Micro 252: There Is No Doctor - END

[sangres]

Who are you and what have you done with Bulbazak?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ETL, I think PurpleRose's attack on you makes him/her likely town. You are universally townread and he/she knows that would put him/her in the spotlight which makes it a bad idea as scum. I could see that he/she had suppressed suspicion of you early on when pushing on TIP. It seems only natural that once provoked enough that it breaks the surface, he/she would go for you. I find it coming from a town place.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

No bulb. There's two ways this is going to end:
1) TPR get's lynched.
2) TPR replaces out.

Actually, a 3rd, if neither of those occur,

I

will replace out.

[Bulbazak]

Who are you and what have you done with Bulbazak?

I decided to try something different this game.

P-edit: ETL, settle down. You take this too seriously sometimes. Loosen up and have fun.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Look, I have a legitimate scum read on TPR. She also happens to be a cunt. While the two are mutually exclusive and the first is my reason for voting her, I also want her the fuck out of this game, so I'm not moving on this.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

And I find it odd that someone who has meta'd me as extensively you have during the two games we've played together doesn't have a pretty damn good grasp of my variances en hydra.

That doesn't answer my question at all about me expecting you to know that I discuss reads with others.

I am aware of variances based on hydras. I've noticed that even in a hydra, when you are town, you spend a lot of time sorting players out, asking probing questions and developing reads. While I certainly think you are capable of replicating those aspects of your playstyle especially in your more recent scumgames, I feel that this game you fell back into your old scum meta of lurking and being passive. I am not sure how much of it has to do with the fact that you are in a hydra and that you perhaps expected Nacho to take the lead.

As it happens, I called her town in the one game we've played, not too long after she replaced in on day 1. I went back and looked. I couldn't really tell if being townread by me at that point got her back up, but she was scumreading my slot for other reasons. Buldermar can be a little abrasive.

Okay. What is the conclusion that you are trying to make?

[Bulbazak]

Look, I have a legitimate scum read on TPR.

Ok, calm down and walk me through it.

[sangres]

And I find it odd that someone who has meta'd me as extensively you have during the two games we've played together doesn't have a pretty damn good grasp of my variances en hydra.

That doesn't answer my question at all about me expecting you to know that I discuss reads with others.

I am aware of variances based on hydras. I've noticed that even in a hydra, when you are town, you spend a lot of time sorting players out, asking probing questions and developing reads. While I certainly think you are capable of replicating those aspects of your playstyle especially in your more recent scumgames, I feel that this game you fell back into your old scum meta of lurking and being passive. I am not sure how much of it has to do with the fact that you are in a hydra and that you perhaps expected Nacho to take the lead.

Actually, I was surprised to find out the game had started. I need to fix the email redirects for this account.

But, I do have a phobia about screwing up in this hydra. We've wound up under severe pressure in both of the games we've played so far, and in at least one case it was mostly due to my play. In the other case it was probably due to the 7/5 town-scum starting ratio.

As it happens, I called her town in the one game we've played, not too long after she replaced in on day 1. I went back and looked. I couldn't really tell if being townread by me at that point got her back up, but she was scumreading my slot for other reasons. Buldermar can be a little abrasive.

Okay. What is the conclusion that you are trying to make?

I'm curious if I missed a nuance when she and I last played. I've semi sworn off doing extensive meta dives for a while, and I feel pretty good about my read atm, so I probably won't make scratching that itch a priority.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay, I won't discount that I could have been wrong so I'll take more time to sort you guys out. Where are you at regarding your reads on all of the players? I'd like to discuss those.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Spoiler: TPR

Stupid scum would vote tip. you dont like that i'm not 100% in the game on page 2 when i JUST bookmarked it and i'm still at work? What are trying to say? Just say you think i'm scum if thats the case, dont try to push some diarrhea.

I think I feel like playing like stupid scum then. I do not like tip's reactions.

BTW is there something I should know about this setup

There is no doctor. Also, Pitoli drew scum.

