Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night (Game Over)

[Varsoon]

Why did you claim PGO?


Sorry about all this inquiry, it just really threw me off. I'll probably go full-crazy and dig every one of my games to find what claim it reminded me of, only for it to be dejavu.

[pieguyn]

when I quote something you've done and say "no thx" or something similar, that is me directly saying your argument is false. there is no need to "critically respond" to something that makes no sense. if I do you can just twist my words around. I'm putting an end to it by just calling immediately that it makes no sense.

re: "scumpainting": see above. rather than talk about something that doesn't make any sense, I don't bother. for the specific quotes where you claimed I "scumpainted" rather than responded to something you said, I was pointing out other stuff you did that was scummy.

re: working with others: just questioning people is not working with them. I'm working with BROs and morph cause I'm townreading them atm and I feel I can trust them. if I'm wrong on them I also might be able to change my read on them too if something doesn't add up.

Pieguy:

Please don't respond to me point-by-point like our last exchange has gone. It's an exhausting format of back-and-forth, and I don't think it's a particularly exciting read. Please do answer my questions, though.

what the crap? how the hell am I supposed to answer your questions without at least making some reference to the question you asked? because of this, that would create an inherent point-by-point structure in my post. if not, you could say "you ignored question xxx" - if I did, you could say "you weren't supposed to respond like this". I get the feeling you knew this and tried to set this up so you could paint me as scummy no matter which one I chose.

not only that but what's with the sudden politeness? it seems like you were afraid you'd get called out for being too abrasive and changed your plans.

So, your townread on BRO is so strong, 6 pages into the game, that the very case you make for me being scum (hoping onto a wagon while parroting the logic of others in a way that looks artificial) somehow can't be made against him?

why should I bother making a case on him when you're way more likely to be scum?

Also, according to your original post in this game, you -did- have a townread on me, which means that your townreads are subject to change. Why did your read on me change to scum, whereas your read on BRO, which should have followed the same logic, did not change?

that post wasn't serious and I think it's damn obvious it's not serious when 3 of the people hadn't even posted yet. quit reaching ~

You're trying to appeal to the logic that I put forth

in order despite the fact that just posts ago you said of that very same logic, "anyone on the wagon is responsible for anything that might happen as a result of wagoning him." and also made the (awkward) argument that taking a typical defense for joining a wagon is scummy. Your vote on me is a push for a swing-wagon, as it presents me in opposition to the growing zmon wagon and tries to make a case out of it. If you truly wanted me to elaborate on my intentions for voting zmon, you'd ask me about it, rather than damning me out of the gate.

yes I did use your logic that I claimed to be scummy. I'm using your own logic against you in order to demonstrate the inherent contradictions in what you're saying. that's how I roll ~

bolded: this is exactly what you're accusing me of doing. you're scumpainting me by saying I'm appealing to your logic.

Oho, so here you are being a bastard and trying to turn my words against me, despite making a huge stumble to get there.
First of all, I -voted- zmon, not zmuffin. If you read, I discredit my own read of zmuffin, because it's predicated on scum-reading him as a baseline.
Secondly, I -explained- why I put a vote on zmon. It wasn't simple gut, or 'thinking' he is 'scummy'. Your vote on me wasn't that either, so let's stop trying to change the facts.
Third, I think you'll find that I've put forth and facilitated some pretty thorough discussion in my last few posts, and while I didn't have any direct questions to zmon, I did present criticisms. Should I have spent some time hammering out some questions for him? Sure. Not that it's important, seeing as you jumped at the opportunity to push a wagon on me.

ok wrong name. still doesn't change my point. and likewise, I presented criticisms of what you were doing. and all of a sudden it's scummy when I do it , but not when you do it

[pieguyn]

town: GP, varsoon, psychlone, BRO, mastin
maybe TNE

i don't like how little morph has done anything that didn't feel completely empty in this game, especially considering the amount of posts from them.

i don't like the continued flippancy from thezmon.

i don't like pieguy being confused about stuff that isn't really confusing at all. and the attack on varsoon is pretty meh.

why is my attack on varsoon "meh"? I want a specific explanation with quotes and reasons to show you're not just making this up. everything I said follows directly from stuff he said, so i'm quite sure my logic isn't false.

and you're townreading him, for apparently no reason? your other townreads are somewhat understandable, but this is something I want an explanation for

also I thought my confusion was just "meh" too. why all of a sudden are you disliking it?

