Micro 252: There Is No Doctor - END

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I guess you are right. She can't. I am just really frustrated that she is unable to read me - or anyone for that matter.

[pitoli]

I understand Chaos thinking what I said about cops was scummy. I think that part of his case was okay, good even like Bulbazak said. Were I a different player in this game I would probably think along the same lines.

But I don't like that he hedged after quoting my entire back-and-forth with TIP. Chaos says "Hmmmm doesn't strike me as scummy" ???? right after he got done calling me a godfather? This doesn't strike me as cognitive dissonance, yet he says it. Why bother?

Also the part where he said this was kind of dumb:

Wow, your third vote on a wagon reasoning sounds super confident in that second post. The first post says the vote timing is "exceptionally scummy". When asked to explain it, you act like you were called on in class and aren't sure of the answer. Also, you said you watch those votes to see if people are trying to cement mislynches, and then say that he didn't give the vote much thought. Those ideas seem contradictory to me. If he was trying to cement momentum on a mislynch, wouldn't he have given thought to the vote?

Scum don't care what they have to do to cement momentum on a mislynch. Their vote placements can be accompanied by well thought-out beautiful cases, or more reckless impulses. It really doesn't matter. As long as the lynch is pushed through - and we've all seen mislynches go through for the crappiest of reasons. Moreover the fact that no one questioned Sangres' vote

except for me

- yes there was some nice momentum going, and if Sangres is scum then mission (almost) accomplished. My point at the time was that I didn't like how thoughtless the vote seemed because as far as I've played with Nacho and Ffery, they do not casually throw their vote around.

Him trying to paint me as having contradicting thoughts on this matter is realllllly weak.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Oddly, I can buy that Bulbazak is actually this stubborn and bad at this game as town. I think lynching Chaos and Sangres should win us the game. If not, then lynching Bulbazak should do it.

I've been thinking about Nacho's entrance into the game and while I liked a lot of his posts, Nacho can be

incredibly

manipulative if he wants to be. I particularly remember reading through a game of his (Buzzword Bingo) where he details in the scum QT exactly who he will manipulate and how. In this game, I would be the prime target for him to manipulate being I unfortunately managed to antagonize the entire town by pushing too hard on my reads. I overcompensated for something I felt I should have done in my last game where I was extremely careful not to defend townreads too hard and alienate people while doing so.

Whatever Nacho did, I still can't get over the fact that ffery made a bunch of posts that I didn't understand, refused to discuss reads with me, or explain those posts at all, and has been completely dismissive and gave me the cold shoulder about everything I posted and then Nacho came to smooth things over. It is almost like she was trying to bury her head in the sand and waiting for town to self-destruct which she never, ever does as town (for examples, refer to the above game or read the list of games in her wiki). I am honestly going to be quite disappointed if Sangres actually is town.

[Bulbazak]

Oddly, I can buy that Bulbazak is actually this stubborn and bad at this game as town. I think lynching Chaos and Sangres should win us the game. If not, then lynching Bulbazak should do it.

I've been thinking about Nacho's entrance into the game and while I liked a lot of his posts, Nacho can be

incredibly

manipulative if he wants to be. I particularly remember reading through a game of his (Buzzword Bingo) where he details in the scum QT exactly who he will manipulate and how. In this game, I would be the prime target for him to manipulate being I unfortunately managed to antagonize the entire town by pushing too hard on my reads. I overcompensated for something I felt I should have done in my last game where I was extremely careful not to defend townreads too hard and alienate people while doing so.

Whatever Nacho did, I still can't get over the fact that ffery made a bunch of posts that I didn't understand, refused to discuss reads with me, or explain those posts at all, and has been completely dismissive and gave me the cold shoulder about everything I posted and then Nacho came to smooth things over. It is almost like she was trying to bury her head in the sand and waiting for town to self-destruct which she never, ever does as town (for examples, refer to the above game or read the list of games in her wiki). I am honestly going to be quite disappointed if Sangres actually is town.

"Oh crap, my WK is not working. REVERSE! REVERSE! Recalibrating. New target found. Onward!"

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

391, 395, and 417 gives me good town vibes though. I'm not sure. I need to rethink this game from scratch.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

"Oh crap, my WK is not working. REVERSE! REVERSE! Recalibrating. New target found. Onward!"

