Micro 252: There Is No Doctor - END

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Yes. I think Chaos is scum along with one of Bulbazak or Sangres but I am not sure who.

[Bulbazak]

Why would he be so concerned with being townread as scum?

You're joking, right?

What do you think of our townread on pitoli?

I wasn't aware you had one.

What are your thoughts on pitoli now?

She still hasn't posted enough for me to get a strong sense either way. I'm still leaning scum. What Chaos pointed out about her wanting to be scanned by the cop is a pretty strong indicator, imo.

My push to get you to read me was because I suspected that you wanted to push both my and Pitoli's lynches even after one flipped town.

I was basing that off of the theory that only 1 scum would be on the TIP wagon. I had a scumread on Pitoli, so naturally, I started with a town lean on you. I also didn't think your early approach to the wagon was as scummy as others thought it was as well.

You are not considering the fact that both Pitoli and I could be town and you are wrong about both. That would take a lot of re-evaluation and effort to consider but is the better play.

Again, I hate the "You aren't even considering that we

could

be town." defense. To me, that's an indicator that you are scraping the bottom of the barrel in defending yourself, and I'd honestly expect that more from scum.

P-edit: That's nice, Pitoli. Do you have anything of substance, besides mimicking what I've said?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Asking to be investigated has a town motivation, scum motivation (from someone who doesn't believe that they will be investigated) and a GF motivation. Jumping to a GF motivation is a bad reason for suspicion. Chaos's case is terrible. The fact that you are saying he has good points is troubling.

"

Again, I hate the "You aren't even considering that we could be town." defense.

"

If you hate it, you are going about it the wrong way. As town, you

should

be considering it. If a player is not considering the possibility of another being town, it strongly indicates that they are scum who made up their mind. Town are always reconsidering and re-evaluating. Pointing it out is not scummy either.

[Bulbazak]

Asking to be investigated has a town motivation, scum motivation (from someone who doesn't believe that they will be investigated) and a GF motivation. Jumping to a GF motivation is a bad reason for suspicion. Chaos's case is terrible. The fact that you are saying he has good points is troubling.

There is no town motivation for asking to be investigated by the cop, because town would know that they are wasting an investigation that could be used to find scum, and therefore lynch scum, which furthers their wincon. Asking to be scanned by a cop is selfish at best and scummy at worst.

If you hate it, you are going about it the wrong way. As town, you

should

be considering it. If a player is not considering the possibility of another being town, it strongly indicates that they are scum who made up their mind. Town are always reconsidering and re-evaluating. Pointing it out is not scummy either.

Naturally I am evaluating events in my mind. I've changed my mind before based on the events in the thread. However, saying "You are not even considering that we

could

be town." is the lowest form of defense and a sign of desperation.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

There is no town motivation for asking to be investigated by the cop, because town would know that they are wasting an investigation that could be used to find scum, and therefore lynch scum, which furthers their wincon. Asking to be scanned by a cop is selfish at best and scummy at worst.

I am not sure if you are one of those "

town shouldn't worry about looking like town

" people. But there is town motivation in asking to be cleared if the player in question feels that they would avoid a mislynch that way. Avoiding mislynches furthers the town wincon. If the player also feels that they can lead the town to victory by eliminating them as a potential mislynch, that also serves the town wincon.

Naturally I am evaluating events in my mind. I've changed my mind before based on the events in the thread. However, saying "You are not even considering that we

could

be town." is the lowest form of defense and a sign of desperation.

This hasn't shown through your posts. In all of your posts, there is never any uncertainty or change of mind which I find scummy. Not liking a defense/attack which points out something you should be doing is bad.

[Bulbazak]

I am not sure if you are one of those "

town shouldn't worry about looking like town

" people.

I am one of those "Town should be looking for scum." type of people.

If the player also feels that they can lead the town to victory by eliminating them as a potential mislynch, that also serves the town wincon.

Pitoli doesn't seem like one of those players.

This hasn't shown through your posts. In all of your posts, there is never any uncertainty or change of mind which I find scummy.

The fact that I wasn't sure what to make of you and then came to the conclusion that you're scum shows how my reads change based on new data. But that is too inconvenient for you, huh?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I am not sure if you are one of those "

town shouldn't worry about looking like town

" people.

