Mewbie 1442 the second -- Game over

[Malakittens]

2.01

With 7 alive it's 4 votes to lynch.

Voting for:

*CrisP -
*Yiu113 -
*goodmorning - CrisP [1]
*Brian Skies -
*jmo16mla - Goodmorning [1]
*ArcAngel9 -
*Buckwild -
*Nachomamma8 -

Not voting: Buckwild, jmo16mla, ArcAngel9, Brian Skies, Yiu113 [5]

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2013-11-28 21:56:00)

[CrisP]

This is WIFOM, WIFOM is bad and the first part looks extra specially bad.

Nacho was probably the strongest player in this game.

This is as much wine in front of me as the reasons I give, any discussion about night kills can be WIFOM, that does not mean you can't consider them. What especially didnt't you like about the first part?

Also the best player in the game, according to you, was dead wrong day 1 and did his best to save a mafia?

Because the mod could need to reach me overnight for any number of reasons and I like to let folks know when I'll be unavailable?

Sure and you did not consider how people would react upon reading you were V/LA during the night time.

Are you saying bussing is impossible?

Yes, day 1, 2 v 7 with 2 town power roles you don't know about, getting your buddy killed for no reason is just not a good option, unless now you think Nacho is a bad player? If RM was under heavy scrutiny before Nacho started accusing her and he threw in his vote, that was one thing, but to start the whole suspicion on her, vote her, and let her die is just very unlikely. You apparently agree:

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?
Do you have a history of bussing/bussing early in your scumgames

So what you are saying is: you are about to discover if RM is town or mafia, and your first thought is, let's check Nacho because he might have bussed her?

The same one I've had the entire time. If you haven't been reading my posts that's a crying shame. It's Buck.

So you RSV'ed Buck and since then you are convinced he is mafia, I hope you have more to say about this accusation because up to now you certainly haven't made it clear, and yes, I have read your posts.

[goodmorning]

This is WIFOM, WIFOM is bad and the first part looks extra specially bad.

Nacho was probably the strongest player in this game.

This is as much wine in front of me as the reasons I give, any discussion about night kills can be WIFOM, that does not mean you can't consider them. What especially didnt't you like about the first part?

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.
I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

Also the best player in the game, according to you, was dead wrong day 1 and did his best to save a mafia?

good =/= infallible

Because the mod could need to reach me overnight for any number of reasons and I like to let folks know when I'll be unavailable?

Sure and you did not consider how people would react upon reading you were V/LA during the night time.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

I don't like the way you're trying to make this scummy when it's completely null.

Are you saying bussing is impossible?

Yes, day 1, 2 v 7 with 2 town power roles you don't know about, getting your buddy killed for no reason is just not a good option, unless now you think Nacho is a bad player? If RM was under heavy scrutiny before Nacho started accusing her and he threw in his vote, that was one thing, but to start the whole suspicion on her, vote her, and let her die is just very unlikely.

If you think your partner's going to be dead weight sometimes it is a good option.
Regardless:

You apparently agree:

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?
Do you have a history of bussing/bussing early in your scumgames

No. I was saying that specifically about jmo. Nacho is a very different species of player imo.

So what you are saying is: you are about to discover if RM is town or mafia, and your first thought is, let's check Nacho because he might have bussed her?

No. What I am saying is: RM is lynched. I think Nacho has been acting suspiciously regardless of her flip. I want to take a closer look at him.

The same one I've had the entire time. If you haven't been reading my posts that's a crying shame. It's Buck.

So you RSV'ed Buck and since then you are convinced he is mafia, I hope you have more to say about this accusation because up to now you certainly haven't made it clear, and yes, I have read your posts.

voting early =/= RVS

seriously

[CrisP]

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.

So what you are saying is we should just ignore NK's?

I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

1. There is no arrogance in stating facts, it's a fact I was town read by most people in the game day 1. It is also a fact that mafia has every interest in killing slots that are thought of by most as town because that increases their chances of hiding among suspicious people.

2. If you read the follow up you will see why I wrote it, it was not done in order to "wave it in your face" but using it as a premise for the reasoning that comes after it. The fact you are debating the premise and ignoring the reasoning by screaming WIFOM, instead of pointing out what is wrong and what might be right from your POV looks scummy.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

Here you are answering a question you were not asked, clearly worried that someone might check if you were active during your supposed V/LA (which makes it even more artificial), instead of the reply I was expecting, which would have gone along the lines of: no I did not think about what others would think about my post because I was just telling something to the mod. Guilty conscience someone?

voting early =/= RVS

Are you trying to argue that your vote on Buck, after he voted and unvoted Immuno, was not an RVS but an early scum tell? Here again I see you debating semantics, instead of giving valid content so that we may judge for ourselves if what you are saying has merit or if you are just bullshitting.

