Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[Kid A]

You do realize the post in which I had voted her was my very first post of the game, right?

And you'd be amazed at how much I can read in how short of a time.

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

were these posts made by different heads or the same head

[TvK]

@TvK wrtPost 564...what would your read on me be if you weren't factoring in my not having posted in a while (Please note my sig block ). 

The fact you're tunnelling so hard on Herself. Apart from your arguement with them, which is not really going somewhere, I feel like you've not really looked at other players (maybe you have, but all the other players seem like a side note to you at the moment). In 2 posts you have given your reads, that mostly include null reads with a dash of leaning town. Your latest readlist looks a bit better (in terms of more balanced out), even though I don't like it that you find Wake and Eek town, when they only posted a little bit of content on the last couple of pages.

[Squirrel Girl]

Not true, though this puts the discussion pretty deep in might have beens.

Which means it is true for what happened though it might not have been what you intended.

[Kid A] was lurking heavily, someone asked where he was, and he replied with one word less than 10 minutes after said statement. Kid A is clearly reading the thread and actively lurking. This is super scummy considering how strong of scum hunters we have this game.

I;m extracting this from the wall, because I agree with it and also think it's a quite valid point.

anecdotal evidence

I'm glad that this was the most worhtwhile thing to comment on when you caught up. Will we be seeing you again in about three days for another deep analysis of the game and offering of your reads?

[Kid A]

You do realize the post in which I had voted her was my very first post of the game, right?

And you'd be amazed at how much I can read in how short of a time.

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

i still havent caught up i just scanned the latest page and saw that post

[Kid A]

fucking multiquote

[TvK]

Garmr, do you always react this heavy when someone calls you scummy? I actually found Fitz's points about you quite valid, and not as ignorant or omgus as you call it. Also, I don't like your explanation for your case on Fitz. So he's scummy because he was not going for the lurker, but rather for a player that posted a lot of content?

[Squirrel Girl]

i still havent caught up i just scanned the latest page and saw that post

So you're here and reading, but not keeping up with things. Why is that?

[Garmr]

TvK yep there hasn't been a game were I haven't reacted like this.

[Kid A]

i still havent caught up i just scanned the latest page and saw that post

So you're here and reading, but not keeping up with things. Why is that?

i am reading in order in another tab and checking this tab to see if anyone is directly addressing me with any questions

[Garmr]

Actually that's a lie now I think about it. My scum game N is for normal I played allot more passive when people called me scum. Better fix that.

[Street Hassle]

You do realize the post in which I had voted her was my very first post of the game, right?

And you'd be amazed at how much I can read in how short of a time.

all 3 games in that short of time?

huh

What are you trying to accomplish with this line of inquiry?

were these posts made by different heads or the same head

The first post was by Empire. The second post was by me.

[Kid A]

while youre here can you tell me empire's read on eek i am interested in hearing it

[Street Hassle]

while youre here can you tell me empire's read on eek i am interested in hearing it

We haven't had a chance to talk about the game since Eek became more active. I expect we'll discuss reads today or tomorrow depending on how our schedules mesh.

You can have my thoughts on Eek if you want them.

[Kid A]

yeah go ahead

[Street Hassle]

yeah go ahead

Seven posts.

The reads list is very sketchy looking, particularly the lack of reasoning for where several players are located in the lists. The game thread is 24 pages long now. And some of his naked reads are players with seriously high participation and relative kilotons of content. Also, where he goes into any detail about the player, it's often regarding purely playstyle based critique. This jumped out at me when I read his comments about us, one of his stronger town reads:

The only annoyance I have is the heavy emphasis on meta. The way I see it is that metaing should be used as a complimentary tool to scumhunting and not as a starting point. I don't see a lot of content based on the thread (in comparison to the meta stuff).

Nothing here about what justifies having us as strong town. Just "annoyance" over our scumhunting approach.

This looks like the sort of reads list that I struggle to avoid putting together when I'm scum. With so little substantive stance, it will be easy to make tactical adjustments. But the lack of stance is also a lack of stakes in the ground, showing how he's putting pictures together and processing the thread data.