[Varsoon]

Ugh, Pieguy, you did exactly the thing I asked you not to do.

As for you saying that earlier readlist wasn't serious...

no I'm pretty sure of those reads ~

I'm dead serious
for now why don't you try to figure out how I got those reads ww

Okay, man.

Here's where I stand on this:
1. I don't really want to keep up this game that's quickly becoming "You did this" "Nuh-uh, YOU did this".
2. It's annoying, and exhausting for not just me, but for the other players who'll have to catch up through all that tripe.

You're being a bit inane, and most of your defense of your play is that "I actually mean X" or "Why should I?" I could spend another long-winded, boring post explaining this, going into detail about it, and why your appeals are faulty, etc etc, but then it just becomes more of what I've explained in points 1 and 2.


We're going to have to agree to disagree, and unless you want to directly ask me any questions, I'm not going to engage further exhausting, fairly-useless discourse.

I stand by my case, and I think I've elaborated my points fairly well.

[zMuffinMan]

Why did you claim PGO?

i'm not very funny and it was the cleverest thing i could think of to start this game :<

is that what you wanted to hear, varsoon? was all this to humiliate me?

I want a specific explanation with quotes

if i wasn't super-tired i might entertain this just to absolutely destroy your case. but not right now. the tl;dr version of it is that your original reasons for voting him weren't good (how is it "better" to bandwagon for absolutely no reason? plus even if giving reasons was in some way scummy, or varsoon was scummy for the way in which he gave reasons, as varsoon has pointed out, why attack just varsoon for it?) and nothing in your push since then has made for a good case.

you're townreading him, for apparently no reason?

nah, i'm townreading him because i like the aggressive responses to you. e.g. while i literally loled when i read, "you're afraid of town-varsoon," that came across as fairly town.

[zMuffinMan]

i also remember thinking, "pieguy has never played with thor."

[Varsoon]

@zMuffin: I'm not expecting to hear anything, I just wanna know why you made that claim. Was it really a joke?
S-sorry if I made you feel bad ;_;

Your avatar is scary

[pieguyn]

As for you saying that earlier readlist wasn't serious...

no I'm pretty sure of those reads ~

I'm dead serious
for now why don't you try to figure out how I got those reads ww

Okay, man.

no shit, if I revealed it wasn't serious right from the gate I wouldn't get any reactions out of anyone

Here's where I stand on this:
1. I don't really want to keep up this game that's quickly becoming "You did this" "Nuh-uh, YOU did this".
2. It's annoying, and exhausting for not just me, but for the other players who'll have to catch up through all that tripe.

You're being a bit inane, and most of your defense of your play is that "I actually mean X" or "Why should I?" I could spend another long-winded, boring post explaining this, going into detail about it, and why your appeals are faulty, etc etc, but then it just becomes more of what I've explained in points 1 and 2.

except that's a perfectly valid defense

We're going to have to agree to disagree, and unless you want to directly ask me any questions, I'm not going to engage further exhausting, fairly-useless discourse.

ok ~

[pieguyn]

tl;dr case on Varsoon:
1. makes an opportunistic jump on zmon
2. when pressured, claims I'm saying everything he does is scummy. also accuses me of doing the exact same thing he did to zmon
3. when I show that's false, tries to redirect onto BROs
4. when that doesn't work, turns back to me. claims I'm discrediting and scumpainting him when he's the one discrediting and scumpainting me. claims my play is inconsistent when I've demonstrated how his play is inconsistent and mine makes sense.
5. uses arguments that blatantly contradict what he's done, and when I show this, claims I'm scummy when I'm turning his own logic against him
6. sets up a dichotomy in which he can say I did the wrong thing no matter what option I choose
7. becomes abrasive and when I call him on it blatantly stops being abrasive

if i wasn't super-tired i might entertain this just to absolutely destroy your case. but not right now. the tl;dr version of it is that your original reasons for voting him weren't good (how is it "better" to bandwagon for absolutely no reason? plus even if giving reasons was in some way scummy, or varsoon was scummy for the way in which he gave reasons, as varsoon has pointed out, why attack just varsoon for it?) and nothing in your push since then has made for a good case.

