Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Day 1, Votecount 16

Street Hassle [1]

Kid A

Kid A [0]

TvK [0]

My Milked Eek [3]

Herself, Squirrel Girl, Garmr

LolWagons [2]

ICEninja, havingfitz

Regfan [0]

ICEninja [0]

Garmr [0]

Squirrel Girl [0]

The Silver Bard [1]

TvK

Wake88 [0]

Herself [1]

The Silver Bard

havingfitz [3]

Street Hassle, LolWagons, Regfan

Not Voting [2]

- My Milked Eek, Wake88

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is on November 23rd at 7:30 AM PST or in (expired on 2013-11-23 07:30:00)

[The Silver Bard]

1. As I said in my book SH was pretty townie at this point. So the reason why I find it scummie is that I disagree. Alone it is just something I give a little scumpoint (somthing that make me abit suspicious about you), but it is the sum of things that make me lean this way or that way.

2. I like real pressure, with real reasoning behind it. Alot of voteswitches provides little pressure IMO, and makes it hard to understand what your true stance is.

3. Even though I don't agree with some of your reads on the readlist (mainly SH and Herself) and even if you don't provide reasons it at least gives a picture of what you think at the moment. I like that you give such a list upon request, it shows that you are willing to cooperate :9

1. But obviously that matters less than your ability to decide if I am calling them scum for scummy or townish reasons. Does my logic for suspecting them make sense to you? If yes, then why am I scummy for thinking like that? If no, how does my logic fail to make sense and what does that tell you about my alignment?

2. I disagree. I still don't understand how that makes me scummy - scum wouldn't want to give away their ability to create pressure votes, and though I guess it makes sense that it would make it hard to understand my stance and that this makes me scummy, I don't think my stances have been ahrd to understand. Have you had trouble understanding my stances? Is that why you find me scummy?

1. It is always hard to deduct whether something is done for townie or scummy reasons. You also have to account for player skills here. But since I don’t know whether someone is good or bad in this game (haven’t got any experience with any of you, except some games I have replaced out of) I have default bad=scum attitude. With this said. Does your logic make sense to me:

a. Correct me if I am wrong here. But you are voting SH for not wanting to discuss why he metavoted BF in post #43 right? And that the reason for not wanting to discuss it (not having discussed Empires findings in detail) seems fake and made up.

i. If you believe that this is fake and made up, it is logical for you to believe that SH is scum. So far it is logical.

ii. Fferyllt not knowing the entire reasoning behind why Empire thinking BF is scum seems plausible to me. So her reasons for not wanting to discuss it seems logical.

iii. You believing it to be fake though is plausible. Even though I believe it to be the truth. But since I believe fferyllt is telling the truth I find your reasoning illogical.

b. So to sum it up I think it is plausible for you to think this as town, but I find it illogical because I believe fferyllt is telling the truth. But it is logical for you to not take fferyllt’s word for it. You having a different stance on this than me, doesn’t isolated tell much about your alignment. I think it is possible for a townplayer to think this, but I find it more plausible that fferyllt told the truth, hence I give you a scumpoint for it.

2. Yes I have somewhat been having trouble with understanding your stances and the reasons behind it. Simply because I disagree. You moving your vote around might just be your way of play, you move it whenever someone does something you don’t like, instead of keeping it on the one who in sum looks more scummy. But it could also be a scummove that allows you to vote whoever you want without being held accountable for it.

[Squirrel Girl]

but I find it illogical because I believe fferyllt is telling the truth

This is the catch. You shouldn't find it illogical - you believe it is incorrect due to a deduction you have decided upon. Though, considering your way of figuring out town and scum is to just apply points to posts, why do you believe what they are saying? If you think me not being clear on my reads is scummy, and describing them when asked is townish, then why is a player declining to share reads not scummy, and me calling them out for doing so scummy? That actually seems to not make sense when added all together. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Garmr]

SG is your read on silver still the same.

[Squirrel Girl]

Yeppers.

[My Milked Eek]

I read some iso's and laid out my thoughts. There sure is a lot of fluff and silly stuff going around (nuts and robots, really?).


Town reads:

Street Hassle

The only annoyance I have is the heavy emphasis on meta. The way I see it is that metaing should be used as a complimentary tool to scumhunting and not as a starting point. I don't see a lot of content based on the thread (in comparison to the meta stuff).

LolWagons/TSO

- tso wasn't that scummy to warrant the amount of suspicion he received, he simply overreached (11 games)

ICE

SG

In between:

The Silver Bard /Orestes

What's the case against orestes? I saw some accusations but I don't remember why. Leaning towards town on this slot.