I'm going to like you, I think.

You realize that if we lynch her and she flips town, you're dead, right?

You need to be more awake when posting

TIP whatcha doin TIP? Your ISO is full of shit. Like actual shit. It's dripping down the screen. You need to come here and clean this up right away.

Fucking nonsense and nothing posts. Horrific.

VOTE: TiP

That took only 5 pages! ETL WOKE UP!

VOTE: Sangres

Not exceptionally scummy but that vote's timing kind of was.

This is one terrible vote.

At this moment, I'm not enthusiastic about the f-16 wagon. It seems to be there for the wrong reasons.

In this one post, she says she suspects TiP because she doesn't like his reactions, but doesn't explain what exactly about the reactions she doesn't like, nor why they indicate scum alignment to her. She buddy's Bulb, and insults me for no justifiable reason. So, that's 3 common and verifiable scum tells right there.

You aren't going to vote yourself, so you are hardly the person I have to convince.

TiP asks her to explain, and instead, she shoots back with this salty reply. So I ask her again. She dodges with this:

Wow. Look at that cop out. He has asked you to justify your suspicion and you shoot back with that?

VOTE: TPR

Yes, more or less. Too often I've seen scum post "why am I scum!?!?!?", and although it goes a little far to count it as a scumtell (it's not hugely accurate, though I believe it's a mark against someone), I think it's a bad idea to get into a discussion about it. It's always going to be drawn out, and in the end you aren't talking to the people you need to be talking to. I've posted I didn't like TIP's reactions, and he's going to disagree. We just did that debate with that result in two posts. We can also draw it out to a page and nobody will be any wiser.

I asked her to expand on her reads and instead she just reiterates that she's not going to.

That's the worst excuse for a scumtell I've ever seen. It benefits town to explain your reads. Scum are either unable or unwilling to do so. Like you, TPR.

You have been asked again, and again you deflect.

Make your case on TIP. Now.

Or my vote stays and rightly so.

I do understand how this game works. I am aware that if one wants to convince town, one has to provide reasons. I know mine were minimal. I didn't like TIPs reactions, and that started as soon as post 14.

I also explained you why it's silly to give reasons when the person you accuse is the only one interested in them. It just fills the thread with a pointless debate that nobody wants to read. But you choose to ignore that post and drone on how reasons are protown, because they taught you that in your newbie game.

And I'm happy you've convinced yourself your vote is correct. The thing that worries me about the bolded is that you say your vote will be "right". Not "on scum". It's a small distinction, but an important one. Town want to lynch scum. Scum want their votes to make sense to town, but be wrong. Correct votes are the worst kind.

Wait a second. Are you buddying TIP? Yes you are! That's why you make such a show of this.

Jesus christ, more bullshit. More insults. And still no explanation of why she didn't like TiP's reactions. Saying "post 14" is not an adequate explanation. So I, and others, ask her yet again, to clarify it. Oh but not before she accuses me of buddying TiP, which I wasn't doing, pretty obviously. She has been attempting to discredit me this entire time and it's been leading up to her vote on me which isn't even based on scumtells NOR anything I actually did! Based on lies...

Yes, I was right, I like you.

"He's attacking my attacker so I will buddy him."

Seen the quote I said this with, this is rather nonsensical. Bulba is explaining the situation around F-16, and I agree with him.

also, it was a continuation of a post before I liked of him, before he got into an argument with you whether what people say also matters or if it's just their votes, so apparently I'm so good at this buddying thing that I did it before you even attacked me!

Or I like the way he's thinking and I'm telling people. You love people who post reads, don't you ETL?

STOP BEING A FUCKING IDIOT TIP.

no please go on. I want to see ETL struggle to defend you. It's rather funny.

And further, I seem to have one massive disconnect with this town.

When I see someone post omg, it was just a joke, at an accusation, alarm bells ring everywhere. So when I post "I don't like his reaction, and that starts with post 14", that's what I mean. For the rest, he's doing nothing at all, laughs everything away. When he gets voted, mister tip has the idea that it might be funny to ask why he's scummy.

