Marketplace Mafia III - Game Over

[Zdenek]

peregrine, why did you bid on Neighbourizer?

[Magua]

Vote Count 2.17

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

Klick (4): Seanald, pieguyn, Harakiri, Klick
VoidedMafia (4): morph the cat, BBmolla, uʍop ǝpısdn, 1baldeagle1
Nero Cain (3): Lord Mhork, zMuffinMan, VoidedMafia
Lord Mhork (2): Nero Cain, Zdenek
morph the cat (1): Pyrotechnics
uʍop ǝpısdn (1): ProHawk
Lost Butterfly (1): Lost Butterfly
DoctorPepper (1): Garuda

Not Voting (3): Ghostly Penguin, DoctorPepper, PeregrineV

Deadline for Day 2 is Friday, November 1st, at 2:00pm EST (site time).
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2013-11-01 13:00:00)

[Zdenek]

7) We don't have enough information to confirm who really advertised Medium or Neighbourizer. upside down/Zdenek/Garuda/morph, I don't suppose you could claim how much you spent, could you?

$5

[Zdenek]

Well, I've sort of read the thread. There is no way I am getting those top six reads out tonight though. Will put in *work* this weekend.

[Pyrotechnics]

Hehehe... You're funny, Nero. Do you always flip out or just as scum?

I'm not flipping out just calling you on your shit.

Why aren't you yelling at people Nero?

You are clearly not reading. Why are you not reading?

You getting into an inane argument with lord mhork is not what I consider the Nero Cain yelling at people as you burn through the thread and Scumhunt. This is a bit of a start, but it wasn't there before.

[Garuda]

VOTE: Pyrotechnics

Anyone with the following abilities should claim right away: Deadline, Hitman, Investigative Immune, Nightkill. I'd want Extra Vote and Vote Freezer to claim, too.

We got Investigation Immune! I can't believe it was so cheap. We even bid $80 on it to keep it out of scum's hands.

My initial reaction to this is that it was incredibly town, especially coming from Mina. Town motivation is pretty fucking clear, and it seems like an extraordinarily weird reaction to be coming from scum. Second thought was that it's also a good way to get your foot in the door early, especially with a counterclaim (aka you become the center of attention early) which is a great thing for scum who can handle the attention, and something I

know

Faraday thinks about thanks to a conversation with Tammy a while back.

I talk A LOT with Faraday, but mostly on AIM. But for this game, I've been asking Magua five zillion questions about every single role interaction in the hydra QT.

And nothing interesting came of this?

Voided, if it makes you feel better, you're actually making me feel slightly guilty about my vote on you. But why are you defending me this hard? I'm town, but there's no way you can be sure of it this early; I mean, I've mostly been on the defensive so far and this game has been open for barely an hour, so I haven't even had time to do anything that looks all that town.

Questioning people when they have shoddy townreads on you and a reason to buddy you is A+ good. Most people end up letting these things go regardless of alignment, so usually the questioning is a sign of good paranoia.

You should probably vote me for avoiding your questions, tammy

This is what I was talking about earlier re: hydra dynamics. I'd expect Faraday to allow Mina to handle the posting herself regardless of their alignment, but I can't imagine him purposely making the job of looking town more difficult by just popping in and antagonizing Tammy while doing pretty much nothing else that's even vaguely important.

#214 is a thoroughly awesome post which very wonderfully describes why baldeagle is town.

So something Faraday has done before was claim miller just to see if a real miller would counterclaim him, and then retract it. We decided to run with something similar here.

In this game, it has less utility (since we know what roles in the game, and anyone could counter us), but we thought that if we claimed to have won something antitown, we could possibly get someone to look really town by their reaction (or possibly give away knowing outside information).

For a while, I was debating between claiming Hitman and Investigation Immune. At first, we wanted Hitman, because we thought a scum investigation immune player would be more likely to counterclaim us. (Before we got our role PMs, we'd considered a scum strategy would be to bid on investigation immunity, claim it to look town, and then transfer it to a teammate and give him cop protection). Hitman is more likely something scum wouldn't claim--particularly since WE look scummy if a NK goes through that shouldn't have.