Herself

Having fitz

What's the case again against having fitz? His first two posts? Is there anything else? I can't remember.

Regfan/Banksys

- banksys, I got nothing, nullposts result in a nullread
- regfan, leaning towards town based on his posts, but to be honest, I skimmed his ISO and the only thing that stuck was that I was on his scum list a few times and a few posts later he posts "We uh kind of want lurkers to flake and sub out. It means they'll be replaced by someone that's likely more active and thus more readable." (#429). The two don't exclude each other (especially since my one post had been interpreted as scummy by many), but it does feel a bit contradictory.

TvK

Puts out only town reads (and even then, sparsely), has a vote on orestes since his first post, has no other scumreads (but could join my wagon #383). I'm leaning scum, but I haven't seen enough content to get a more solid reading.

Wake88/Quadraxis

Was that robot thing really necessary? I couldn't bring myself to read all that crap and actually intended to policy lynch you for it.

Your walls are also annoying. Condense your thoughts please. When I read that wall and saw that you were only up to post #60 something I lost the courage to continue reading your iso. Are you trying to submit us into a town read by heavy posting? The only upside is that you're not just rehashing the thread. And what's with not doing anything with the answers to your questions?

Nullread. If anything, more of an annoying what-are-you-doing read. I just couldn't be bothered after that "caught up to post #60" line. Seriously.


Scum reads:

Kid A

Post #474 is probably the only post commentable by Kid A (besides his votes, but lol). I just can't imagine anyone voting for Street Hassle at this stage of this game and his explanation is really lackluster (hydra interaction #456). His reason for orestes would warrant his vote more imo and voting Street Hassle (just for a hydra thing) is really stretching it.

Garmr

I don't like the "nutsy mcsexytails" thing he had going early on. Reeks of buddying up to SG while voting on her -throws a chestnut against garm's head-. The reason to the vote is also meh at most. The theory linking is also raising some bells.

And then he drops the vote on me. And it's not because he voted me that I find that vote suspicious. The context to this vote is:
- he's suspicious of orestes
- "fitz is looking suspicious as well (but he might mess up day 2)" (wat?)
- "But to answer your question in order of who I would want out I would say Orestes, then milked and finally tso."
I don't understand why anyone would switch from their first suspicion to their second, I just don't. Perhaps he felt the town mood was right (let's lynch lurkers!) and felt the need to pile on, I don't know, but I do know that I don't like that post sequence/vote.

There's just too much fluff in his posts, too many nuts being thrown and illogical vote placement.

Vote: garmr

However, if you give me that perfect Larvitar, I'll drop the suspicions

[The Silver Bard]

but I find it illogical because I believe fferyllt is telling the truth

This is the catch. You shouldn't find it illogical - you believe it is incorrect due to a deduction you have decided upon. Though, considering your way of figuring out town and scum is to just apply points to posts, why do you believe what they are saying? If you think me not being clear on my reads is scummy, and describing them when asked is townish, then why is a player declining to share reads not scummy, and me calling them out for doing so scummy? That actually seems to not make sense when added all together. Am I misunderstanding something?

I believe what fferyllt is saying is true because at this point I am townreading SH (From my excellsheet post #62 and #92 is something I like alot). I also believe what fferyllt is saying is true because it is not always easy to explain the reasoning of another head in a hydra, and therefor them going into depths about Empire's read here isn't something they necessarily have done.

But yes, I agree with you that not wanting to share your reads is in itself scummy. But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

So the short answer to why I read your post here on the scummy side is:
I believe in SH(Fferyllt's) explanation.
I think SH is pretty high on my townreadlist at this point. And I don't see why a townie would vote someone that in my eyes is town.

[Squirrel Girl]

But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

He actually didn't give the real explanation till much later - the explanation that he gave me that you liked was him stalling for time.

[TvK]

1. Yes, me and you disagreeing about who is town and who is scum is something that makes you scummier in my book.

As far as I understand your reasoning, this seems to me like the core of your case on Herself. I don't know what you are trying here, but in my book your only making yourself look worse. Unless you know yourself exactly who is town and who isn't, this is not a legit reason.

And I don't see why a townie would vote someone that in my eyes is town.

Once again, the same BS. What if ICE would walk in right now and vote Street? Or the other way around? Then they would be instascum, right? I love where my vote is at this moment.

[The Silver Bard]

I'll give you this though SG. Your way of arguing against me is rubbing me the right way. You seem composed and logical in your rebuttals. It may be that you are just some sweettalker, but I definately like players who argues like you better than players who get overly defensive. Because presenting the arguements like you do now, compared to wordtwisting, highlights the actual points that are being argued over, instead of trying to misrepresent the other one.