On the other hand, I don't really care if this gets drawn out. There are worse things then getting hammered 10 pages into the game, then I can move on to another game. If nobody here realizes that "better write a case or I'm voting you" is as terrible as a "correct" vote, I don't know what to tell you. Setting possible scum an ultimatum is silly. They write up stuff and your thread is empty as you don't dare to actually vote, your legitimate reason is gone. As scum, it's hilarious though. Hope the town person gets flustered and vote him with a completely "legit" vote.

But if it makes you feel good, please continue with it

The bolded is the first time she even bothers to explain herself. I never said I was voting her for "not writing a case". I simply asked her to explain herself and she deflected with a bunch of noise. How is that NOT scum-motivated?

If nobody here realizes that "better write a case or I'm voting you" is as terrible as a "correct" vote, I don't know what to tell you. Setting possible scum an ultimatum is silly. They write up stuff and your thread is empty as you don't dare to actually vote, your legitimate reason is gone.

Since this is obviously directed at me, the secondary implication of my "ultimatum" was that if your case sucked, I'd still vote you.
So get to writing that case and stop making excuses.

And further, I seem to have one massive disconnect with this town. When I see someone post omg, it was just a joke, at an accusation, alarm bells ring everywhere. So when I post "I don't like his reaction, and that starts with post 14", that's what I mean. For the rest, he's doing nothing at all, laughs everything away. When he gets voted, mister tip has the idea that it might be funny to ask why he's scummy.

That's the third time it's in a post now and I think that's about enough. That tip trolls and keeps asking for a case is his good right, but I expected you'd at least read my posts if you asked for something. Same with ETL. I posted my reason, (given, it was a single line), and the answer is "stop deflecting give the case".

Uh. Yes. Stop deflecting and explain yourself.

At which point I'm more or less done trying to make an effort. Tbh, I don't know why I'm making this post. It's not as if you are going to read it and think "hmm, i was completely wrong about tip, I should vote him".

"I gave you shitty response after shitty response and that should be good enough. I shouldn't have to actually scumhunt." And she calls us lazy...

It's funny that you are "pissed off about people's laziness" when, besides TiP, you've been the only other unhelpful player. You had to be asked multiple times by multiple people to justify your read on TiP before you came up with 243. So, you really don't have a leg to stand on with calling other people lazy. You didn't even join the thread until long after the rest of us here had a dialogue going.

And 243 said the same thing in two lines what 193 did in one. Which got within five minutes a bit all caps post that I should stop deflecting. At which point I'm indeed starting to question whether you are actually reading the game or that the only thing about 193 that caught your eye was the fact that I used your name.

Since when is "I didn't like his reaction" an explanation deserving of a vote? It's not. Oh. More insults. Yes, this is really redeeming town behavior.

actually.

It's the same as your response to bulba's post about f-16. You say agree and then show you still don't get it. It's not particulary hard, we were hardly the only ones that got it, including f16 himself. But you are contrary there. It's the same around the tip case. You simply do not get the lines of thought. I think the thing that frustrates me when talking to you is that your mindset is different. You simply do not think as town.

vote etl

I don't see this vote changing anytime soon.

WTF. More insults instead of explanations. Oh yeah, but that makes me scum that I'm asking and asking and asking for clarification and get nothing but rudeness in return.

@F-16, I don't say you are bad. I specifically avoided saying that. You posted a lot and there were good intentions around that, but at the time of my post I didn't care too much about that. The way you post invites votes though, it's not very smooth. That's fine. What I didn't think was fine was that it moved you towards the default wagon people could agree on if their first choice failed, which was what I was seeing and which I thought was a bad thing. It doesn't say a lot in terms of vote analysis, the fact that a big portion of the town agrees without all that many reasons around means scum are bound to be among them, and a wagon that around the start of day one is favored by scum is likely to be on town. Scum will try to avoid having the default wagon end up on one of them, there's no good reason for it since there are enough candidates to end up as a lynch d1 generally.

