Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night (Game Over)

[morph the cat]

This post was made at 9:20 AM UK time. I noticed he was online a while before the post was made. Sounds like it's not out of the question he took that much time to catch up and compose a wall.

I'm feeling a little better. I'm hydraing with Nacho in some other games and I know it's hellish trying to synch since his laptop was stolen.

understandable from nacho, but lack of content from gif is scaring me. and a lack of presence and cursing from ghostlin too.

It was, but do scum stick their neck out like that to throw suspicion and discredit on a potential town PR? If pieguyn hadn't already wigged out about our vote and indicated he's be proving himself before day end maybe it would have looked less genuine. maybe.

i had some strong feelings that it was a bit like pressuring pie into actually following through with his word, but i may need to re-read and double check.

And yet again, if you thought that mastin was scum

Why were you voting thez?

you're better than this.

oh varsoon you're case is really just "you're push on me is scummy so you are scum." 1) whether it's "bad" is down to opinion. I don't think it was bad and up until recent posts I thought I had nailed scum. let's see...

Your initial logic for voting me was to cite posts/votes made by the Metal Sonic head of my previous Hydra? That's a poor appeal to make. I was voting you for that, but even if I said so, most players would chalk up my vote as an OMGUS, so I saved the idiots the trouble of foaming at the mouth.

my bad about the metal sonic thing, I'm going to assume you are being honest and had no say in it. still, I also compared it too your "wriggle wriggle" cheeky-scum routine in lylo of gears which you've conveniently missed.

You also said that I dropped off Pie's wagon when I realized he was town. No shit. How is that a scum move? If I was scum, wouldn't I -know- Pie were town all along?

what I actually said:

when his one scumread, pieguy, turns out to be fucking town, he runs away saying he needs to re-evaluate the game

ie you didn't vote for another scumread, you just shyed away from the light., big difference and a big misrep.

There's no agenda this game, because I'm town, and I don't need to look town, or play town, or do anything town at all.

ahahahaha sorry but this attitude is fucking terrible. why bother playing mafia if you are not gonna play to a fucking wincon?

All I need to do is find scum, and I can take my time doing so.

town works as a team varsoon. you know this as much as fucking anyone in this game.

Also, speaking of scum -looking- like they're doing something, this is exactly what I see you doing here, which makes for a funny case of projecting that you're up to.

i have no iddea what you are saying here. i'm scummy for making a case and people sheeping it?

2 shot 2 player doc as your claim. i take it 2 player means two different players?

UNVOTE:

You're usually decent on Mac. Why is he scum? You mean you aren't going to Doc me tonight?

with all due respect to varsoon, he's evidently not great at reading me. i'm not sure why you think he's decent on me or why you're putting your eggs in his basket.

What makes you think so?

Also, I'm good with a mac lynch.

Vote: Mac

Lurking and skipping the recent hubbub so he can come in tomorrow and act all surprised with some fake pour it on about how I should feel bad and blahblahblah.

hahaha. at least you know you should feel bad.

He was around

actually, I was asleep. nice try though.

If Mac ever flips and he's scum, he has a habit of not interacting with other scum. The only two players he hasn't interacted with are thezmon and BRO.

if you are going to meta, do it right. i have no idea where you got this little gem from, but it's wrong. just an fyi!

Several of is have voiced our suspicions of thez. Several others theirs on BRO. We all have our shortcomings, but Varsoon is pretty good with Mac. So, that's the scum team as far as I'm concerned and I'll live and die by it. I won't be obnoxious pushing it, but I probably won't follow any other wagon for now.

you are honestly ridiculous. i don't know what fucking planet you live on where varsoon had suddenly become supermacreader (BIG HINT: HE'S NOT (no offence!)) so tell me, where did you get that from and are you sure you're not trying to pin a mislynch on varsoon?

why is everyone so convinced varsoon can read me? bizarre.

[morph the cat]

8am is the wee hours?

I don't know when you saw him online. I know when you started talking about seeing him. And that wasn't anywhere near 8 am UK time.

[morph the cat]

What makes you think so?

Also, I'm good with a mac lynch.