But then I thought about it, and realized we should choose Inv. Immune for the opposite reason. Town will almost certainly claim either Hitman or Scum. But scum is much more likely to claim Investigation Immune than Hitman for town cred. So if we claim Investigation Immune (and scum has it), they go, "Score! They're probably on the other Mafia Faction and signalling to us!" Or capitalize on the confusion and say nothing. So the object was also to reduce the chance of scum claiming inv. immune (and then passing it on). (Actually, now I just realized that it might have been better to let them claim it and be held accountable. OOPS.)

HOWEVER, my major mistake in the plan: not accounting for the fact that scum are confirmed to have cop right now. I'd thought of this before seeing the auction results, and didn't take into account the fact that the investigation immune role is no longer even a threat to town when the scum have cop.

So...long story short: I should have claimed Hitman.

This, however, lends more credence to the "good town gambit" over "getting foot in the door". The thought process here seems SMOOTH, developed, and down a hell of a rabbit hole if these two are scum.

preview-edit: is no one reading my posts at all? My reveal barely drew crickets, just lots of fluff about breakfast cereals.

I liked this quote. It showed antsiness after a big reveal that I think scum would be less willing to share.

UNVOTE: Lord Mhork

Hope Faraday doesn't mind (he's away in Niagara Falls), but I'm extremely uncomfortable being on this wagon now.

Good time to back off.

3) Honestly, it just read genuine. It's the "bitches" that did it for me.

This was good, and I agree with it for some strange reason.

You know what's a sign that there's a problem? My read on Pyrotechnics is, "I'd think they're town, but they suspect us for braindead reasons." Literally. That is why I'm paranoid of you now. There is no more depth to it than that. No, the pieces for Pyrotechnics-scum don't actually fit, because their neighbourizer thing is protown, and I really don't see Tammy attacking us this hard as town. But I don't care. Your posts do not make sense right now. Because that's how terrible your case is.

Genuine note #1.

Not once have you so much as reevaluated us (after our unclaim, after my posts today). The closest thing was when I posted strategy...which actually, wasn't a town tell at all, since anyone can post strategy. And I mean, do you really think you're going to get strategy instead of trolling from Faraday? I'd have expected something like long and reasoned evaluations on our posts, questions on my reads, or trademark town!Tammy waffling.

Genuine note #2.

Frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm in a never-ending arms race between my scum and town game when I play with people I know well. I can't look obvtown every second. I can't always have a breaking strategy or concern myself with appearances or be attentive to every single detail in the thread or always be emotional/spontaneous/whatever it is "town Mina" sounds like. And after a certain point, there's only so much I can up the ante by.

Genuine note #3, although not as great as #1 or #2.

All in all, feels town as fuck.

I'm actually pretty confident that morph is town for *reasons*.

This was weird.

if you could stop posting that'd be really awesome

I'm sure you'd love me to not rail at your scumbuddy, but that's really just too bad.

I get a strong desire to step in front of a bus everytime I read one of your posts.

Hydra dynamics, part 2: the better example.

Also, this post reads like he's fishing for the other team:

This attack was pretty weak.

Okay. Advertisements.

This post definitely felt like it was coming from a town POV, was an interesting way to tackle the game. It feels like Mina is attempting to solve the game from a lot of different directions, which is actually pretty excellent. This post in particular really,

really

felt like something that would be extraordinarily difficult to fake as scum.

Even over Pyrotechnics (having some paranoia of them, actually, but we still think they should be included).

Don't like this. It seems strange that they would go "hey we're still kind of paranoid of this player but we're gonna put them in the town block anyways".

[morph the cat]

zMuff is probably scum.

We're not so sure about that. Another wall is incoming later tonight, with our meta research.

[Garuda]

We lost the bid for neighborizer. I submit that whoever won it needs to claim it so that we can evaluate them. Also, I don't see neighborizer in the abilities not yet auctioned, so I *think* from what I've read it won't show up again, but if it does or can be advertised it's something that we shouldn't do.

Not necessarily. They could easily bid whatever they wanted to mess with our heads and keep us guessing. They got cop, which means they're going to be looking for the other team at night. Neighborizer is the only way they'll be able to communicate. I want to make sure the neighborizer is town.