So I kind of said everything I though in that post already. I didn't white knight you because you are a bad player, or because I liked your posts particulary. I found in necessary to say that the way the rest was moving around you made you likely town and that it would be a bad idea to keep going like that.

Further, I don't see the need for anything more then that I didn't like his reactions and that it started with post 14. Which was indeed what I posted.

Bulb, please explain to me how this is not scum.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

F-16, sangres, the scumread people who townread me thing is fairly recent. Check my last 2 or 3 games. And it's not that simple. It depends on how it's done.

[sangres]

Nacho may be ready to talk reads. I'm not yet.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F-16, sangres, the scumread people who townread me thing is fairly recent. Check my last 2 or 3 games. And it's not that simple. It depends on how it's done.

What are you referring to, exactly?

[Bulbazak]

In this one post, she says she suspects TiP because she doesn't like his reactions, but doesn't explain what exactly about the reactions she doesn't like, nor why they indicate scum alignment to her.

Then why didn't you ask her about what she didn't like about his reaction?

TiP asks her to explain, and instead, she shoots back with this salty reply. So I ask her again. She dodges with this:

Wow. Look at that cop out. He has asked you to justify your suspicion and you shoot back with that?

VOTE: TPR

Yes, more or less. Too often I've seen scum post "why am I scum!?!?!?", and although it goes a little far to count it as a scumtell (it's not hugely accurate, though I believe it's a mark against someone), I think it's a bad idea to get into a discussion about it. It's always going to be drawn out, and in the end you aren't talking to the people you need to be talking to. I've posted I didn't like TIP's reactions, and he's going to disagree. We just did that debate with that result in two posts. We can also draw it out to a page and nobody will be any wiser.

I asked her to expand on her reads and instead she just reiterates that she's not going to.

You didn't ask her to explain her scumread on TIP. You attacked her on her reply and voted her.

I never said I was voting her for "not writing a case". I simply asked her to explain herself and she deflected with a bunch of noise. How is that NOT scum-motivated?

I think I'm beginning to see what's going on here.

Since when is "I didn't like his reaction" an explanation deserving of a vote? It's not.

It's a good enough reason this early in the game.

Oh yeah, but that makes me scum that I'm asking and asking and asking for clarification and get nothing but rudeness in return.

To be fair, you're dishing it out as well.

@F-16, I don't say you are bad. I specifically avoided saying that. You posted a lot and there were good intentions around that, but at the time of my post I didn't care too much about that. The way you post invites votes though, it's not very smooth. That's fine. What I didn't think was fine was that it moved you towards the default wagon people could agree on if their first choice failed, which was what I was seeing and which I thought was a bad thing. It doesn't say a lot in terms of vote analysis, the fact that a big portion of the town agrees without all that many reasons around means scum are bound to be among them, and a wagon that around the start of day one is favored by scum is likely to be on town. Scum will try to avoid having the default wagon end up on one of them, there's no good reason for it since there are enough candidates to end up as a lynch d1 generally.

So I kind of said everything I though in that post already. I didn't white knight you because you are a bad player, or because I liked your posts particulary. I found in necessary to say that the way the rest was moving around you made you likely town and that it would be a bad idea to keep going like that.

Further, I don't see the need for anything more then that I didn't like his reactions and that it started with post 14. Which was indeed what I posted.

Bulb, please explain to me how this is not scum.

I'm obviously not seeing what you're seeing. How is this scummy?

ETL, to be perfectly honest, I think this fight between you and Rose is based on a series of misunderstandings, and because neither of you are really clarifying like you mean to or asking the questions you mean to, this feud keeps spiraling out of control. Now, can you please calm down, take a deep breath, and try to work together? And if you don't think you can do that, then start again from the beginning, try to be as clear as you both can, and don't resort to insults.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

As it happens, I called her town in the one game we've played, not too long after she replaced in on day 1. I went back and looked. I couldn't really tell if being townread by me at that point got her back up, but she was scumreading my slot for other reasons. Buldermar can be a little abrasive.