I am one of those "Town should be looking for scum." type of people.

If the player also feels that they can lead the town to victory by eliminating them as a potential mislynch, that also serves the town wincon.

Pitoli doesn't seem like one of those players.

I don't think an attempt to avoid a lynch is a scumtell. I think it is null. You seem to be one of those people who think "survivalism" is a scumtell - as if town don't care about being mislynched. That is not alignment indicative (although bad). But what gave you the impression that Pitoli is like that too? Have you played with her before?

The fact that I wasn't sure what to make of you and then came to the conclusion that you're scum shows how my reads change based on new data. But that is too inconvenient for you, huh?

That's not what I am referring to. I am talking about going back and forth on reads and considering the possibility that you may be wrong. I don't see any of that. I see you coming to a conclusion that Pitoli is scum. I see you noticing the resistance to her lynch that I and Nacho are putting up. Then I see Pitoli's paranoia of me. Then I see you going for me as I become a more viable target. I asked you to point out exactly what you find off about my play and I am still not seeing anything more than misinterpretations that you have made that I clarified.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

* I mean to say that thinking that survivalist tendencies are scummy is bad (some town think like that too), not the survivalist tendency itself.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think an attempt to avoid a lynch is a scumtell. I think it is null. You seem to be one of those people who think "survivalism" is a scumtell - as if town don't care about being mislynched. That is not alignment indicative (although bad).

When did I start talking about survivalism? I said that town's #1 priority should be finding and lynching scum. Will town be worried about being lynched? Yes, but not to the extent that scum will. If a player puts all of their energy toward just defending themselves and does nothing else, naturally, I'm going to think something is wrong.

But what gave you the impression that Pitoli is like that too?

When did I ever call Pitoli survivalistic? When? I just said that she doesn't appear to be the type of player to want to be cleared in order to lead the town to victory, mainly because she's not trying to lead the town whatsoever. She's pretty much staying in the shadows.

Have you played with her before?

What does this have to do with anything? I don't like the way you are using this to misrep and attack me, especially since we never once were discussing survivalism.

That's not what I am referring to. I am talking about going back and forth on reads and considering the possibility that you may be wrong. I don't see any of that.

Yes, I'm not wishy-washy concerning my reads. Imagine that.

Then I see you going for me as I become a more viable target.

If that was the case, I would have voted for you earlier in the day.

I asked you to point out exactly what you find off about my play and I am still not seeing anything more than misinterpretations that you have made that I clarified.

What I find off about your play is that I'm having a hard time seeing the town motivation behind it. Several of your stances seem more geared toward protecting yourself and your partner, rather than actually finding scum. Overall, your play feels fake.

[TheIrishPope]

VOTE: TheIrishPope

Why vote the innocent child?

You think that's RVS? With that tone?
And you don't need a vote on you to omgus someone

So you're telling me you had a sudden epiphany about a vote made on page 1?!? And instead of continuing to push a scumread, you decided to ~make a point~ about something long dead and gone?

I don't understand the question.

Why did post 24 warrant a vote so long after the fact?

Oooooh well I felt that it was the best vote because:
F-16 was being scumtastic
I had nothing else to do

Holy fuck F-16 is waffling so much
I can't see Chaos's entrance coming from scum
The best lynch for today is obviously F-16.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I disagree with your scumread on Pitoli. I pointed out why her play makes sense from a town perspective. Read her reaction to Sangres voting her. Nacho pointed this out as well. I am concerned that you are not re-evaluating your stances and instead merely trying to fit events into your already formed preconceptions. You never at any point had a change of mind, or think that you may have been wrong. Chaos comes up with a terribad case that you quickly jump on because he agrees with your view. You are not considering how absolutely rubbish it is for him to suggest that Pitoli could be GF. You merely seem happy that you have found one more supporter to further your agenda.

I can absolutely see Pitoli wanting to be cleared so that she doesn't get suspected and mislynched regardless of whether she intends to lead the town or not. This doesn't indicate scum motivation. It indicates that a player does not want to be lynched.

I defend townreads much more than I attack scumreads. Scum to me are found through POE. I also have been trying hard to figure out whether you are scum (i.e. scumhunting). You just don't seem to like it because you are the target of my attacks.