Let's look at it this way, the person who has the neighborhood is scum? They can not claim and then hold onto it while they cop people to try to find the other team and then neighborhood one of them, then get information for who else to neighborize from the other team. YAY now they can communicate and town has a harder time of winning this game.

If the neighborizer is town, they claim and will be using it night one and two, we can evaluate them and their choices. This is good for town.

Tammy's thought process with regards to the neighborizer is crazy clear, and I like how she expects Mina to share her thought process/gets paranoid of her when she doesn't. Town-Tammy pretty forcefully throws her thought processes on people sometimes because she's town and other townies should be thinking like her, but she doesn't do any of that in her scumgame.

I couldn't care less whether or not you LIKE why I find you suspicious. If you know me and If you know my town self, you know that I don't think that early game suspicions have to be awesome and you push where something feels off no matter how small it may be. The first point does look like it's questioning me, so it looks really lazy on your part, and it looks like you're throwing something on me just to do it. But what really caught me as off is the calling me Empire and asking questions of Garuda, who hadn't even posted. You'd also know if you recognize me and my town game that the amount of time I pay attention to early game suspicion by other people is about *-* much, so you can't throw that against me either. It just feels off to me that you're getting all of that confused.

You do realize that my question to you about you asking Magua questions about roles is AFTER I had already voted you. So, are you faulting me for questioning you to try to determine your alignment further? Are you serious? You do understand you're the Mina who in a Westeros game asked the mod every single questions available and trapped scum day one because of that? So, yeah, for me that if you asked Magua a million questions about all the role interactions I do wonder why you didn't understand the neighborizer potential problem. If you meant why I claimed to have bid $100, why didn't you ask that. And I don't know why that's such a problem as that's how much I bid, especially when you came out and claimed how much you bid on your role. So, what's your point again?

This is incredibly town. Bonus incredibly town points are that she's railing this hard against Lost Butterfly.

is it really really banal Mina? Is it. I would like to know how often as town you decide to underhandedly discredit the points of people you are town reading. You know for a fact scum don't always just kill someone because of a role. They often kill who the most town person is or who is a threat, so reducing it to a role based on paranoia isn't actually accurate.

Also incredibly town.

None of the things you posted is *why* I suspect you though. It's gut and tone. You just decided I suspected you for some reason that didn't enter my mind. The the claim and unclaimed thing, I only found it odd that you would be shamed into dropping something you hoped would be protown because empire said he didn't want any gambits. I get that cabd asked the question about voided and mhork, but even still the comparison strikes me as off because it's not actually taking into account the players involved. So expecting mhork to behave the same way a strong confident player played read off. It wouldn't have read off if there was accounting for that in there. To me, it looked like faraday was doing what he does when he's scum and that's go after what is "scummy" while when town he actually looks for the scum.

And you're right I haven't reevaluated anything yet, but why are you expecting me to jump to it today? I'm extremely busy right now and have done nothing but grading today and getting stuff ready for the 5 evaluations I'm getting this week. So you can shove those long reasoned posts right now especially considering the game hasn't been open for very long. Stop having these overblown expectations for me.

And Ftr all day long when I've caught up I've wanted to read you as town, I really have, because they superficially look townish. But I know you and I know how good you are at mimicking your town play, and I go he this sounds fake. Your posts to mhork have just really rubbed me the wrong way. and I was just kinda hoping to see some protown plan being put in motion, especially since you asked a zillion questions, but there's really not anything. And that might not be a fair expectation, but I am waiting to see that thing that will flip the switch.

Even your rant at me I want to go, oh that's definitely town Mina, never mind, but I also know you're capable of mimicking that too.

still incredibly town

I'm too tired to give a more substantial response to Tammy, but if you'd said all this in the first place, Faraday and I would have been a lot less tetchy in response.

Frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm in a never-ending arms race between my scum and town game when I play with people I know well. I can't look obvtown every second. I can't always have a breaking strategy or concern myself with appearances or be attentive to every single detail in the thread or always be emotional/spontaneous/whatever it is "town Mina" sounds like. And after a certain point, there's only so much I can up the ante by. There isn't anything I can do to defend against a case like that other than say, "Well, yeah, I

can

fake my town meta decently sometimes. So I guess...just be lucky I got a town PM?"

The woes of being a sociopath.