There's one other thing about his recent play that bothers me. He threw the reads list up, but has made no effort to engage anyone and refine some of those null or reasonless reads. There's an exchange between him and garmr, his scum read, and he comes off almost conciliatory, starting a tiny pokemon side discussion with the player he's voting rather than really grappling with garmr.

I'm not at all happy with Eek. He and fitz are at the top of my list of players to discuss with Empire once we cross paths.

Also, and I repeat myself, seven posts.

[havingfitz]

@Garmr wrt Post 573...it's a crap case but that's a matter of opinion (backed up by fact and knowledge).  The way I omgus?  First off...whenever I am town I take pushes towards me to be potentially scum driven.  I.e scum like to mislynch town so when I am town...those trying to mislynch me come across as scum.  And i will never vote anyone (other than perhaps in RVS) strictly for OMGUS.  Omgus just adds to any suspicions I might have had.  And why would I "go for Orestes" if I suspected someone else more and wanted more content from that slot before further developing an opinion?  That makes absolutely no sense.  And yes...flips are good.  Thanks for that pointer.  Also...you still haven't explained your case on me.

@TvK wrt Post 576...I do not think you are giving me a fair shake with your assessment of my reads or of me tunneling.  I have not focused solely on Herself.  Defending myself against a poor case is not tunnelling and is necessary as that poor case is 1) negatively influencing town and or 2) enabling scum an easy wagon to hop aboard.  Both of which fmpov is bad.  I can not ignore it. 

You might also note that whereas I am not voting Herself atm whereas you have been voting the same slot the entire game.  Ironic? 

But back to what I was saying....I'm by no means tunneling.  I just don't throw my vote around easily to get reactions.  I vote people I am interested in seeing get lynched. 

Back to the reads.  I've provide reads in Post 187, Post 394 and Post 566.  They have been fairly consistent though they have changed a bit with the increased activity levels from some of the early underposters.  I.e Wake and Eek.  What would be a lot more suspect would be if my reads did not evolve as the game progresses.

[Squirrel Girl]

Street Hassle [1] Kid A
Kid A [0]
TvK [0]
My Milked Eek [3] Herself, Squirrel Girl, Garmr
LolWagons [2] ICEninja, havingfitz
Regfan [0]
ICEninja [0]
Garmr [0]
Squirrel Girl [0]
The Silver Bard [1] TvK
Wake88 [0]
Herself [1] The Silver Bard
havingfitz [3] Street Hassle, LolWagons, Regfan

Not Voting [2] - My Milked Eek, Wake88

It feels like we're grinding and going nowhere. There are a number of lesser wagons bouncing around and I feel like most of the people voting the big wagons (Eek and Fitz) are being clunky about moving. I am not intending to move because I think Fitz looks a bit townish. I think Reg is in the same boat wherein he doesn't find Eek scummy, hold on...no, I'm wrong, Reg has both as scum. I think Herself has Fitz and Eek as scum. Garmr has Fitz and Eek as scum. TvK has fitz and Eek as scum but is voting Bard for some reason. Street has Fitz and Eek as scum. Lolwagons has expressed I guess agreement that Eek is scummy, but not scummy enough to be worth a vote. In skimming over Wake's iso I actually have a really hard time guessing his reads on anyone. I guess he suspects Garmr...maybe? He needs to produce a lot more, and now I don't like anyone giving him a town read at this stage.

I guess what I am saying is most players in the game seem to think that *both* Fitz and Eek are scum, and yet we can't get a wagon going on either of them. That seems silly, let's put one to L-1. I personally would rather it be Eek than Fitz, but that's because I'm actually on the record for not thinking both are scum. I could also help out with a Kid A or TvK wagon at this stage. I might even be okay with lynching Lolwagon, I think I'd rather lynch him than Fitz, honestly. I'll also add in support for a Wake wagon now that I realize how empty all his posting is.