Point out to me where you changed your mind on any player or had revelations as the game went on - or how you had felt that any of your initial reads were wrong as new information cropped up.

[Bulbazak]

Read her reaction to Sangres voting her.

It was OMGUS. That's not going to make me reverse a scumread.

I am concerned that you are not re-evaluating your stances and instead merely trying to fit events into your already formed preconceptions. You never at any point had a change of mind, or think that you may have been wrong.

I went back and forth on you quite a bit. I settled on scum.

Chaos comes up with a terribad case that you quickly jump on because he agrees with your view.

Chaos's case on Pitoli was actually pretty good, no matter how much you try to discredit it.

You are not considering how absolutely rubbish it is for him to suggest that Pitoli could be GF.

Why is it rubbish to suggest that there may be a GF, and that Pitoli may be it?

I can absolutely see Pitoli wanting to be cleared so that she doesn't get suspected and mislynched regardless of whether she intends to lead the town or not. This doesn't indicate scum motivation. It indicates that a player does not want to be lynched.

She's never been under too much pressure. Wanting a cop clear seems a little much, don't you think?

Point out to me where you changed your mind on any player or had revelations as the game went on - or how you had felt that any of your initial reads were wrong as new information cropped up.

I've told you about the example in this game, but there are plenty of examples in other games, such as when I realized BT was town based on his reactions to me in NY163.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

It was OMGUS. That's not going to make me reverse a scumread.

It is not THAT she OMGUSed. It was the way she did it. The way she seemed confused as to what was going on, and why a good player like Nacho is bandwagon-voting her. Why would she do this as scum? What motivation is there to throw a poorly reasoned OMGUS on someone who very likely won't get lynched Day 1? And consider her later behavior: she is completely paranoid of me and continues to suspect me even as I defend her. She is worried that I could be scum trying to associate with her.

I am concerned that you are not re-evaluating your stances and instead merely trying to fit events into your already formed preconceptions. You never at any point had a change of mind, or think that you may have been wrong.

I went back and forth on you quite a bit. I settled on scum.

I haven't seen any of it in thread. Which posts made you think town and which made you think scum?

Chaos comes up with a terribad case that you quickly jump on because he agrees with your view.

Chaos's case on Pitoli was actually pretty good, no matter how much you try to discredit it.

I have never seen a bigger pile of junk. The fact that he is not even willing to push the case should show you that he is scum.

You are not considering how absolutely rubbish it is for him to suggest that Pitoli could be GF.

Why is it rubbish to suggest that there may be a GF, and that Pitoli may be it?

Because he took something that is completely null and attempted to paint it as scummy. GF's are fairly uncommon. To pick up on a null post, speculate about the poster being a GF and accusing her of being scum is rubbish.

I can absolutely see Pitoli wanting to be cleared so that she doesn't get suspected and mislynched regardless of whether she intends to lead the town or not. This doesn't indicate scum motivation. It indicates that a player does not want to be lynched.

She's never been under too much pressure. Wanting a cop clear seems a little much, don't you think?

She had 3 votes at the time including one from the strongest player in the game.

I've looked back to see her exact quote: "

At this point I welcome any daycop (or night cop) to have their way with me

"

It is just a passing remark considering the gamestate and how you faked a day cop guilty on her. It is nothing scummy. Trying to paint it as scummy is either terrible town or scum.

Point out to me where you changed your mind on any player or had revelations as the game went on - or how you had felt that any of your initial reads were wrong as new information cropped up.

I've told you about the example in this game, but there are plenty of examples in other games, such as when I realized BT was town based on his reactions to me in NY163.

Why the hell are you pointing me to

other

games? I don't want to figure out your affiliation in a different game.

[pitoli]

Omg multiquotes I never do these

My concern with your play has been that I disagree with the conclusions you've made so much that I feel they are unjustified. Your FOS on Pitoli is one such example. I also don't like that switched to me after Pitoli expressed suspicion of me. It seemed like you thought you could get her support in lynching me while there was no way you would get mine in lynching her so you thought I was the more viable lynch since I was more confident in my townreads and would defend them harder. What made you change from saying one of me/Pitoli are scum but not both to having us as a likely scumteam?