is the above better?

also, I already explained I had a townread on BROs and I have no reason to push him atm when there's someone who I have a better chance to get something from

[Varsoon]

Man, if you're going to make a case, please don't straight-up lie to town with points like 2, 3, 4, 5, 7.

I really can't stand liars, and I people who suffocate other players piss me off, and I'm trying my best not to explode and just replace out/kill myself like I've done in other games.

The rest of your points are arguable, and I've already argued why they're wrong.

Wheh.
Man.
See, this is way better.

[Varsoon]

EBWOP: and people who suffocate other players.

I was originally going to write something like, "I hate people who..." but I didn't backspace enough.

[zMuffinMan]

@pieguy,

no, not really.

1. what would have needed to happen for you

not

to consider a vote on thezmon opportunistic?
2. the first part isn't even scummy, and you

are

trying to say everything he does is scummy, so uh... yeah. the second part is kind of ironic but i don't really remember what this is referring to.
3. this didn't happen (he did point out the inconsistency in who you're attacking, but it wasn't "redirecting")
4. *shrug*
5. no
6. no
7. so what? this actually looks more town than scummy

plus it's not about whether or not you have a townread on BRO, but whether or not you

actually

think what varsoon did is scummy, and if you do, you should think BRO is equally scummy for it, regardless of your read on him. or double standards. whatever.

[zMuffinMan]

posts like 126, for example, don't exactly help your cause when you claim you're not trying to paint everything he does as scummy

[Varsoon]

@pieguy,

no, not really.

1. what would have needed to happen for you

not

to consider a vote on thezmon opportunistic?
2. the first part isn't even scummy, and you

are

trying to say everything he does is scummy, so uh... yeah. the second part is kind of ironic but i don't really remember what this is referring to.
3. this didn't happen (he did point out the inconsistency in who you're attacking, but it wasn't "redirecting")
4. *shrug*
5. no
6. no
7. so what? this actually looks more town than scummy

plus it's not about whether or not you have a townread on BRO, but whether or not you

actually

think what varsoon did is scummy, and if you do, you should think BRO is equally scummy for it, regardless of your read on him. or double standards. whatever.

This.
This times a million.
I agree with this post in both form and function.

It's like Mastin always says, being succinct is way better than being long-winded and exhaustive. I'd much rather have this sort of short-hand discourse.

[pieguyn]

Man, if you're going to make a case, please don't straight-up lie to town with points like 2, 3, 4, 5, 7.

The rest of your points are arguable, and I've already argued why they're wrong.

I think I've explained my points well enough and I understand them, and the reasoning why they're true, well enough to defend them if anyone wants to know. which is good enough for me

Wheh.
Man.
See, this is way better.

yeah I agree. this style of wall posting came from the first game I played on this site which had like 4 wall posters in there and it's what I got used to, so I'd guess it's a habit of mine. problem is I got used to making all my points via walls plus quote walls fit my scumhunting style so I can't break it. =.=

[pieguyn]

@zmuffin:
1. I don't like your train of thought and I'm thus shutting down this line of questioning right here
2. yes it is, cause it's an invalid argument. there is no reason to believe that "no matter what he did, I'd say it was scummy". and before you go saying "false logic isn't scummy", I find the false logic approach to actually be pretty damn accurate so I stick with it.
3. why isn't it redirecting? there's a real possibility that's what he was trying to do. but you're not even considering the various possibilities and just assuming what I said is false?
4. v
5. I have the evidence to say yes
6. ^
7. not when his meta is apparently being more abrasive as scum. there is a real possibility IMO that he was trying not to be abrasive but then slipped