Really, I am strongly in favor of a large wagon being formed at this stage, we're 24 pages in, I think it's time for an L-1 with hammer intent so we can see a claim and talk about that, otherwise we're going to keep talking in circles till deadline.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Fitz - can you explain to me why you think Wake is town? I actually don't think Wake has really advanced a read yet, am I being nutty or are you?

[Garmr]

@Garmr wrt Post 573...it's a crap case but that's a matter of opinion (backed up by fact and knowledge).  The way I omgus?  First off...whenever I am town I take pushes towards me to be potentially scum driven.  I.e scum like to mislynch town so when I am town...those trying to mislynch me come across as scum.  And i will never vote anyone (other than perhaps in RVS) strictly for OMGUS.  Omgus just adds to any suspicions I might have had.  And why would I "go for Orestes" if I suspected someone else more and wanted more content from that slot before further developing an opinion?  That makes absolutely no sense.  And yes...flips are good.  Thanks for that pointer.  Also...you still haven't explained your case on me.

@TvK wrt Post 576...I do not think you are giving me a fair shake with your assessment of my reads or of me tunneling.  I have not focused solely on Herself.  Defending myself against a poor case is not tunnelling and is necessary as that poor case is 1) negatively influencing town and or 2) enabling scum an easy wagon to hop aboard.  Both of which fmpov is bad.  I can not ignore it. 

You might also note that whereas I am not voting Herself atm whereas you have been voting the same slot the entire game.  Ironic? 

But back to what I was saying....I'm by no means tunneling.  I just don't throw my vote around easily to get reactions.  I vote people I am interested in seeing get lynched. 



Back to the reads.  I've provide reads in Post 187, Post 394 and Post 566.  They have been fairly consistent though they have changed a bit with the increased activity levels from some of the early underposters.  I.e Wake and Eek.  What would be a lot more suspect would be if my reads did not evolve as the game progresses.

Sigh fitz. I agree with herself and there's not much else since herself has pretty much tore you apart post by post. that's why eek is my top vote and not you. It also seems all your scum reads are people who voted you and your leaning town reads (eek and reasons silver) are my scum reads and they haven't done anything to be warranted as town. It just doing the math 1+1=2. Also fitz herself has the most posts this game. So saying you throwing a vote for content from that player is rubbish and I doubt that player will get lynched today so it was a safe vote. You could of just interrogated him as well.

@SG
Scum are always the hardest to lynch since they have the power of 2-3 votes.

[ICEninja]

I'm just going to be honest here, I didn't get around to fully reading through Herself. We're shy of 5 days now, Herself has as many people town reading her as people scum reading her, and just looking at the cost-benefit analysis of digging in super deep to her for day 1 purposes, motivation isn't there. I would love to discuss her at length for day 2, but Herself simply isn't going to be lynched in the next 5 days with the number of town reads she has,

especially

if she's scum. Scum wagons are hard as shit to push on day 1, so the only way Herself is lynchable day 1 is if she's town so let's not.

I really do like a lot of Wagon's content so far, though I also know that Slaxx is a very good player who would do everything in his power to salvage a slot even as bad as TSO. However for some reason I've hardly got ANY support on this stupidly obvious scum slot.

I don't care what anyone says, this is one of the most fragmented and dysfunctional towns I've ever been a part of. With this long in to day 1, 24 pages, and

no significant dominant wagon

we're not pulling any crazy lynches today.

Honestly I feel like scum is ACTIVELY trying to stall out today using day talk to force a last second claim then pile on to a lynch town doesn't want and it will push through because town has to in order to avoid a no lynch.

After this post:

But go ahead and vote me:
What was scummy about TSO replacing out? He said he was in 11 ongoing games, which is easily checked, so lying wouldn't make any sense.
I also can't imagine that lolwagon hasn't updated your view on that slot.

I'm pretty happy to see a MME lynch at this point. "Go ahead and vote me" is almost always a scum gambit. No one wants them to vote them but only scum benefits from having the

impression

given that they don't care who votes for them. Also, if he's read virtually any of my posts at all he'd know why my vote has been so stubbornly on Wagons.