[Yiu113]

Just to inform you all, I will not be able to do too much today after this post, as I have plans that will occupy me until Saturday. However, I will be active when I get back.

Until then, however, might as well share some thoughts on some posts.

-297: I'm certainly not the best at finding reads, so I often base my opinions on people off of how active they've been. Probably hardwired into me from playing on a different website where the average day length was 3 days, so a person lurking would be missing days very easily. Other than that, about you seeing the high probability of there being a scum between myself and Goodmorning, I don't blame you. Goodmorning has been playing incredibly defensively up to this point, and while the person who is very defensive isn't always mafia, it usually is a fairly good read.

-301 through 303: Crisp heavily pressuring Goodmorning is not surprising in the slightest, as he was one of the two on his list of most likely to be scum. I'm not entirely certain how I feel about the point that he brings up about Goodmorning going on leave right as night starts, which as I see it could be something where he's simply trying not to look like one of the people involved in the kill. However, it is a very minor scum read to me, if even that.

At this point, I do not have anyone that I would wish to vote for. Voting Goodmorning would allow the mafia to quickhammer him, assuming he's town, CrisP is town, and I am town, which would end up putting us into MyLo faster.

[goodmorning]

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.

So what you are saying is we should just ignore NK's?

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

1. There is no arrogance in stating facts, it's a fact I was town read by most people in the game day 1. It is also a fact that mafia has every interest in killing slots that are thought of by most as town because that increases their chances of hiding among suspicious people.

2. If you read the follow up you will see why I wrote it, it was not done in order to "wave it in your face" but using it as a premise for the reasoning that comes after it. The fact you are debating the premise and ignoring the reasoning by screaming WIFOM, instead of pointing out what is wrong and what might be right from your POV looks scummy.

It's not reasoning if it could be any one of a number of things.
It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.
And that particular brand of arrogance being used to position oneself as "ooh look I am so Town why didn't they kill me I am so confused because I am totes not Scum", that is what I don't like.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

Here you are answering a question you were not asked, clearly worried that someone might check if you were active during your supposed V/LA (which makes it even more artificial), instead of the reply I was expecting, which would have gone along the lines of: no I did not think about what others would think about my post because I was just telling something to the mod. Guilty conscience someone?

Here I am answering the question you were likely to ask next. Or was that not what you were getting at? I certainly wasn't thinking about it at the time. It was a blanket V/LA that I stated everywhere.

voting early =/= RVS

Are you trying to argue that your vote on Buck, after he voted and unvoted Immuno, was not an RVS but an early scum tell? Here again I see you debating semantics, instead of giving valid content so that we may judge for ourselves if what you are saying has merit or if you are just bullshitting.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

I absolutely did not vote Buck randomly.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

Here I see you trying to play around with my words. Why?

@Yiu: Lurking is not a scumtell. Depending on the player, defensiveness may not be either.
See me vs. fferyllt in the early part of N1351.

[CrisP]

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

The forefront of my reasoning is that there is a very high chance that inside the 4, or 5 if you extend it to BW, of you that voted for RM there is at least 1 mafia.

The rest is speculation so that: I can narrow it down, am able to get people's reactions and see what happens once I start applying pressure, à la bull in the china shop.

It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.

At least you are making your point here, but I still disagree, if you are mafia and you know someone is going to go after you, you have a strong motivation to get rid of him/her. How do you rate jmo16mla as a mafia player?

Here I am answering the question you were likely to ask next. Or was that not what you were getting at? I certainly wasn't thinking about it at the time. It was a blanket V/LA that I stated everywhere.

This is true.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

If you often give early scumreads, sometimes you will get it right, maybe it makes sense for you but I can't really see someone picking up something by reading their first post.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

What is this reason? Why did you never mention him during the day after switching your vote to me, then to JM and finally to RM? Why did you interact with him so little if you thought he was scum? You never asked him a question day 1, just answered when he prodded you.

Here I see you trying to play around with my words. Why?

Asking the same question in different ways is a consistency test, it also gives more information since you tend to answer in different ways.

Lurking is not a scumtell.

It should be, also you voted RM mainly for that over JM, which now apparently is a confirmed mafia to you.

[goodmorning]

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

The forefront of my reasoning is that there is a very high chance that inside the 4, or 5 if you extend it to BW, of you that voted for RM there is at least 1 mafia.

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

The rest is speculation so that: I can narrow it down, am able to get people's reactions and see what happens once I start applying pressure, à la bull in the china shop.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.

At least you are making your point here, but I still disagree, if you are mafia and you know someone is going to go after you, you have a strong motivation to get rid of him/her. How do you rate jmo16mla as a mafia player?

Well then I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree on that.
I haven't seen jmo's play thus far, so I don't really know. Less than Nacho, but then I do mildly pedestalize Nacho.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

If you often give early scumreads, sometimes you will get it right, maybe it makes sense for you but I can't really see someone picking up something by reading their first post.