^ This post really makes no sense. It is stuff like this that makes me go back and forth on you constantly. Do you

actually

believe that town are less likely to reverse and recalibrate than scum?

[Bulbazak]

Do you

actually

believe that town are less likely to reverse and recalibrate than scum?

Except I don't believe that's what this is. You encountered resistance on me from a source you weren't expecting, so you've changed directions and started going after someone else, in this case, Sangres.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't think that you as town would legitimately believe that me going for Sangres has real scum motivation (besides the obvious WIFOM aspect of scum wouldn't do it, so scum would do it to look town).

Sangres is a much more difficult player to push a lynch on than you are, considering they are individually the best players in the game even without a hydra. They are not going to get mislynched D1. Nacho also called me town whereas you have called me scum. Sangres are also persuasive enough to push a lynch on anybody they suspect. If I were scum and encountered resistance from Pitoli, I'd just wait for Nacho to come back and push you some more. Or I'd just push Chaos. Why even both accusing them?

I have my suspicions and I am being honest about them. The way you are twisting it to have scum motivation is astounding.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

*Why even bother accusing them?

[pitoli]

F-16 I want you to be town really badly

[BBmolla]

Votecount 1.07

Bulbazak - 1 - sangres
pitoli - 1 - ChaosOmega
TheIrishPope - 1 - pitoli
F-16_Fighting_Falcon - 1 - Bulbazak
The Purple Rose - 1 - TheIrishPope
EspeciallyTheLies - 1 - The Purple Rose

Not Voting: Lastsurvivor, EspeciallyTheLies, F-16_Fighting_Falcon

Deadline: (expired on 2013-11-12 09:33:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[sangres]

You're joking, right?

You don't need to be townread as scum; first and foremost, you need to not be lynched which was a purpose that was being perfectly served by you reading F-16 as null-town based on your read on pitoli-scum. I could see the purpose of trying to convince you that he's town if you were scumreading, but it seems odd for F-16 to stick out his neck in order to be townread over scumread.

I wasn't aware you had one.

At first, I didn't really like pitoli because the only thing she was doing was defusing other people's reads and waffling hard (#32, #51), and I was hoping to draw out some sort of reaction with my "counterwagon!" vote. Her reaction was voting me for the timing of my vote, not the obviously flawed logic or the weirdness of it, which felt off to me. I could understand if she thought it was something that was strange coming from me or obviously scummy, but timing was an odd way to justify it. "It just didn't feel like you gave it that much thought" was the first part where I got an inkling of a townread on her, but the fact that the timing was the main thing that bothered her still bothered me. #159 was also weird because it didn't seem like she was particularly convinced that I was town (why would she be worried about me being convinced that she's scum when I'm the scummiest person on the wagon?), but her posting after that point is more along the lines of what I expect from pitoli town. Her push on TiP seemed pretty fucking genuine (#331 especially), and I think ffery's reasons for townreading her are also pretty fucking good.

What Chaos pointed out about her wanting to be scanned by the cop is a pretty strong indicator, imo.

Immediately jumping to the conclusion of scum godfather seemed like a strange conclusion to draw. If my scum on someone requires them to be a scum godfather in order to be scum, I throw that shit out.

My point at the time was that I didn't like how thoughtless the vote seemed because as far as I've played with Nacho and Ffery, they do not casually throw their vote around.

See, this is what I was hoping you would pick up on initially; this was the reaction I was expecting from you as town. But the reaction I got instead was some weird "oh their timing was off" which was totally not the problem at all, and that pinged for me.

It is almost like she was trying to bury her head in the sand and waiting for town to self-destruct which she never, ever does as town (for examples, refer to the above game or read the list of games in her wiki). I am honestly going to be quite disappointed if Sangres actually is town.

I'm sure ffery will have her own words about that when she wakes up in her odd sleep schedule way, but I think you're interpreting ffery's play thus far wrong, and I don't think you know how hydra dynamics alter ffery's scumplay (check completed Morph the Cat games for examples of that). "Make a bunch of shitty posts and then have the competent scum player dig her out" isn't exactly how ffery plays scum with strong scum partners.

"Oh crap, my WK is not working. REVERSE! REVERSE! Recalibrating. New target found. Onward!"

Why do you think F-16 scum chose the two hardest targets in the game to go after?