I also think you're overrating my skill as town. You said I have overblown expectations of you--don't you think the reverse is true if you're attacking me for not having broken the entire game in twenty-four hours? (I mean, I'm perfectly happy with the ratio of scumhunting-to-theory-discussion I've done this game.)

Faraday can answer the thing about Voidedmafia and Lord Mhork himself, since I don't think I've played much with Voided and am not sure of his skill level.

I'm curious to know why Syryana is scumreading us, though. He doesn't know anything about our scum meta.

@Mhork: our push on you was real. If we're talking about the same thing, then I was asking why you were calling us scum but also seemed to believe we had actual conviction in our push on you. I'm also kind of curious to why you decided to single out BBmolla on your wagon. Beyond that, that's it.

I can relate to the problems of expectations of being obvtown.

As far as me not saying what I said the first night, that's a load of crap. In your hyperbolic rant about my egregious misreps and me literally quoting everything you said and misinterpretting it, you were way far off. There was some miscommunication earlier,

in which you don't seem to want to accept some of it was on your part ie asking me a question about why I wanted neighborizer to claim when apparently you meant to ask me a different question entirely.

never mind you do. I never even made a case on you, but you were quick to point out the nonexistent case you assumed was a case where stupid, no wait braindead, reasons to suspect you when you just felt off and every post you made felt more and more off.

But you know I did elaborate on the point I was making to Faraday about the comparison between Mhork and Voided. here here and here which I guess it was just more fun to insult me and make fun of me for incorrectly assuming I didn't realize that Faraday was trolling me early, which I think my responses to him were pretty obvious that I knew he was trolling me but whatever. And maybe I didn't get my point across clearly of what I was asking him, because I was trying to make sense of his reads to make sense of him, but you should cut the functionally retarded some slack.

And I never said Oh mina you should have this game broken already. But it did seem odd to me that having asked Magua a million questions about the setups and the roles, there wasn't much of a hint of trying to come up with a plan or coordinate something for town. (And no I don't expect for Faraday to do anything other than troll. And yes, your strategy post could be written by either alignment, but it was nice to see something that was proactive, something that I would expect from someone who had thought about the game enough to ask the mod a bunch of questions.) It's just something that I would have liked to have seen earlier. And really the only person that actually seemed interested in some protown coordination that night was Empire and to a lesser extent Voided. And my overdefensiveness about the neighborizer thing is nothing like the BSG thing but cute of you to bring that up. And it did seem odd to me that someone who asked a bunch of questions to the mod about the roles would find it so strange that I would want the neighborizer to claim. And instead of attacking me for omg claiming I didn't get it and later on attacking me for admitting how much I bid, I find it odd that you didn't actually try to come up with a plan that would be beneficial for the town. If I recall correctly, Empire was the only one to think of a way that the neighborizer could stay hidden but be evaluated.

What is overblown, and still annoys me to some extent, is your comparing at least two weeks to a month of me trying to determine your alignment by asking questions and talking about your meta and reasoning out my read on you and trying to claim that I'm not doing something that took me a month to do in another game in the space of 24 hours here. Like I just read that paragraph again, and I can't believe you actually wrote that. And the thing is I can't believe that you actually believed that enough to write it. I don't know I'm just going to shut up right now because I just think that with the way your slot interacted with me that night you really don't have a right to talk down to me. Maybe there were some communication issues and some of it was my fault, but you assumed reasonings for things that I didn't have. You felt off, you still feel off, and me trying to reason out why you felt wrong when you asked about things as I was trying to determine it myself doesn't make me braindead.

the obvtown atomic bomb

If two players you know aren't shit at this game start throwing out complete batshit idiotic reads and fractures your townblock (which, according to you, is exactly what we've been doing), why the fuck are you townreading us?

still incredibly obvtown

town town town town
town everywhere

Reading through their ISO I'm not particularly inclined to do much explaining with this read (because it should be really really obvious to everyone with eyes), but reminding myself of how fucking town they are makes me get weird on LB a little more because honestly the paranoia on Tammy should be pretty much eradicated and turned to ash in a blast oven by now. I don't care how bad you think Tammy's points on you are, do you really think *this* is what her scumgame has become?

[Garuda]

Then nearly every game we've played together must seem strange.