I swear your last point is a strawman. my thoughts are based on sorting people, and I'm not going to try to sort someone I've already sorted. thus, the fact I had a townread on BRO is significant. based on what he's done before, I find it improbable that he's scum doing an opportunistic jump. however, since I had no such townread on Varsoon, it's more likely he was scum doing an opportunistic jump, and the way he reacted when I pressured him reinforced this.

just looking at it without anything in mind his jump is different anyway because it provides a concrete reason and isn't 100% opinions. not only that but it doesn't ping me as fake like Varsoon's does

I can't get this feeling that you're scum with him out of my head. your last sentence is giving me all sorts of weird vibes and it makes me want to cry. I find this generally happens when scum says something that's off and I just can't find the exact words for why it's off. and the way that you jumped to defend him is setting off all my alarms. yeah this is gut and it doesn't help anyone but just throwing this out there

and I'm surprised still no one's noticed my reaction test yet

[pieguyn]

last sentence as is your first post, not your comment about 126

[zMuffinMan]

i don't have the energy to headdesk. i'm going to lie down for a bit.

before i do, though, i'm going to say that i flat-out disagree with morph's assessment of varsoon being more "abrasive" as scum. it depends what they mean by abrasive, but i think he's rather passive-polite in the way he talks to people as scum. *shrug*

[morph the cat]

i don't have the energy to headdesk. i'm going to lie down for a bit.

before i do, though, i'm going to say that i flat-out disagree with morph's assessment of varsoon being more "abrasive" as scum. it depends what they mean by abrasive, but i think he's rather passive-polite in the way he talks to people as scum. *shrug*

I didn't say he was more abrasive as scum. I indicated he was more abrasive as either alignment than what we were seeing in this game so far. In fact he was quite abrasive in Diner while he was in that game. IIRC I forced myself to take a 24 hour time-out during day 1 of that game to break out of a really negative, useless distractiing interaction with him.

I see it was a transient state.

[Psychlone]

@morph: do you think that's a town-tell?

If it is it's a super light one.


Don't worry bro, i'll chop your balls off this game too.

Make it a gelding. Wait, nobody has balls this game. Hysterectomy.

-snip-

What an odd set of circumstances. It just so happens that:

I claim miller-tracker

Are we all claiming now?

In that case, I'm a Cult Recruiting Lyncher.

So, you drew that scum card...
How do you plan on going about getting town lynched without being obvious about it?

Wording here's a bit of a loaded question, wayne. But to answer--a scum-me will aim to manipulate town players into being paranoid of one another for the long-term mislynches, while on the short-term, allowing compromise lynches. (A town-me almost never compromises on lynches because compromise lynches are a surefire way to lynch town players. )

how are you not reading me as town?

Because I want to have perfect 100% accuracy in reading you, meaning I want to wait on that callout to make sure.

VOTE: thezmon221.

VOTE: mastin2

You forgot the tell tale punctuation.

Don't you mean tell tail punctuation?

More seriously, pieguyn is an early town read for confusion over this:

That's what nacho said too!

VOTE: Mac

Hi

Aw c'mon.
Where's yer RVS spirit

I'm reserving judgment on BRO right now; he totally duped me in NY 165.

And what am I, chopped liver? I see how it is.

You replaced out

IMO it'd be a lot better if he just wanted to get on a wagon. but he tried to throw some reasons in there for getting on the wagon, making me think he was just trying to seem natural

Um

I totally DID remember the password to this hydra! Thanks for being online on Skype when I need you most, GiF!

HINT HINT GET ON SKYPE HINT HINT

Get a QT >:C

QT is only for when I can't use skype.
(Speaking of which I got skype working!)