Vote: Mac

Lurking and skipping the recent hubbub so he can come in tomorrow and act all surprised with some fake pour it on about how I should feel bad and blahblahblah.

He was around

actually, I was asleep. nice try though.

Nope.

This post was made at 2:45 PM UK time.


This post was made at 8:03 am UK time

He's just frustrated I won't give an answer about how I know Mac was lurking last night, but he was and now he's lying about it so yea.

This post was made at 9:55 pm UK time

If there's another reference to Mac lurking I'm missing it.

[morph the cat]

first quotes and comments are a little screwed up, but I think it can be parsed.

[zMuffinMan]

Can you give me your big BRO case?

i've gone over this a few times already, but the gist of it is that his catchup spam earlier in the game lacked any real scum hunting, i didn't like the way he sheeped me onto the thez and mafiaSSK wagons, and his recent responses to mastin feel fake.

why don't you talk about why you think it's his town game?

I think "lack of content" is a really shallow reason for pushing on him. there's content in there but you have to look to see it and I think it's obvious from his posting what his reads were.

it's not about "lack of content" so much as... empty posts? like the scum hunting he's doing is just surface-scratching stuff and there's no

real

effort to look for scum in any of his posts. yeah, i can tell what his reads are, but i don't think the way he arrived at those reads, or the way he's approaching the game in general, looks genuine.

what do you think about all his posts like 1201?

1201 was a town post. here's the thing. if you strip away the arrogance in mastin calling himself obvtown, you're left with mastin (from the pov of mastin-town) trying to figure out why psychlone isn't reading him as town in this game, when nacho has enough experience with mastin that he should be able to differentiate between mastin's town play and mastin's scum play. you can call that mastin talking out of his ass and claiming he's obvtown or whatever, but at that point mastin didn't really have a wagon on him or anything, and i don't think him calling himself town was so much of a defense as a trying-to-figure-out-what's-going-on-with-psychlone thing. which is why it's a town post.

also i was half-joking when i said i don't think mastin would lie about being town (we've already established i'm not very funny). but i really do think the over-the-top way he called himself obvtown here is something he's more likely to do as town than scum - it's hard to fake that kind of confidence, especially when people are calling you scummy and voting you for it. i'm really not sure why so many took issue with it. iirc he did something similar in xenogears (except instead of calling himself obvtown, he called himself conftown) and i don't remember anyone in this playerlist thinking he was scummy for it then.

[zMuffinMan]

hey morph

did you ever look into TNE's meta? iirc it was something you said you were doing at some point in this game

[morph the cat]

Mastin scum ISO in Buzzword Bingo

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

- no instance of obvtown or obvious town

- One "conftown", in reference to a town player in post 860

- Two "confirmed town" in reference to his scumbuddy in post 1248, 1262

- One "I'm town and you are too" about himself and his scum partner in post 1252

- One "you have to trust me that I'm town" in post 1700

- One "I'm town" in post 1702

[morph the cat]

hey morph

did you ever look into TNE's meta? iirc it was something you said you were doing at some point in this game

Not yet because I'm a lazy bastard.

[morph the cat]

Mastin scum ISO in Walking Dead

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

All the "obvtown", "obvious town" comments are in reference to other players (ctl-f scan says they were all town players)

All the "conftown", "confirmed town" comments are in reference to town players.

One "confscum" was in reference to the traitor who was recruited (I don't remember if he'd already been recruited at the time of the post and I don't care enough to figure it out right now.

One "confscum" was about a town player that looked somewhat lynchable because lolprincetonscumteam.

[morph the cat]

Can you give me your big BRO case?

i've gone over this a few times already, but the gist of it is that his catchup spam earlier in the game lacked any real scum hunting, i didn't like the way he sheeped me onto the thez and mafiaSSK wagons, and his recent responses to mastin feel fake.

why don't you talk about why you think it's his town game?

I think "lack of content" is a really shallow reason for pushing on him. there's content in there but you have to look to see it and I think it's obvious from his posting what his reads were.

it's not about "lack of content" so much as... empty posts? like the scum hunting he's doing is just surface-scratching stuff and there's no

real

effort to look for scum in any of his posts. yeah, i can tell what his reads are, but i don't think the way he arrived at those reads, or the way he's approaching the game in general, looks genuine.

what do you think about all his posts like 1201?