So yeah.

Unvote, Vote My Milked Eek

. I would like to get a claim and intent to lynch preferably before the end of tomorrow to prevent any last second wagon shuffling shenanigans from scum.

[Wake1]

Good afternoon everyone. Thanks for being patient. I'll have some more reads and shots going about soon, and please make sure to check the Spoiler that holds all of the answers to my shots.

Okay, first off, you DIDN'T ask me any questions. You can see your quote right there, and there aren't any questions in it. If you can come back and bold the question(s?) then I'll apologize to you for this. But It's awfully nutty of you to flail your arms around and act like I'm dodging something you never even asked. In fact, i challenge you to bold the question(s?) and if you can't I want you to apologize for the flailing.

I sheeped ICEninja because I wanted to make an early wagon and had a mild town read on ICE. I do not think sheeping of RVS votes fails to help town, otherwise I would not do it. I did the second sheep for the same reason I did the first sheep.

Are you going to address my question to you now that was phrased as an actual question from the start?

As I've said once before and will say again - please describe o me all parts of my actions that seemed to lack personal thinking and I will happily admit that I played wrong. Until then, I do not understand why people keep batting at this action and trying to sound like it's helpful or even meaningful. You spent a lot of time talking about it, and I'm not sure you said anything.

Also, clearly I need to play with this Sakura person, because she sounds nice and awesome and apparently we are clones.

Squirrel Girl, I want both of us to be crystal clear with one another, so that absolutely nothing is misunderstood between us. Within these two posts of yours is a question that you want answered. Because it's my goal to ensure accuracy and transparency, I'm going to ask you to point out exactly which question it is you are referring to. Basically, I'm trying to keep a pinpoint on what you say and do so that you can't otherwise misrepresent my words. Is this the question you're meaning to ask me?

1Q)

"Please describe to me all parts of my actions that seemed to lack personal thinking and I will happily admit that I played wrong."

1A) If that's the question, then I have some feedback for you. If I remember correctly we were discussing the tenets sheeping, and why you sheeped votes twice so early on. Sheeping, by definition, requires little to no thought. If Bob votes for Sandy because Bob legitimately finds something suspicious with Sandy, and you say you're just gonna sheep Bob without really adding much if any input of your own, that doesn't help Town because you're not providing your own insight and reasons for the actions you do. So, your whole action lacked thinking because you sheeped, while not providing much if any individual reasoning of your own.

2Q) "I do not understand why people keep batting at this action and trying to sound like it's helpful or even meaningful."

2A) If this is the one, it's worded in a way that doesn't really make much sense. You're asking why people keep batting at your action while they're trying to sound like it's helpful or meaningful. The way its structured it could be understood in more than one way. From what I've seen no one here who has batted at your sheeping has tried to make it sound like your sheeping has been helpful or meaningful. That's because it isn't. Those who have questioned you on it

don't

think your sheeping is particularly helpful, but they

do

question the meaning behind it.

If anything's been misunderstood or missed on my part please make it known and I'll respond to it from there. If You were meaning one or both of those questions, please then provide me your rebuttal/insights to them. Thank you.

[havingfitz]

@Garmr wrt Post 573...it's a crap case but that's a matter of opinion (backed up by fact and knowledge).  The way I omgus?  First off...whenever I am town I take pushes towards me to be potentially scum driven.  I.e scum like to mislynch town so when I am town...those trying to mislynch me come across as scum.  And i will never vote anyone (other than perhaps in RVS) strictly for OMGUS.  Omgus just adds to any suspicions I might have had.  And why would I "go for Orestes" if I suspected someone else more and wanted more content from that slot before further developing an opinion?  That makes absolutely no sense.  And yes...flips are good.  Thanks for that pointer.  Also...you still haven't explained your case on me.

Sigh fitz. I agree with herself and there's not much else since herself has pretty much tore you apart post by post.  that's why eek is my top vote and not you.