[Lastsurvivor]

Wall incoming...

Can someone tell me if F16 buddys this hardcore as town in his other games. I don't feel like checking, but I don't think he hasn't had a single read that hasn't hinged on his buddying somehow. And his case in #354 is garbage.

(inb4 F16 doesn't see that I'm exaggerating and points out the occasions where he hasn't buddied).

PEDIT: Oh ETL did just that in #365. Awesome I'll have to read those when I have time. Although FWIW I trust ETL in sayiing that F16 is town even though I really shouldn't.

Regardless, F16's case on Bulb is not convincing and I feel like their argument is distracting the town (aka me) if anything.

ChaosOmega is giving me townie feelings.

Just a feeling, or do you maybe have something better?

I've learned to associate aggressiveness with town, and TPR seems to be playing more off of emotions than actual gameplay at this point. Her vote on ETL pinged town to me, if only because she's been townread by plenty of people so it'd be a dumb move by scum.

Bulbazak/CO seems particularly likely at the moment.

Why CO?

PEDIT: You said he was better in 410, but I want to know why you thought it initially regardless.

I'll have to ISO Bulb, because I still have my gut town read on him. I'm not seeing why he's scum really.

One scum in {F-16, Bulbazak, Sangres}. Yes? Yes.

Plausible I suppose.

Yes. I think Chaos is scum along with one of Bulbazak or Sangres but I am not sure who.

I'll ask you too - why CO?

My eyes are glazing over at this F16-Bulb-Sangres interaction. too many quotes, buzzwords.

I am not sure if you are one of those "town shouldn't worry about looking like town" people. But there is town motivation in asking to be cleared if the player in question feels that they would avoid a mislynch that way. Avoiding mislynches furthers the town wincon. If the player also feels that they can lead the town to victory by eliminating them as a potential mislynch, that also serves the town wincon.

While this is technically true, most townies would realize that the risk vs reward isn't worth it (i.e., missing out on a potential hit on scum).

This is going to fall on deaf ears, but TiP is doing jack shit this game.

Read her reaction to Sangres voting her.

Sorry if you responded to this/explained this before (or if you went over this during your far-too-long wall war with Bulb), but what exactly is it about PItoli's reaction that's town? You just said to me that it was townie, but never said why, and I still don't know why.

what townie actually minds being cleared? Like that would be kind of nice (and don't fucking lie - you all would feel the same).

Meh.

^ This post really makes no sense. It is stuff like this that makes me go back and forth on you constantly. Do you actually believe that town are less likely to reverse and recalibrate than scum?

Town change their mind a lot, but it's never an abrupt thing. Rather, it's more of a natural process.

Scum can abruptly change their strategy on the fly because they're just making up all their beliefs as they go.

[sangres]

shitty posts

:/

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

LastSurvivor, I don't know how to put this more mildly so I won't. You are a fucking idiot who is going to be a complete detriment to the town. You never consider all the possibilities for who is scum and who isn't. You flat-out refused to read the wall between me and Bulbazak. Why even play the game if you don't like to read it? What exactly are you expecting? That you pop in once every couple of days and someone explains to you stuff that they have been posting in the game.

You have already decided that I am scum. Stop pretending to scumhunt. My 354 brings out several concerns I had about Bulbazak and attempts to initiate a discussion with him. I am not even sure whether he is scum at this point.

ChaosOmega in no way should give you good townie feelings. If you actually have a townread on him, you should be ashamed, your children should be ashamed and your grandchildren should be ashamed at how bad you are at the bad.

I've learned to associate aggressiveness with town, and TPR seems to be playing more off of emotions than actual gameplay at this point. Her vote on ETL pinged town to me, if only because she's been townread by plenty of people so it'd be a dumb move by scum.

So, stupid=town. And because I am a good enough scumhunter to recognize that ETL was town instead of stupidly OMGUSing her, I am scum.

Your 462 is complete crap and lazy pretend-scumhunting. Look at how every one of your questions come from a mindset of you having already decided who the scum are. You've decided that I am either a bad player or scum, so my points against Bulb are "garbage."

You've already decided that ChaosOmega and me arguing makes him town so he has "good points." You don't like Pitoli for town so Chaos makes "good points?"

All of your questions are repititive and I am not going to repeat stuff for you because you are so lazy. Read my fucking ISO.