1201 was a town post. here's the thing. if you strip away the arrogance in mastin calling himself obvtown, you're left with mastin (from the pov of mastin-town) trying to figure out why psychlone isn't reading him as town in this game, when nacho has enough experience with mastin that he should be able to differentiate between mastin's town play and mastin's scum play. you can call that mastin talking out of his ass and claiming he's obvtown or whatever, but at that point mastin didn't really have a wagon on him or anything, and i don't think him calling himself town was so much of a defense as a trying-to-figure-out-what's-going-on-with-psychlone thing. which is why it's a town post.

also i was half-joking when i said i don't think mastin would lie about being town (we've already established i'm not very funny). but i really do think the over-the-top way he called himself obvtown here is something he's more likely to do as town than scum - it's hard to fake that kind of confidence, especially when people are calling you scummy and voting you for it. i'm really not sure why so many took issue with it. iirc he did something similar in xenogears (except instead of calling himself obvtown, he called himself conftown) and i don't remember anyone in this playerlist thinking he was scummy for it then.

The two games I've played with scum-Mastin (see above) suggest this observation is on the mark.

[pieguyn]

it's not about "lack of content" so much as... empty posts? like the scum hunting he's doing is just surface-scratching stuff and there's no real effort to look for scum in any of his posts. yeah, i can tell what his reads are, but i don't think the way he arrived at those reads, or the way he's approaching the game in general, looks genuine.

he strikes me as the kind of player who just naturally posts like that, and mostly goes into observation mode. if we're talking about "effort", I'd be more suspicious of GIFNacho. them not posting much isn't a problem, but none of their posts were really questioning or pushing people.

if you can provide meta that suggests that BRO never does this as town, then I'd find this argument way easier to perceive o.o

[Ghostly Penguin]

Hey mastin2, you said you expected to scum read me, implying that you would scum read me irrespective of my alignment. Yet in looking back through mutual games of ours, counting at least those where you were solo and where you were hydra'd (not sure about my hydras) we had scum-town, town-scum, and town-town examples. I couldn't find a town-town game where you mentioned in-thread having a scum read on me. I found ones where you'd eliminated me from the 'people you want to lynch' group and/or town read me, but I don't think town-you has ever scum read town-me.

You have clearly called me out as scum correctly as in WWE, and you've deliberately helped mislynched me when you were scum. I'm not saying you read me so perfectly that you couldn't be wrong, but I'm not finding evidence for your start-of-game stance here.

What am I missing?

--PA

[waynegg]

I'm in the central time zone, which is GMT - 6 hours. I posted at 2am. 2+6=8. Not that it matters. Just keep it in mind when I'm gone.

[Mac]

it was 7, which is because we moved into wintertime hours last week (clocks went back) which i think explains the difference. for reference, it's 8:26 right now.

i dont know what you saw wayne, but you need to move past it because it's absolutely bullshit. i have no reason to lie - if i was here, i wouldve defended myself against the shitstorm you were brewing. instead, you just had to wait a couple of hours.

[waynegg]

Lol!

[waynegg]

We went to winter hours (dst) a couple of weeks ago too <3

[zMuffinMan]

if you can provide meta that suggests that BRO never does this as town

even if i had the time to actually do the meta research, i probably wouldn't.

it's really not about "effort". i don't know how to explain it any better than i've already tried to. :/

[pieguyn]

just over 24 hours left... people need to jump on one of the two wagons, or suggest something better 0.0

[morph the cat]

TNE ISO Highlights

I liked his entrance into the thread, and the first post that really gave me a town sense was actually pretty early: 291. I liked that he wasn't avoiding GiF. He didn't back down about Varsoon's early AtE. The question mark, really was his assertion of familiarity with Varsoon's xenogears play. I have'nt really seen TNE as a meta-heavy player, and this was a game he didn't play.

350 is a pretty strong stance on BRO.

356 and next post in ISO are pretty cheeky responses to being scumread by thezmon.

630 reads list is pretty iconoclastic in some ways.

885, 886 cases on his scumreads. This is way more detailed and thoughtful than what I'm used to seeing from TNE. If he's town I hope he'll play like this more often.