I am talking about going back and forth on reads and considering the possibility that you may be wrong. I don't see any of that. I see you coming to a conclusion that Pitoli is scum. I see you noticing the resistance to her lynch that I and Nacho are putting up. Then I see Pitoli's paranoia of me. Then I see you going for me as I become a more viable target. I asked you to point out exactly what you find off about my play and I am still not seeing anything more than misinterpretations that you have made that I clarified.

actually to the contrary, I rather felt that Bulbazak's paranoia of you F-16 reared its head before mine did. Over the last several pages, Bulba would drop little hints of how he felt about your posts, and I found myself mostly agreeing. I don't think it was an opportunistic jump after I voiced my opinion, and it's not like I was alone in that opinion either. Either way, that's one thing pulling me in the direction of genuine town-Bulba, because I felt that we had synced up slightly when it came to your posts. You still give me the heebie jeebies.

P-edit: That's nice, Pitoli. Do you have anything of substance, besides mimicking what I've said?

How can I mimic anything you've said when you're scumreading me?

She still hasn't posted enough for me to get a strong sense either way. I'm still leaning scum. What Chaos pointed out about her wanting to be scanned by the cop is a pretty strong indicator, imo

Asking to be investigated has a town motivation, scum motivation (from someone who doesn't believe that they will be investigated) and a GF motivation. Jumping to a GF motivation is a bad reason for suspicion. Chaos's case is terrible. The fact that you are saying he has good points is troubling.

Asking to be scanned by a cop is selfish at best and scummy at worst.

on this, it was a joke in response to Bulbazak's guilty result joke, but like all jokes there was a grain of truth inside it. Bulba's right, I DON'T want an investigation wasted on me, but at the same time you know - what townie actually

minds

being cleared? Like that would be kind of nice (

and don't fucking lie - you all would feel the same

). Even when you're mad at an investigative role for wasting a night on you, it really does give you one less thing to worry about. I feel like I've been on the defensive all day long and it would free me up to look at some other things. But idk now that i've typed this up I feel like you're gonna have a field day with it.

Pitoli doesn't seem like one of those players.

But what gave you the impression that Pitoli is like that too?

When did I ever call Pitoli survivalistic? When? I just said that she doesn't appear to be the type of player to want to be cleared in order to lead the town to victory, mainly because she's not trying to lead the town whatsoever. She's pretty much staying in the shadows.

This is pretty unfair. I'm like you, Bulba, in that I don't wear my thoughts on my sleeve and it takes some questioning to get certain opinions from me. But I've been speaking up, sharing my reads when something occurs to me, and overall been trying to participate in the discussion (even as some of it revolves around me). If there's one thing I know about my town play, it's this: I'm not a town leader. I lack the experience, confidence and, very often, the persuasiveness to push things I want to push through. But just because I'm not usually leading town doesn't mean I'm scum. And it doesn't mean I'm useless. So fuck you!

[Bulbazak]

It is not THAT she OMGUSed. It was the way she did it. The way she seemed confused as to what was going on, and why a good player like Nacho is bandwagon-voting her. Why would she do this as scum?

Gee, I can't imagine why scum would OMGUS and act all emotional and stuff. It's not like they're trying to manipulate town or anything.

What motivation is there to throw a poorly reasoned OMGUS on someone who very likely won't get lynched Day 1?

You seem to not realize what the purpose of an OMGUS is. Surely you're not this daft.

And consider her later behavior: she is completely paranoid of me and continues to suspect me even as I defend her. She is worried that I could be scum trying to associate with her.

They call that distancing. Maybe you've heard of it.

I am concerned that you are not re-evaluating your stances and instead merely trying to fit events into your already formed preconceptions. You never at any point had a change of mind, or think that you may have been wrong.

I went back and forth on you quite a bit. I settled on scum.

I haven't seen any of it in thread. Which posts made you think town and which made you think scum?

What part of "I don't post every train of thought in the thread." don't you understand? I was wanting to think you were town due to the TIP wagon theory, and the fact that I had a scumread on Pitoli. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I was having a hard time reconciling your play with a town mindset.

Chaos comes up with a terribad case that you quickly jump on because he agrees with your view.

