?

I liked his question to me in #999.
I liked his uncomfortableness around the Stup wagon.
I think I liked Desp pulling the breaks on a Garruk vote after FF's giant case on him.
I think the "scum JOAT wouldn't vend N1" was some batshit crazy reasoning to call someone town but I thought it was more likely to be coming from town.
I like him complaining about me not sorting him.
I like mollie's townread on him!

Hmmmm.

Vote: SpyreX

[Nautilius]

ooba - I feel in my heart that ooba is town and I'm going to have a hell of a time letting go with it even if I go down this list and I find three more townreads.

Agar's post makes some valid sounding points.

I think scum is less likely to acknowledge the case on them as "valid", especially when they have a perfectly good rebuttal.
I thought his peacebringer case was fucking great.
His idea of why SpyreX hammered is good.

I did not like how D2 ended abruptly. I wanted to take a more active role today in seeing who I want to get lynched lynched. That involves pushing cases on those I want lynched and dissuading people from other votes. If I had thought Agar's L-1 was scummy - I would have mentioned it.

this seemed awesomely genuine

I'm sorry but that's not how the game works - I will use game events and quotes as I see fit. As someone who does not have great rhetoric, if Nautilus has eloquently put why Andruis's early play was a town tell - I will use it.

this reminds me of a cephrir town tell
i'm not sure if it applies to ooba ofc but if he was cephrir i would call this shit town

- A lot of people called Benmage town because of meta reasons. And his play neither had town nor scum vibes for me. And there were times when I thought "Those many people can't be wrong. Weak town pile?". Every single time I came close to doing that, it didn't feel right so kept him in neutral.

also genuine and town as fuck

Ooba has been generally passive, reactive and mostly concerned with his image rather than finding scum. In his first real post, he has two scum reads - quadz and kanye. He votes for one, but he makes no effort to gain traction on either wagon. A pro-town mindset would have him trying to lobby for more votes on those wagons to garner reactions, generate pressure and help divulge more from which he can gather reads from. He has repeatedly made posts which appear to deflect any attempts to garner insight into his reads, which from a town perspective makes no sense, because again - it does nothing to help gather people to your case, and thus, he once again appears to not actually care whether his wagons gain any ground, just that he has a vote cast somewhere. He's trying to make it appear as if he's involved in this game without actually being involved. He's since moved his vote to Shadoweh, who is his new main suspect, but once again done nothing to actually see if that's a viable wagon.

^this case sucks because it completely disregards the subtle ooba hints where he believes his rhetoric isn't entirely up to par^
it also sucks because ooba has made an effort to push wagons and constantly tries to sell them even if he doesn't exaggerate with how awesome they are.

quadz's case is similar and around it there is mostly cheerleading and a horrible lack of good points.
i've come close to being tempted to take ooba out of my townreads, but after that mtgs fiasco and ooba still being town as shit i'm going double down because ooba is still quite town

[Nautilius]

{AGar, Zdenek, SpyreX}

I take the AGar townread back; there's enough town elsewhere so it's no longer valid.

[Nautilius]

Andrius AGar
Garuk Relentless (Natarisha/MafiaSSK)
kanyeknowsbest
PeaceBringer, displaced Spyrex
Shadoweh
The Alchemist
Zdenek

Shadoweh is possibly third party, which makes the 6 number make more sense. I'm not gonna trust Garruk until Tierce tells me why I should trust Garruk. Kanye is the towniest out of that bunch, but not townie enough.

[Nautilius]

SM/SD aren't 100% reads either.
And I guess elle isn't.

But the way SM came at me felt town as fuck.
SD should be having juicy role results soon.