Subsequent back and forth with BRO feels very much like someone who thinks they are talking to scum.

I'm townreading the fuck out of this ISO.

[pieguyn]

356 and next post in ISO are pretty cheeky responses to being scumread by thezmon.

do you think this is something he can't fake as scum?

630 reads list is pretty iconoclastic in some ways.

for me this reads list just seemed to list off all the popular opinions at the time. he had Mac/SSK the two lurkers as null, you/me/giffycho/varsoon town, wayne scum vs. zmuffin town, and bro/thez scum. I'm not too sure what's iconoclastic about that, can you elaborate plz?

885, 886 cases on his scumreads. This is way more detailed and thoughtful than what I'm used to seeing from TNE. If he's town I hope he'll play like this more often.

that'd be fine but a lot of the stuff in there was invalid. for example the wayne vote on Varsoon that he had already explained. and IMO posting a detailed case doesn't seem at all like something town-TNE would do. that combined with the previous statement makes me unsure on this

Subsequent back and forth with BRO feels very much like someone who thinks they are talking to scum.

for me it just seemed like he was tunneling BRO the whole game, which again I can't remember him doing as town

[mastin2]

by your own logic, admitting to it doesn't make it scummy?

No. Admitting to it is entirely and utterly null, neither making it more nor less scummy.

Admitting to it, and then hypocritically pushing someone as being scum for admitting to it? Yeah, that's scummy, because they're being hypocritical.

Wayne's town. Pie's town. Varsoon's town. Morph's pretty damn town. I'm basically flat-out calling these my tier-1 townreads now. Which leaves BRO, GP, Mac, Psychlone, TNE, thez, and zMuf. And of them?

zMuff is in tier-2. There's tingling bits of paranoia here and there about him, but they're just that, paranoia. thez looks town to me as well, albeit admittedly much weaker (actually, weaker than TNE). Same for TNE, in that I have that weak-ish townread on him.

Leaving BRO (scumread), GP (scummish read), Mac, and Psychlone. Mac, I'm actually starting to doubt my townread on, though I don't have any concrete reasons as to why. (Just gut, I guess.) Psychlone is a deep, DEEP concern for me, as I've already mentioned.

Also, I find it quite concerning how neither Ghostlin nor Nacho are around, so close to deadline, despite them being MY centers of attention. (For that matter, BRO's presence seems lessened as of late.)

mastin said he's town, and i don't think he would lie about something like that

Well, I do lie about it as scum, butyeah. Am town.

BRO's current wagon is zMuffinMan, mastin2, thenewearth, Morph the Cat. At least one of these people is scum in the event that BRO is town.
TNE's wagon is Ghostly Penguin, Mac, pieguyn, BROseidon. It feels a lot more town-filled, but I'm suspicious of Ghostly and BRO.

BRO feels like a mislynch.
TNE doesn't.

Vote : TNE

How is TNE's wagon town-filled when you're suspicious of half the players on it, compared to the BRO wagon where you're not?

I'm actually feeling the opposite. TNE feels like a mislynch; BRO doesn't.

Hey mastin2, you said you expected to scum read me, implying that you would scum read me irrespective of my alignment. Yet in looking back through mutual games of ours, counting at least those where you were solo and where you were hydra'd (not sure about my hydras) we had scum-town, town-scum, and town-town examples. I couldn't find a town-town game where you mentioned in-thread having a scum read on me. I found ones where you'd eliminated me from the 'people you want to lynch' group and/or town read me, but I don't think town-you has ever scum read town-me.

You have clearly called me out as scum correctly as in WWE, and you've deliberately helped mislynched me when you were scum. I'm not saying you read me so perfectly that you couldn't be wrong, but I'm not finding evidence for your start-of-game stance here.

What am I missing?

--PA

That I see posts like this as scumclaims?

[morph the cat]

TNE's ISO in hunterxhunterx (scum)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This is one of those ISOs that you can almost evaluate by textual body language. The ratio of one liners to content-rich posts stands out via a quick scan.

333 is his initial reads list. Compared to the one in this game, it's kinda vague and not as strongly stanced.