Chaos's case on Pitoli was actually pretty good, no matter how much you try to discredit it.

I have never seen a bigger pile of junk. The fact that he is not even willing to push the case should show you that he is scum.

He's voting Pitoli currently. I'd call that pushing his case.

Because he took something that is completely null and attempted to paint it as scummy. GF's are fairly uncommon. To pick up on a null post, speculate about the poster being a GF and accusing her of being scum is rubbish.

GFs may be uncommon, but they're not unheard of. If someone stated that they wanted the cop to scan them, my first thought would be GF as well.

She had 3 votes at the time including one from the strongest player in the game.

I wouldn't necessarily call Sangres the strongest player in the game. They're a good player, yes, but for awhile they didn't have much of a presence in the game. Why are you buddying up to them?

Trying to paint it as scummy is either terrible town or scum.

Sorry to break it to you, but wanting the cop to scan you

is

scummy.

Why the hell are you pointing me to

other

games? I don't want to figure out your affiliation in a different game.

This is funny coming from a player who focuses a lot on meta.

[Bulbazak]

P-edit: That's nice, Pitoli. Do you have anything of substance, besides mimicking what I've said?

How can I mimic anything you've said when you're scumreading me?

Compare this:

One scum in {F-16, Bulbazak, Sangres}. Yes? Yes.

to this:

I have Pitoli and one of {you, Sangres, Chaos}.

This is pretty unfair. I'm like you, Bulba, in that I don't wear my thoughts on my sleeve and it takes some questioning to get certain opinions from me. But I've been speaking up, sharing my reads when something occurs to me, and overall been trying to participate in the discussion (even as some of it revolves around me). If there's one thing I know about my town play, it's this: I'm not a town leader. I lack the experience, confidence and, very often, the persuasiveness to push things I want to push through. But just because I'm not usually leading town doesn't mean I'm scum. And it doesn't mean I'm useless. So fuck you!

Fair enough.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pitoli, I guess I made a mistake defending you then. In my last completed game, I had at least two strong townreads and didn't defend them hard enough for fear of alienating the rest of the town. They both ended up lynched. But me agreeing with the town and letting go when I needed to made me look town as fuck. I tried to rectify the mistake in this game by defending players even harder. If the only thing that is doing is for you to have the "heebie-jeebies" about me and not helping town, I guess I should have just not voiced my opinion and let you hang.

The overall effect of me defending you is to derail your wagon and start one on me. You think I am dumb enough as scum to put myself on the chopping block defending a player that doesn't want to be defended?

I don't know if Bulbazak is scum or town. I find it incredibly odd that you are agreeing with his attack and start FOSing me for defending you against it when the attack is rather baseless and unreasonable.

[pitoli]

Oh, sorry. I completely missed 377 while reading.

[pitoli]

I don't know if Bulbazak is scum or town. I find it incredibly odd that you are agreeing with his attack and start FOSing me for defending you against it when the attack is rather baseless and unreasonable.

It really isn't unreasonable though. All game, you've been shouting at people for not considering why XYZ wouldn't come from a town mindset. Maybe you need to consider why your actions wouldn't come from a scum mindset.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Okay fine. I am sorry I defended a player as terrible as you are. I will learn from this experience and never do so again.

[Bulbazak]

The overall effect of me defending you is to derail your wagon and start one on me. You think I am dumb enough as scum to put myself on the chopping block defending a player that doesn't want to be defended?

Except she really wasn't in danger of being lynched. So there was no point in you defending her when you did, unless you wanted the towncred.

[pitoli]

some healthy paranoia = terrible gameplay

gotcha

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Not "healthy paranoia." It is quite obvious that Bulbazak is throwing shitty attacks at you and I am calling him out on it. To not recognize when an attack on you and for whatever ABSURD reason siding with your attacker when someone called them out on it is bad play.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pitoli, do you also agree with Chaos's attack on you?

[Bulbazak]

Not "healthy paranoia." It is quite obvious that Bulbazak is throwing shitty attacks at you and I am calling him out on it. To not recognize when an attack on you and for whatever ABSURD reason siding with your attacker when someone called them out on it is bad play.

But how could she know that you're not WKing her?