[Squirrel Girl]

It may be that you are just some sweettalker,

My lips taste like hazelnuts.

[Garmr]

I read some iso's and laid out my thoughts. There sure is a lot of fluff and silly stuff going around (nuts and robots, really?).


Town reads:

Street Hassle

The only annoyance I have is the heavy emphasis on meta. The way I see it is that metaing should be used as a complimentary tool to scumhunting and not as a starting point. I don't see a lot of content based on the thread (in comparison to the meta stuff).

LolWagons/TSO

- tso wasn't that scummy to warrant the amount of suspicion he received, he simply overreached (11 games)

ICE

SG

In between:

The Silver Bard /Orestes

What's the case against orestes? I saw some accusations but I don't remember why. Leaning towards town on this slot.

Herself

Having fitz

What's the case again against having fitz? His first two posts? Is there anything else? I can't remember.

Regfan/Banksys

- banksys, I got nothing, nullposts result in a nullread
- regfan, leaning towards town based on his posts, but to be honest, I skimmed his ISO and the only thing that stuck was that I was on his scum list a few times and a few posts later he posts "We uh kind of want lurkers to flake and sub out. It means they'll be replaced by someone that's likely more active and thus more readable." (#429). The two don't exclude each other (especially since my one post had been interpreted as scummy by many), but it does feel a bit contradictory.

TvK

Puts out only town reads (and even then, sparsely), has a vote on orestes since his first post, has no other scumreads (but could join my wagon #383). I'm leaning scum, but I haven't seen enough content to get a more solid reading.

Wake88/Quadraxis

Was that robot thing really necessary? I couldn't bring myself to read all that crap and actually intended to policy lynch you for it.

Your walls are also annoying. Condense your thoughts please. When I read that wall and saw that you were only up to post #60 something I lost the courage to continue reading your iso. Are you trying to submit us into a town read by heavy posting? The only upside is that you're not just rehashing the thread. And what's with not doing anything with the answers to your questions?

Nullread. If anything, more of an annoying what-are-you-doing read. I just couldn't be bothered after that "caught up to post #60" line. Seriously.


Scum reads:

Kid A

Post #474 is probably the only post commentable by Kid A (besides his votes, but lol). I just can't imagine anyone voting for Street Hassle at this stage of this game and his explanation is really lackluster (hydra interaction #456). His reason for orestes would warrant his vote more imo and voting Street Hassle (just for a hydra thing) is really stretching it.

Garmr

I don't like the "nutsy mcsexytails" thing he had going early on. Reeks of buddying up to SG while voting on her -throws a chestnut against garm's head-. The reason to the vote is also meh at most. The theory linking is also raising some bells.

And then he drops the vote on me. And it's not because he voted me that I find that vote suspicious. The context to this vote is:
- he's suspicious of orestes
- "fitz is looking suspicious as well (but he might mess up day 2)" (wat?)
- "But to answer your question in order of who I would want out I would say Orestes, then milked and finally tso."
I don't understand why anyone would switch from their first suspicion to their second, I just don't. Perhaps he felt the town mood was right (let's lynch lurkers!) and felt the need to pile on, I don't know, but I do know that I don't like that post sequence/vote.

There's just too much fluff in his posts, too many nuts being thrown and illogical vote placement.

Vote: garmr

However, if you give me that perfect Larvitar, I'll drop the suspicions

Ok but I don't consider myself buddying more like compromising to get a potential wagon on a common scum read going also I have a town read on her and she's fun to talk to and I am probably generating more fluff because I am having fun with the people in this game.

Also I would but I don't have wifi and all I have is female Larvitar and female pokemon are only good for breeding.

[The Silver Bard]

But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

He actually didn't give the real explanation till much later - the explanation that he gave me that you liked was him stalling for time.

Hmm. It is your post 126 I didn't like. And the way I am reading it SH's post 116 is where fferyllt is saying that they didn't discuss the findings in detail. Correct me if I am missing something here.

[The Silver Bard]

1. Yes, me and you disagreeing about who is town and who is scum is something that makes you scummier in my book.

As far as I understand your reasoning, this seems to me like the core of your case on Herself. I don't know what you are trying here, but in my book your only making yourself look worse. Unless you know yourself exactly who is town and who isn't, this is not a legit reason.

And I don't see why a townie would vote someone that in my eyes is town.

Once again, the same BS. What if ICE would walk in right now and vote Street? Or the other way around? Then they would be instascum, right? I love where my vote is at this moment.

This is what I talk about when I said wordtwisters. Annoying to argue with, because all they want to do is try to misrepresent. I'll correct one thing in your post because it is so ridiculously wrong:

What if ICE would walk in right now and vote Street? Or the other way around? Then they would be instascum, right?