Okay. What is the conclusion that you are trying to make?

I'm curious if I missed a nuance when she and I last played. I've semi sworn off doing extensive meta dives for a while, and I feel pretty good about my read atm, so I probably won't make scratching that itch a priority.

This. I see you guys debating it like it's the town tell for me, and I don't believe it would be, as I'd do it as scum too. I can't think of my last completed scum game, but my best was uh.. in my wiki, before I learned how to play better.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@F-16, I don't say you are bad. I specifically avoided saying that. You posted a lot and there were good intentions around that, but at the time of my post I didn't care too much about that. The way you post invites votes though, it's not very smooth. That's fine. What I didn't think was fine was that it moved you towards the default wagon people could agree on if their first choice failed, which was what I was seeing and which I thought was a bad thing. It doesn't say a lot in terms of vote analysis, the fact that a big portion of the town agrees without all that many reasons around means scum are bound to be among them, and a wagon that around the start of day one is favored by scum is likely to be on town. Scum will try to avoid having the default wagon end up on one of them, there's no good reason for it since there are enough candidates to end up as a lynch d1 generally.

So I kind of said everything I though in that post already. I didn't white knight you because you are a bad player, or because I liked your posts particulary. I found in necessary to say that the way the rest was moving around you made you likely town and that it would be a bad idea to keep going like that.

Further, I don't see the need for anything more then that I didn't like his reactions and that it started with post 14. Which was indeed what I posted.

Bulb, please explain to me how this is not scum.

I'm obviously not seeing what you're seeing. How is this scummy?

ETL, I would also like to know what about this is scummy.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Not that one post, the whole thing. How can you not see that deflecting and essentially refusing to explain a read is scummy?

And no, she came into this thread insulting me from the get go. She's rude and nasty. Either it gets resolved by her replacing out or getting force replaced or lynched, or I'm done. I'm not voting anyone else until that happens.

And if you feel the need to lynch me for that, then so be it. I don't want to play a game she's involved in anyway.

[Lastsurvivor]

That's the third time it's in a post now and I think that's about enough. That tip trolls and keeps asking for a case is his good right, but I expected you'd at least read my posts if you asked for something. Same with ETL. I posted my reason, (given, it was a single line), and the answer is "stop deflecting give the case".

At which point I'm more or less done trying to make an effort. Tbh, I don't know why I'm making this post. It's not as if you are going to read it and think "hmm, i was completely wrong about tip, I should vote him".

Sorry, when I read your "case" I thought you were just complaining about how TiP is trolling, not why TiP is scum.

Troll =/= scum

Ok so what do you think about any other players?
PEDIT: Other than ETL I guess

Hey, I played in that game!

Nacho !

I knew you were scum in that game I should have never let you convince me otherwise. =(

I have a feeling TPR might just be a cranky flower instead of scum.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Looking back at The Purple Rose's posts, I think that his/her posts are really vague and non-specific.

@ TPR, what do you mean when you say that my posts are not "smooth" or "invite votes?"

[Bulbazak]

How can you not see that deflecting and essentially refusing to explain a read is scummy?

Because she is not doing any of that. And you've just made this personal, instead of something game related. You really need to calm down.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Because she is not doing any of that.

SHE IS. ARE YOU BLIND?

[Bulbazak]

She can't be doing any of that if you didn't ask the questions in the first place.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Ok.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

And that's a reason not to share your thoughts. I understand now.

I'm not going to replace out of respect for BBmolla. But I will be taking a break from this for a day or so. It is also halloween and I have plans and shit. I do expect to have civilized conversation with players, which she seems incapable of doing. I apologize for retaliating, and I won't do it again. However, if she cannot keep the insults to herself, don't be surprised if I don't respond.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

ETL, you haven't said anything about Sangres yet. What is your read on that slot?