[The Purple Rose]

I have an apology to make, I believe. I didn't have a good week, but that's not really an excuse to take it out on unsuspecting people like you. This is a game after all, and it should be fun. I'm sorry for making it less so, and I shouldn't have done that. I hope you can accept this apology.

As for my reads, I don't know. What happened before clouds my mind and that makes it hard to stay objective. I know why I liked my case on ETL and I'd like to stick with that. I feel reinforced in the idea that she's scum because she simply reads a different game then we do by bulba's and f-16's posts about the pressure towards f-16 earlier on. When I mentioned it first, ETL first response was to call it bullshit, but I'm apparently not the only one reading that. Even when bulb explained it in a fairly lengthy post, etl agreed, then showed straight away she didn't get it. I don't think this is inability, it's looking at the game from a different perspective, a scum one.

As in the previous post, I feel it's the same with our argument here. I name post numbers and say that I like to lynch TIP, ETL posts that TIP isn't doing that much but in the meantime attacks me for suspecting TIP, and my admittedly stubbornness of not quoting TIP posts because I thought it was too much of an effort.

This was what I said in previous posts in a bit stronger language (again, sorry!), but I have trouble understanding why I'd have to quote a series of TIP's posts to show that he's not doing a lot and he's laughing votes on him away. I have the feeling that everybody would have read that.


I think if I had been someone else here and saw someone make such a mess of it as I did, I would be late to the party to call that person town. From scum points of view, it makes sense to see how far a townie can mess up and see if she's a possible mislynch and keep quiet about it for a little. As such, my earlier townread of F-16 has gotten stronger. He could have abused that situation had he been scum, there was no need to unvote. He's my nr. 2 town read after lastsurvivor at the moment.

Alright, my gut instinct says that the scum are The Purple Rose and pitoli, with pitoli being a godfather. The godfather thing is from this quote:

At this point I welcome any daycop (or night cop) to have their way with me

It's not pro-town to want to be investigated by cops. If you know you're town, it's a wasted investigation that won't hit scum. A godfather would love to be "cleared" in such a manner, though.

I like this. I like this a lot. It's a classic GF tell, and I completely forgot about it. Even if pitoli isn't scum, I think the fact that chaos is thinking this way makes him town. I am saddened that he thinks I'm scum, but I didn't help much there, I guess.

I don't think I like sangres's play lately a lot. It's a lot of effort, long posts, but it seems to counter productive. I like the GF tell, he dislikes it because it wouldn't apply to goons. I like bulba, they start an extensive investigation.

And despite what I said, I think I should vote with my mind here:

vote pitoli

[Bulbazak]

I don't think that you as town would legitimately believe that me going for Sangres has real scum motivation (besides the obvious WIFOM aspect of scum wouldn't do it, so scum would do it to look town).

Sangres is a much more difficult player to push a lynch on than you are, considering they are individually the best players in the game even without a hydra. They are not going to get mislynched D1. Nacho also called me town whereas you have called me scum. Sangres are also persuasive enough to push a lynch on anybody they suspect. If I were scum and encountered resistance from Pitoli, I'd just wait for Nacho to come back and push you some more. Or I'd just push Chaos. Why even both accusing them?

I have my suspicions and I am being honest about them. The way you are twisting it to have scum motivation is astounding.

Can you make up your mind whether you want to push Sangres as scum or buddy up them?

You don't need to be townread as scum; first and foremost, you need to not be lynched which was a purpose that was being perfectly served by you reading F-16 as null-town based on your read on pitoli-scum. I could see the purpose of trying to convince you that he's town if you were scumreading, but it seems odd for F-16 to stick out his neck in order to be townread over scumread.

Except what he had a problem with was that my early read on him was predicated on Pitoli. He even said he didn't want to be read based on any associations, i.e. he would be scum if she flipped town. I can see scum motivation in trying to get townread by me in that instance.

Immediately jumping to the conclusion of scum godfather seemed like a strange conclusion to draw. If my scum on someone requires them to be a scum godfather in order to be scum, I throw that shit out.

It wasn't the primary point in the case, but it was a major piece of supporting evidence. Again, there's very little town motivation in asking the cop to scan you.

Why do you think F-16 scum chose the two hardest targets in the game to go after?