Oh wait. That's playing to my meta, isn't it.

Scum-ffery is usually bad at responding to pressure as scum (when we talked post-Xenologue, she told me that she literally had no idea how she would react as town but the Xenologue reaction sure as hell wasn't it). Immediately after that, I got two pretty close experiences of ffery under pressure when we got wagonned in both The Walking Dead and Perpetual MyLo. This felt a hell of a lot more like her reactions in the latter two, and I'm not sure she could handle me starting to get weird on her so well as scum.

VOTE: Harakira

Cabd tore himself away from pokemon to put some time into this game. I thought you would too. If you're town.

I thought this reach out was pretty good, especially since it was obvious Sakura was going to make that slot obvtown eventually.

Plus a lot of his posts today remind me of Xenologue

More of a kinda cashcabd feel here, from both of us, actually. And for me (cabd) a few hawk-town games from our home site, including a recent one where he pegged me as SK and didn't let up really. Also has a 165-ish vibe for ffery.

I like the interactions with ProHawk here. Calling him town is kind of a dangerous ground for Cabd since ProHawk could peg him at pretty much any moment, so when Cabd is scum and ProHawk is town he tends to edge him out a bit so that he can take a stronger position when arguing with ProHawk. Right now, morph has him as town town town so a 180 would be extraordinarily difficult to pull off and it feels like Cabd isn't really afraid of him, which is a great sign.

I'm happy with Nacho. I liked his effort to sort me quite a lot.

I feel like I've got my nacho radar back, actually.

This was good as well. I doubt ffery-scum uses a scumgame to pull the "hey I think I figured out how to read nacho again" card.

I'm terribly sorry that you two drew scum yet again, but you both really should have realized that treating me like some kind of village idiot is about the worst possible way of attempting to fool me.

I have been dancing with joy with nearly every post in this game. I'm not watching every step trying not to screw things up for my partner. morph is on my territory. And however this game works out, this is going to be morph-town meta.

This was an incredibly town response to the vote on them and an incredibly hard thing to pull off.

Aw Syr. I was sure that you had my town game calibrated by now. Maybe next time you'll get it right from the start.

^^as was this

Those two posts make kind of a one-two punch of towniness for the morph slot; it's a confident as hell foot forward by ffery and this also marks a bit of a turning point where she takes a very definitive lead of the hydra. It's a pretty harsh difference from the past two morph the cat scumgames, and not in a subtle sense but a very very obvious one.

I'm really sorry I feel this way. But, I don't want to put any more effort into working this out right now.

This felt genuine.

gods i hope you flip scum. It will be so justifying.

I am not even a tiny bit sorry that we'll disappoint.

Though I guess the feeling is mutual in a way. It would be nice to think that at the end of this all, I'll look back and think "well of course, they were scum." But, I don't think so. I think you're town, and yet the disconnect is so vast and pervasive that we're not likely to overcome it.

Ffery getting tunneled as town versus getting tunneled as scum, part 2. There's a word I can't think of right now, but ffery feels so (it's not justified but that's what coming to mind right now) that I actually can't picture her pulling off something like this as scum ever.

You are a Mafia (Left Hand) Member, along with your partners [Partner names go here].

Nest Egg: You start the game with [Some amount >100].
Wage: At the end of every Day, you will receive [Given no time bonus, some value >50].
Mafia Bonus: At the end of every Day, [Some fixed amount probably, 25?].
Insider Dealings: Any money you spend bidding on auctions that are listed in red is [Probably only half used or partially refunded]

Dirty Tricks ($$$): You have a number of dirty tricks at your disposal. Each Night, each member of your team may perform one of these (if desired); however, each Dirty Trick may only be performed once per Night. The first Dirty Trick is free; each subsequent use [some signifigant but not impossible amount]. Dirty Tricks are not treated as targeted abilities; they cannot be roleblocked, and will not appear on Tracker or Watcher reports.
•Wire Fraud: Name two players, a transferer and a transferee. Any money that the transferer would transfer to the transferee during this Night [are blocked and or given to you instead].
•Lockout: Name a target player and a current auction. Any bid made by the targeted player for that auction [will not count as a bid?].
•Countermeasures: Name a target player, a targeted ability name, and a target. If that player attempts to use that ability on that target during this same Night, [that action will fail and they will lose that action].
Shell Game ($$$): At any point during the Night, you may [choose?] to transfer some or all usages of one of your abilities amongst your team as desired. They may be used by the recipients that same Night.