I don't usually, sometimes it just happens. That's the point I was trying to make here.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

What is this reason? Why did you never mention him during the day after switching your vote to me, then to JM and finally to RM? Why did you interact with him so little if you thought he was scum? You never asked him a question day 1, just answered when he prodded you.

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.
The initial reason was his immuno vote.

Lurking is not a scumtell.

It should be, also you voted RM mainly for that over JM, which now apparently is a confirmed mafia to you.

Actually, I voted Rach for her bad vote on jmo. If she had flipped red then jmo would be nigh on confTown to me. But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

[ArcAngel9]

yay..Day 2 here but sadly i cant post till monday

v/la till monday please

[Brian Skies]

Probably won't post until Sunday. Sorry about that.

[CrisP]

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

, do you also find power roles problematic? Because in that case we can just just use a random generator for lynches and see if we win the game. Jokes aside, every strategy in mafia uses incomplete information, so it's always going to be fallible, this does not mean you can't use it and most of the time if it's a reasonable strategy it will help you.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It's too early to say, at the very least it provides a lot of information. For instance, after having read your answers and some of your mafia defences I can say you are either upping your game here and fooling me our my accusations are wrong, still thinking about it. Look at it from my POV:

- Day 1 you only gave away reads when prodded, in answer to someone prodding you, or discussed theory points with us, which I guess is your way of being a dutiful IC so a nul.
- You have also been very wishy washy in your posts, you keep on saying stuff like, on the one hand x, but on the other hand y, which is very annyoing for townies because we don't know what you mean so you create confusion and very handy as a mafia player cause you can always reference one of the parts if you get under some heat.
- You said you weren't playing your best game, something often done to cover slip ups.
- You joined both bandwagons
- The only votes you started where on things other people thought poor, BW's immuno joke and my mistake about DC's role in the first setup.

Doesn't this look scummy to you?

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.

It's a possible strategy, so did you get something from his day 1 after letting him relax? If the only thing you are going with is the immuno vote you'll have to agree it's a pretty weak read, at least from a logical point of view.

But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

See that's in part my problem. You were the one who stopped it dead in it's tracks, if you had kept your vote on him then I would have argued with BW that even if he liked JM's defence JM made much more sense from a strategic point of view, his reaction then would have been telling. Let's also not forget we could all be townies going at each other, a possibility which you seem to be ignoring.

You make some good points though, the play I mentioned and that you think is arrogance on my part, of leaving me alive because I had the wrong reads, also works with BW because if he is mafia he managed to partially pocket me day 1.

For the rest of town, what do you think about a possible JM BW pair, what about a GM BR one?

[Buckwild]

Will post soon, just came off a 24 hours shift.

[Buckwild]

Alright,

Crisp: Not going into anymore given that he is town. If he were mafia he would not have to post so much to win this. Usually I'm uneasy about people buddying up with me but in this case I don't care since Crisp is def town.

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me. Either way, he feels even more town than ever since his last few posts. Crisp, I think you are wasting your time on GM.

DC/AA: This ones ez. Still null, but this all changes depending on AA's next post.

Even if I assume AA is a lurking scum, there is still one more scum between these three:

JMO: Still being useless in my eyes. Not giving any reads or analyses of anyone, just yelling at people when he gets voted by them. He appears much more scummy today than yesterday.

GIF/YUI: SO GIF's first attack is on me which was in response to me questioning him. He doesn't do anything useful all game and just outright avoids questions directed toward him. He lurks a bit then ends with the rachel vote which itself is null. Yui comes in with a great post that I agree with for the most part. I don't see how AA is the scummiest person on the list. Finally though, I do not like her not having anyone she would vote for after 13 pages of info. IMO scum often find it hard to point to someone to call scum since they know everyone else cept their partner is town.

Brian/Dr. Robot: Since his first couple posts, he has been lurking as well. I disagree with Yui as I do not think Brian's posts were that useful, especially the first one. Brian, you were pretty strong on coming after JMO earlier on. Now that Crisp is moving away from JMO, what do you think of JMO?

Ultimately my vote would be on 1. YUI 2. JMO or 3. Brian right now.

[CrisP]

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me. Either way, he feels even more town than ever since his last few posts. Crisp, I think you are wasting your time on GM.

If it helps to clear her it's not time wasted, especially since her play day 1 doesn't seem very town at all to me, but I agree, the more I look at her defence day 2 the more it looks like she is town.

UNVOTE:

JM has been very cryptic today, I'm waiting for his post to see what he is hinting at before thinking about the situation again.

Yui how often have you played mafia? I liked your post and your answer but it feels a bit like your are playing the newbie card.