WRONG. As I have said numerous times a single post doesn't make someone instant scum or instant town. It is the sum of it. If one of those came in and voted the other I would put a point on the scumside of one of them, and perhaps try to understand why he suddenly was thinking this.

Keep coming at me with wordtwisting arguements though. I have you as likely scum anyways...

[Squirrel Girl]

But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

He actually didn't give the real explanation till much later - the explanation that he gave me that you liked was him stalling for time.

Hmm. It is your post 126 I didn't like. And the way I am reading it SH's post 116 is where fferyllt is saying that they didn't discuss the findings in detail. Correct me if I am missing something here.

You are missing later when the other head showed up to explain the read and the read was 'it was a reaction test, and we're still not going to explain it so we can keep doing reaction tests if we want' Which means they never intended to discuss the read with me and always knew it was a reaction test, but were lying/putting me off so that they didn't have to say that out loud and let Banksys know it was a reaction test. Meaning that, when you say you believe them, what you believed was them putting off saying anything while not actually being truthful about why, meanwhile I didn't like it, and was correct that they were hiding something for strategic purposes. I have decided that what they did was not really that great, but even if you have decided that what they did was town motivated and legit and everything they said was true - that still means you're suspecting me as scum because I correctly identified that they were being hidden about a read. Now, you can try to explain that as scum me trying to press on them to make a town thing they decided to do look scummy, but don't tell me I had no reason to doubt their word. Clearly I did and was right about it.

Why don't you remember any of that happening?

[My Milked Eek]

... excluded for brevity ...

Ok but I don't consider myself buddying more like compromising to get a potential wagon on a common scum read going also I have a town read on her and she's fun to talk to and I am probably generating more fluff because I am having fun with the people in this game.

Eh, no. Calling someone sexy mcnutstail or throwing acorns around is not getting a wagon together, it's buddying.

But that's not the main point of my vote, that's just seasoning. I really want to know why you decided to ditch your first scumread in favor of your second. It's not like I did anything between your list (where you had me as second) and your vote.

Also I would but I don't have wifi and all I have is female Larvitar and female pokemon are only good for breeding.

I was also kidding.

[Garmr]

... excluded for brevity ...

Ok but I don't consider myself buddying more like compromising to get a potential wagon on a common scum read going also I have a town read on her and she's fun to talk to and I am probably generating more fluff because I am having fun with the people in this game.

Eh, no. Calling someone sexy mcnutstail or throwing acorns around is not getting a wagon together, it's buddying.

But that's not the main point of my vote, that's just seasoning. I really want to know why you decided to ditch your first scumread in favor of your second. It's not like I did anything between your list (where you had me as second) and your vote.

Also I would but I don't have wifi and all I have is female Larvitar and female pokemon are only good for breeding.

I was also kidding.

Because I was also starting to have doubts if ort would continue playing as SG said he was the type to flake.

@Also I consider myself a pokemon breeder I take pride in my pokemon .

[My Milked Eek]

How does his tendency to flake make any difference towards the alignment of that player slot?

[Garmr]

I wanted to see how the person in the new slot would act.

[Garmr]

I get the feeling you and I don't think the same.

[The Silver Bard]

But here fferyllt explained why, and I buy that explanation.

He actually didn't give the real explanation till much later - the explanation that he gave me that you liked was him stalling for time.

Hmm. It is your post 126 I didn't like. And the way I am reading it SH's post 116 is where fferyllt is saying that they didn't discuss the findings in detail. Correct me if I am missing something here.

You are missing later when the other head showed up to explain the read and the read was 'it was a reaction test, and we're still not going to explain it so we can keep doing reaction tests if we want' Which means they never intended to discuss the read with me and always knew it was a reaction test, but were lying/putting me off so that they didn't have to say that out loud and let Banksys know it was a reaction test. Meaning that, when you say you believe them, what you believed was them putting off saying anything while not actually being truthful about why, meanwhile I didn't like it, and was correct that they were hiding something for strategic purposes. I have decided that what they did was not really that great, but even if you have decided that what they did was town motivated and legit and everything they said was true - that still means you're suspecting me as scum because I correctly identified that they were being hidden about a read. Now, you can try to explain that as scum me trying to press on them to make a town thing they decided to do look scummy, but don't tell me I had no reason to doubt their word. Clearly I did and was right about it.

Why don't you remember any of that happening?

To be honest I might have filtered this out in my read through, as something I thought was immaterial. I don't know. I see now that you point it out that you guys keep discussing this in #152 and #154 (and maybe even further, but I won't keep chasing the tail of this).