^ opportunistic as fuck

vote: Varsoon

Or a proper evaluation of play and agreement with the currently building wagon in a way that simultaneously puts pressure on the slot but doesn't put it in danger of being a lynch?

while it's true that it doesn't place it in danger of a lynch right now, it still does at least 2 things

1. it might force a claim out of him

2. it allows you to just sit there and look like you're doing shit without actually looking anywhere to find scum. also a good point because you hardly posted anything besides what's related to getting on the wagon

what you said is also the easiest defense against this argument and I'm compelled to think you're scum because of it

I'm not following you here. So, despite not taking part in RVS, you think I'm eager to be on a wagon?
And that having legitimate reasons for being on a wagon is scummy?

Huh.

Do you want to talk to me about it? I mean, the reasons I have for joining the wagon are exactly the ones I stated, but if you're think that there's some deeper meaning behind it, we can chat.

anyone on the wagon is responsible for anything that might happen as a result of wagoning him

thus, it looks good to put "reasons" when you wagon someone so you can just say "but I srsly thought he was scum because xxx" if it goes wrong

Re: bolded
When I see stuff like that I always say this.
"Then why vote at all?"

unless it wasn't supposed to be serious

Was it that great?
I... I feel warm inside!
<3

Maybe so. GiF is very good at sorting Varsoon. I want to hear his thoughts.

I'll have to read that stupidly long 1v1 first.

10/10 to mastin and Nacho. Would read again.

Just because it's mastin and nacho?

4/10. Not nearly as good as mastin's

And 4/10 because we haven't posted.

Uhm... mastin was first poster, 10/10

Then pieguy 4/10?

Wtf?

Either buddying, or scumz
Or both, even.

10/10 to mastin and Nacho. Would read again.

BRO! What's wrong with you? That was GiF.

>.<

OR

He's just being so biased right now >.>

VOTE: BRO

Normally I would know what you're up to
But this post just leaves me clueless :<

varsoon AtE this early.

varsoon town gaise

Varsoon got me fooled for a while with his AtE in xenogears.

If I end up townreading him, it would be for different reasons.

town: GP, varsoon, psychlone, BRO, mastin
maybe TNE

i don't like how little morph has done anything that didn't feel completely empty in this game, especially considering the amount of posts from them.

i don't like the continued flippancy from thezmon.

i don't like pieguy being confused about stuff that isn't really confusing at all. and the attack on varsoon is pretty meh.

Does posting like she's in block of ice counts as completely empty?
What flippancy?
Meh.

Why did you claim PGO?


Sorry about all this inquiry, it just really threw me off.

I'll probably go full-crazy and dig every one of my games

to find what claim it reminded me of, only for it to be dejavu.

I could tell you where it's from, but for some reason, I don't feel like telling you.

Anyhow
nacho is townreading mastin hard for his #24.
Fery posts felt iffy at first. Cabd side looks fine to me. I'll "need more data"
I agree on nacho's townread on pieguy.

The PGO convo with Varsoon makes me feel confident putting zmuffin as a townpile.
Light townread on ghost_penguin and BRO.
Regarding zmon, I'll have to see more from him. While it looks like his mastin vote is not serious, it also kinda looks forced.

Re: Varsoon, I'll need to go through the posts ._.

[Psychlone]

What is "abrasive" ?

[Psychlone]

Also speaking of QT, I made one and I was wondering why he didn't post any in there.
Turns out that I forgot to send him a link!

[morph the cat]

What is "abrasive" ?

Like human sandpaper.

[Psychlone]

nacho is townreading mastin hard for his #24.

What I liked is that mastin felt awkward breaking up the jokey RVS stage, where all scum have to do is make jokes and hem and haw for a bit, but mastin broke that vibe for the sake of laying those reads down. I don't think he'd be as likely to do that as scum; he usually follows moods and "tempos" and adapts to them as scum, but he has no problem breaking them up as town.

I was actually thinking of this read while I was drinking hot chocolate this morning, just in case any of you was questioning how weird of a person I am.

[Varsoon]

I was actually thinking of this read while I was drinking hot chocolate this morning, just in case any of you was questioning how weird of a person I am.

I love you <3