[jmo16mla]

Alright,

Crisp: Not going into anymore given that he is town. If he were mafia he would not have to post so much to win this. Usually I'm uneasy about people buddying up with me but in this case I don't care since Crisp is def town.

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me. Either way, he feels even more town than ever since his last few posts. Crisp, I think you are wasting your time on GM.

DC/AA: This ones ez. Still null, but this all changes depending on AA's next post.

Even if I assume AA is a lurking scum, there is still one more scum between these three:

JMO: Still being useless in my eyes. Not giving any reads or analyses of anyone, just yelling at people when he gets voted by them. He appears much more scummy today than yesterday.

GIF/YUI: SO GIF's first attack is on me which was in response to me questioning him. He doesn't do anything useful all game and just outright avoids questions directed toward him. He lurks a bit then ends with the rachel vote which itself is null. Yui comes in with a great post that I agree with for the most part. I don't see how AA is the scummiest person on the list. Finally though, I do not like her not having anyone she would vote for after 13 pages of info. IMO scum often find it hard to point to someone to call scum since they know everyone else cept their partner is town.

Brian/Dr. Robot: Since his first couple posts, he has been lurking as well. I disagree with Yui as I do not think Brian's posts were that useful, especially the first one. Brian, you were pretty strong on coming after JMO earlier on. Now that Crisp is moving away from JMO, what do you think of JMO?

Ultimately my vote would be on 1. YUI 2. JMO or 3. Brian right now.

Why aren't you voting someone then?

[CrisP]

Why aren't you voting someone then?

Why are you more interested in his vote than about his reads?

[Buckwild]

Why aren't you voting someone then?

ok. If you want one.
VOTE: JMO

[jmo16mla]

Why aren't you voting your top scum read?

[jmo16mla]

Why aren't you voting someone then?

Why are you more interested in his vote than about his reads?

Because I'm phone posting and I can't rally post comprehensive posts on my phone.

His reads were meh. I really don't see how he can call me even more useless than yesterday. Anyways. I'm feeling nacho was killed because he was defending me so much. Without him is be an easy lynch right?

[Buckwild]

Why aren't you voting your top scum read?

Just cause someone else is my top scum read doesn't mean I can't vote you.

[Buckwild]

Because I'm phone posting and I can't rally post comprehensive posts on my phone.

His reads were meh. I really don't see how he can call me even more useless than yesterday. Anyways. I'm feeling nacho was killed because he was defending me so much. Without him is be an easy lynch right?

You must have been posting from your phone since the beginning cause almost all of your posts are one liners that comment on other people's "comprehensive" posts. You are useless cause you aren't giving any thing novel and useful.

[jmo16mla]

I find it rather stupid to not vote your top scum read... You should really think about what you just said.

Yep, useless. You kept your vote on GIF all of yesterday and did NOTHING with it. Not a damn thing.

[Buckwild]

WTF? The pressure fell of him at one point cause everyone was telling me he was just being GIF. I pushed, he was an ass and it went nowhere. Also, I actually posted reads which at least give us something to work with unlike your single line quips.

[CrisP]

Guys, as much as I'm having fun seeing your bussing techniques at work I don't want to give free reign to my sadistic nature, you are both making a key assumption that only mafia would make, I'm sure the rest of town can figure it out.

jmo16mla: sorry if I was a bit of an ass with you, but I needed you to believe I did not think you would kill nacho off. Unfortunately you made a few slip ups this game, so there was no way I was clearing you. You overdid it a bit coming out of the gate and trying to spoon feed GM into giving the reason you wanted us to hear of why Nacho was killed, also waiting for me to go on you so you could post we were the scum pair was not the best plan.

Buck: you played a good game, god knows what GM picked up on you in your first post, woman's intuition I guess, the problem is your reads are too good, look at how you cleared Nacho when he was protecting JM

he is definitely town

or how you told me GM was town and that I was

wasting time

, wasting time for you because you already know her alignment, or how you have no doubt whatsoever about my alignment

given that he is town

, trying to buss JM once you knew he was a goner was a good idea, but I'd advise against hiding your mafia in the middle of your scum reads, that has become a classic tell... maybe going against Brian when he pointed you out as a pair was a bit too much but in and by itself it was not such a huge thing.

VOTE: jmo16mla

[jmo16mla]

You just made a case on buck then you voted me? I'm not sure Buck is scum and I don't he is going anywhere today.

I asked GM why she thought he was killed and she gave me a dumb answer. I didn't make her type anything. Scum LOVE to bring up the NK.

If you really think about it, Nacho was one of the few people that defended me. Along with GIF. So why not pick the easy lynch?

Now, if I had to guess, scum team would be GM and maybe arc/brian. Still hard to get a read on either of those slots.

youre being anti town

I don't think nacho was having a great game. I didn't see him getting NK'd.

VOTE: brian