One item of note - he was pretty late to bus Gamma, who was almost certainly going down with both Vi and Nacho pushing his lynch.

I didn't remember him strongly tunneling anyone, and a quick review of the ISO confirms that.

[fferyllt]

356 and next post in ISO are pretty cheeky responses to being scumread by thezmon.

do you think this is something he can't fake as scum?

630 reads list is pretty iconoclastic in some ways.

for me this reads list just seemed to list off all the popular opinions at the time. he had Mac/SSK the two lurkers as null, you/me/giffycho/varsoon town, wayne scum vs. zmuffin town, and bro/thez scum. I'm not too sure what's iconoclastic about that, can you elaborate plz?

I could be misremembering where the townreads and scumreads were trending at that point, but his list did not look like some sort of "average" take. I don't have time to research this in detail right now, but will try to get back to it before the day ends. I don't see myself voting TNE today unless someone I'd trust enough to follow them off a cliff presents an absolutely killer case.

885, 886 cases on his scumreads. This is way more detailed and thoughtful than what I'm used to seeing from TNE. If he's town I hope he'll play like this more often.

that'd be fine but a lot of the stuff in there was invalid. for example the wayne vote on Varsoon that he had already explained. and IMO posting a detailed case doesn't seem at all like something town-TNE would do. that combined with the previous statement makes me unsure on this

TNE's play is extremely variable. This does not look like his scum play at all to me. And IME when someone really shakes up their game, they're more likely to be town than scum because the risks to one's team are less, and because it's a lot easier to be genuine and different than it is to be fake and different - cognitively the latter is a much greater load.

Subsequent back and forth with BRO feels very much like someone who thinks they are talking to scum.

for me it just seemed like he was tunneling BRO the whole game, which again I can't remember him doing as town

I can't remember him doing it as scum. He's more of a float along, look busy, sort of scum player if he has the time. When he doesn't have the time he's a hardcore lurker/flake no matter what his alignment.

[morph the cat]

356 and next post in ISO are pretty cheeky responses to being scumread by thezmon.

do you think this is something he can't fake as scum?

630 reads list is pretty iconoclastic in some ways.

for me this reads list just seemed to list off all the popular opinions at the time. he had Mac/SSK the two lurkers as null, you/me/giffycho/varsoon town, wayne scum vs. zmuffin town, and bro/thez scum. I'm not too sure what's iconoclastic about that, can you elaborate plz?

I could be misremembering where the townreads and scumreads were trending at that point, but his list did not look like some sort of "average" take. I don't have time to research this in detail right now, but will try to get back to it before the day ends. I don't see myself voting TNE today unless someone I'd trust enough to follow them off a cliff presents an absolutely killer case.

885, 886 cases on his scumreads. This is way more detailed and thoughtful than what I'm used to seeing from TNE. If he's town I hope he'll play like this more often.

that'd be fine but a lot of the stuff in there was invalid. for example the wayne vote on Varsoon that he had already explained. and IMO posting a detailed case doesn't seem at all like something town-TNE would do. that combined with the previous statement makes me unsure on this

TNE's play is extremely variable. This does not look like his scum play at all to me. And IME when someone really shakes up their game, they're more likely to be town than scum because the risks to one's team are less, and because it's a lot easier to be genuine and different than it is to be fake and different - cognitively the latter is a much greater load.

Subsequent back and forth with BRO feels very much like someone who thinks they are talking to scum.

for me it just seemed like he was tunneling BRO the whole game, which again I can't remember him doing as town

I can't remember him doing it as scum. He's more of a float along, look busy, sort of scum player if he has the time. When he doesn't have the time he's a hardcore lurker/flake no matter what his alignment.

damn it

[pieguyn]

since I have no completed games with TNE-scum, my meta arguments on him are entirely based on around stuff that I find missing from his towngame

the point about one-liners is interesting. his play in that game actually reminds me of what I know of his towngame, without so many one-liners 0.0 so for now IMO it'd probably be better to attribute most of the meta differences to TNE-inconsistency more than anything else. I could try to make a case on TNE if you trust me enough, but without the meta disconnect it mostly comes down to tunneling and false logic.

but I still don't want to lynch BRO

who the hell should I lynch then > <