Sometimes going after a strong player can gain you towncred, because nobody thinks that scum would be dumb enough to do so. However, it might also be because you and Ffery are not running at full steam yet. Early game would be the best time to push you as scum.

Also, I'm assuming the two hardest targets was in reference to both of your heads and not to me as well. If it was about me, why do you think I'm a hard target to go after?

[TheIrishPope]

I... Have no idea what to say.
I need to think.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Nacho may be ready to talk reads. I'm not yet.

Would you guys kindly back off for a little while and let this conversation happen?

shitty posts

:/

I really, really don't understand why you are doing this. I am not even sure if it is alignment-relevant.

[TheIrishPope]

Like, the airplanes anger looks like it comes from town.
And then purple rose AtEs the thread, apologises and gets out of the tunnel.
Bah.
Sangres help.

[Lastsurvivor]

Uh...what the heck was that F16.

> If I thought you were scum, I'd be voting you right now.
> I'm not sure if you're scum or just heavily survivalistic. That post was leaning towards the latter, since you just attacked a fucking confirmed town.
> Just because I fucking disagree with you doesn't make me an idiot.
> I actually have been reading your back and forth between Bulb and you. I was trying to say that you v bulb is distracting the town since you guys are just posting long walls that not everyone is going to read in depth.
> Sorry but it's been an unexpectedly crazy week and I'm not really into this game yet. That wall was me starting to get into it.

So, stupid=town. And because I am a good enough scumhunter to recognize that ETL was town instead of stupidly OMGUSing her, I am scum.

Dude that quote you responded to wasn't even about you at all. Please calm yourself. I'm not out to get you.

But fine I'll look through your ISO to find bits about CO. And I'll read CO's ISO to decide why I think he's town since that was just a gut thing.

[Lastsurvivor]

^ Also making things personal isn't cool F16. Just saying. I don't like it when people curse my nonexistent children.

[Lastsurvivor]

Also I'd love it if I could play this game without being accused of lurking after not posting for one day. <_<

Ok I see your case in 343 F16. That explains it I read it yesterday but forgot about it today...

-------

I think I thought of CO-town from #337. Even though I disagree with the GF comment, I really like his point about the OMGUS inconsistency. It had very weak rationale (which, yes, is scummy).

Also, he posts the conversation with TIP and Pitoli and notes and concludes that it makes Pit look town. So it looks like CO was, as you say, "trying to figure things out," in regards to Pit and TiP etc. instead of just pushing a case on Pit.

The only knock I have on CO is that he seems to only be focusing on certain players, and blatantly ignoring others (like you, F16). When I first read it I thought it was town confidence, but now I think there could be scum motivation to avoid a confrontation.

So I still have a town lean on him. Sorry. I'll go be ashamed in the corner or something.

Unless of course you want to, you know, actually want to have a dialogue with me about CO or anything really. Instead of yelling at me and saying I'm bad at this game F16.

[ChaosOmega]

You've decided that I am either a bad player or scum

I've decided that as well, by the way. Leaning towards bad player because you're pretty fucking persistent and blockheaded.

ChaosOmega in no way should give you good townie feelings.

I gave your mom good townie feelings.

Can you make up your mind whether you want to push Sangres as scum or buddy up them?

Agreed.

Chaos says "Hmmmm doesn't strike me as scummy" ???? right after he got done calling me a godfather? This doesn't strike me as cognitive dissonance, yet he says it. Why bother?

My gut said you were scum, so i wanted to go through your votes to see if anything strange was there. I collected the whole conversation between you and TIP to analyze it, and nothing stuck to me as scummy from you in that exchange. Posting it was a combination of transparency in what I was looking at and questioning TIP about his reasoning for voting F16.

The only knock I have on CO is that he seems to only be focusing on certain players, and blatantly ignoring others

Fair enough. This is mainly because I'm pretty much null on a fair bit of players (you're a townread [obviously] F16 is to a lesser extent [unfortunately]; pitoli and TPR are my scum reads). I'll reevaluate and try to hammer down something more concrete on them after some deaths for a little more context (or if I need to abandon my reads for a deadline lynch D1).

[Bulbazak]

You've decided that I am either a bad player or scum

I've decided that as well, by the way. Leaning towards bad player because you're pretty fucking persistent and blockheaded.

What limited experience I have with F-16 tells me that he's not a bad player.