•Transfer: Choose another player. If that player is on your team, [there is no cost to transfer money to them]. Otherwise, [same as town role pm?, 80% goes to them probs].

The setup dance struck me as amazingly townish from both Nat and Cabd. It's incredibly difficult to try to "guess" scum info when you already know that scum info and the way it was done just felt town.

[ProHawk]

The plan.

These are people in my town pile:

Nero Cain
Klick
BaldEagle
Pyrotechnics
Mhork
DoctorPepper

These are advertisements:

Watcher
Tracker
Doc
Cop
Accountant

[Garuda]

That is a strange townpile, hawkie.

[1baldeagle1]

morph, I feel like this is taking too long, do you really need 6 town reads from every single person? Once we get all of the townreads in, what do we do with them?

peregrine, why did you bid on Neighbourizer?

Isn't the answer obvious?

[morph the cat]

hawkie.

Get your own nickname for him, nacho, that one is reserved.

Agree it's a weird list though, I certainly want to see some explanations for it.


Oh also, hawk, meta wallpost will be up in a few hours.

[morph the cat]

morph, I feel like this is taking too long, do you really need 6 town reads from every single person? Once we get all of the townreads in, what do we do with them?

I's only necessary if you're town, feel free to skip it otherwise!

And yes, there's obviously a next step, let me worry about it when we get there. I'll go ahead with it tomorrow evening if we don't have everyone in by then.

[morph the cat]

That is a strange townpile, hawkie.

I told Cabd that I think it kinda does make sense if you view it as a rebuke to the emerging consensus.

[ProHawk]

I should clarify, there are few people here I trust to give money to, or even have in a town-pile. I generally don't town-hunt. However, for the plan to work, I needed to get a list of six.

Nero feels the most town to me, meta-reasons.
I think Klicks reads are actually really good, despite his foolish behavior.
BaldEagle is mostly gut.
Of the hydra-arguments that ensued, they felt the most town.
I liked Mhork's claim in the middle of D1.
Dr.Peppers attack on me didn't feel particularly scummy, despite being completely wrong.

Thats a quick synopsis.

[ProHawk]

Oh also, hawk, meta wallpost will be up in a few hours.

Thats good, I am anxious to see if you pick up on what I did.

[1baldeagle1]

morph, I feel like this is taking too long, do you really need 6 town reads from every single person? Once we get all of the townreads in, what do we do with them?

I's only necessary if you're town, feel free to skip it otherwise!

And yes, there's obviously a next step, let me worry about it when we get there. I'll go ahead with it tomorrow evening if we don't have everyone in by then.

I already said my townreads, just waiting for others to send them in, so we can move on and lynch Voided.

[Garuda]

Get your own nickname for him, nacho, that one is reserved.

you're not the boss of me mom

[Garuda]

my girlfriend thinks this avatar is fucking adorable

[Pyrotechnics]

There's a table about night one - we advertised abductor.

[Sir Waffles Wafflington]

As far as accountability for the night transactions. We could designate the top scum reads and have them transfer to top town reads.

Last game we had a table where we indicated which suspect would transfer what amount of money to which town read; however, that is part of what magua fixed. But if it's still random chance it could work.

[Pyrotechnics]

As far as accountability for the night transactions. We could designate the top scum reads and have them transfer to top town reads.

Last game we had a table where we indicated which suspect would transfer what amount of money to which town read; however, that is part of what magua fixed. But if it's still random chance it could work.

WRONG HYDRA

[Pyrotechnics]

BUT ISN'T MY KITTEN ADORABLE???

[morph the cat]

As far as accountability for the night transactions. We could designate the top scum reads and have them transfer to top town reads.

Last game we had a table where we indicated which suspect would transfer what amount of money to which town read; however, that is part of what magua fixed. But if it's still random chance it could work.

WRONG HYDRA

That's pretty much the plan I have on the table, with modifications to counter scum's new tampering powers.

Hence the "give us 6 town reads and 5 abilities" comment.