My main point and what I took a note of though is that you voted SH in post 126, at a point where I had him as a strong townread. Under further investigating on your inquiry I checked the reason for your vote, and still disagreed about it.

You might be right about them hiding their intent with their vote, and that is not something I generally like. And you might have done the right thing when pressuring them about it, I don’t know. But from the way I read the game at that point in time I found your vote strange. I will however put a note in my reads about this, that I might be mistaken about your intent behind it. Basically moving the read to a null.

[My Milked Eek]

I get the feeling you and I don't think the same.

You'd be voting yourself too if your head was screwed on straight.

I wanted to see how the person in the new slot would act.

By dropping the pressure?

[Garmr]

Sigh I am going to sleep. If you haven't noticed town can't agree on anything the most a wagon has got is 3 votes. Also your a pretty common scum read between most of us. I thought we might have our first real wagon. But there's so much bickering.

[ICEninja]

And I do wonder your initial vote for Herself ICEninja. You note that she spoke of Sakura but voted for Fitz, and you think that's justification enough for voting for her. Kindly explain that thought process to the class why don't you?

It was a page one vote on what was (essentially) my first post. I wanted to make a vote something more interesting than "____ has an anime avatar" or "Your name is scummy".

Too much paranoia can be a detriment to Town as well you know. Yeah, Scum can be really hard to find, but make damned sure you're aren't picking off Town in your paranoia. Don't make me have to keep your paranoia in check, please.

Oh well gee then I'll just use omniscience instead of scum hunting to find where to place my vote.

Why are you making such a big deal out of the first couple pages of the game? I would expect you to be fully caught up in the game by this point and would instead be focusing on highly relevant topics instead of votes people made with near-zero information.

What's your current read on Squirrel Girl?

I've stated my read on her several times. I'm really getting tired of you asking questions that I've clearly (and sometimes repeatedly) stated in the game. It hasn't changed much since the last time I stated that I am fully unwilling to see Nusty McSexytail lynched today.

Your promised read of Herself today would be awesome.

I'll be hopefully taking care of that in the next hour or so. I need to catch up first.

With TSO gone, are you going to continue pursuing his replacement (LolWagons) today?

READ MY FUCKING POSTS.

Why do you plan so far in advance, like saying you'll for sure vote "X" or "Y" Day 2?

This actually is a good question. I mostly do that to remind myself of connections. I'll often make statements such as "I'll remember this connection when x player flips as it will have y impact on z player" so when I go back and re-read the game later I'll find that. Most of my preferred lynched past day 1 are weighed largely by interactions and vote counts, and sometimes I get things in one read-through that I miss in future ones, and some things I get in future read-throughs that I missed the first time around. It's extra tricky to do this with day talk, however, so these statements will probably hold slightly less weight than they do in most of my games.

How exactly did Kid A increase on your Scum list significantly?

He was lurking heavily, someone asked where he was, and he replied with one word less than 10 minutes after said statement. Kid A is clearly reading the thread and actively lurking. This is super scummy considering how strong of scum hunters we have this game.

Why do you think having a supposed Vig killing lurkers is a good thing for Town?

In your average game, I would tend to hold my shot as a vig for night 1 simply due to lack of information. However, this game has such a strong core of clearly town players that sifting out some of the unknowns could (as I believe I worded it) speed this game along to easy-mode cleanup.

Looking over Silver Bard's questions and scum hunting I find myself simply underwhelmed. It seems town enough that's he's scum hunting, especially since he's bringing new things to the table, but I just don't find his cases convincing. I've had lots of mixed feelings about Herself but I noted that few if any of his reasons for voting Herself significantly resonated. I flat out disagree with almost everything he says about Squirrel Lady, and find most of his points either not scummy or not indicative of alignment at all.

That being said I feel like his posts addressed to TvK have merit to them.

Silver feels more or less like misguided town, but I simply can't justify giving him an outright town read at the moment. I'll toss him along with Garmr in the "meh" pile that are more likely to be town than scum.

I do not like Milked's post 530. The reads themselves aren't terrible but the REASONS he gives for his reads are absolutely awful and feel either super fake or like someone who is just pretending to read the game. I could easily see a player like him not really reading the game and just being given queues who to read as what by day chat buddies and giving bullshit reasoning for it. This guy is still comfortably lynchable today.

If people are going to continue to ignore how intensely scummy TSO's replacing out of this game was, I'll very likely vote Milked.

[ICEninja]

Damn I really wanted to go through and solidify my read on Herself for the day but she has just shy of 100 posts and I ran out of time catching up. I'll do my best to get this done tonight.