Don’t give me that “sigh fitz”crap.  That’s just avoiding the question.  Why do you suspect me?  Even if it’s just parroting herself I’d like to see the reasons you are using.  And Herself hasn’t torn anything apart...if they had I would think I’d have been lynched by now.  And HTF does your opinion that Herself has “torn me apart” = Eek being your top vote???  Also…didn’t you recently express some reservations about herself?  If by some miracle Herself was town I could very well see this being scum trying to slide on to a mislynch.
 

It also seems all your scum reads are people who voted you

No…you and LoL are among my top three suspicions and neither of you were voting me when I indicated my suspicions towards you.  Lol has voted me after I had voted his slot and you have yet to vote me.  And Street and Regfan are fairly low on my list of suspicions…despite actually voting me.  :idea:
 

and your leaning town reads (eek and  reasons silver) are my scum reads and they haven't done anything to be warranted as town.

What have they done that is scummy?  I’ve liked their recent posts. 
 

Also fitz herself has the most posts this game. So saying you throwing a vote for content from that player is rubbish and I doubt that player will get lynched today so it was a safe vote. You could of just interrogated him as well.

Read closer….I wasn’t saying anything about Herself’s amount of content.  I was referring to Orestes’.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Wake - You did answer the correct question via 1A. That said, I don't think you actually answered it. I hear you talking about a theoretical lack of expressed thoughts. I don't see you actually managing to show how MY actions lacked individual thought or how it was bad, which is what you were on about. You talk a lot, but you don't actually answer the real question, you answer a different question.

[Wake1]

At this moment I'm trying to gather as much information as I can. Sans that, proper reads can't really come into existence.

Herself (Mollie), hi.

I've got a question for you please. In 495 I asked you guys a few questions. Desperado answered the questions directed towards him and... would you please answer sthose directed towards you too, please? That'd really help. Here they are:

———✹

What's your current read on Regfan?

———✹

Mollie, why do you think Garmr(?) is reaching in your post (392)?

———✹

What's your current read on Kid A?

———✹

To both of you: What's your current Towniest and Scummiest reads?

———✹

Please share your reaction to the Quadraxis/Wake outbreak.

Also, here's the updated Spoiler Tag with over 30 questions in it, organized by player name and shot #(11/18/13):

Spoiler:

Kid A

001)———✹

Why'd you vote for Orestes for fluffposting when at that time you barely contributed at all?

"...in what way are these two statements linked, orestes was posting a lot but not actually saying anything (e.g. in an early post he basically says "tvk that was kind of noncommittal - not that i mind people being noncommital", what a fucking great observation)..."

002)———✹

Explain how Orestes is scummy for implying two people were suspicious, then voting someone else.

"...why would anyone with a town win condition identify two possible scum and then not use their vote to help kill these possible scum, i can understand voting the early wagon if you have nothing else to go on but Orestes had two better people to vote and still chose the safe vote that draws no attention to him..."

003)———✹

What's your read on Banksys Flareon's slot?

"...he made a weird post and then disappeared i do not know what to make of him..."

004)———✹

Elaborate on your reasoning for voting for Street Hassle.

"...see above. to clarify "see above" means the post i made earlier this page, not the above line about banksy..."

005)———✹

Who else is trying to "sound Town"?

"...i dont think anyone else is trying hard to get townread, i guess squirrel girl is trying pretty hard to be a funposter but thats probably more to do with character than allignment indicative. ICEninja towntells a lot but i think hes being genuine..."

ICEninja

001)———✹

What's your current read on Squirrel Girl?

"...I've stated my read on her several times. I'm really getting tired of you asking questions that I've clearly (and sometimes repeatedly) stated in the game. It hasn't changed much since the last time I stated that I am fully unwilling to see Nusty McSexytail lynched today...."

002)———✹

Your promised read of Herself today would be awesome.

"...I'll be hopefully taking care of that in the next hour or so. I need to catch up first...."

003)———✹

With TSO gone, are you going to continue pursuing his replacement (LolWagons) today?

"...READ MY FUCKING POSTS...."

004)———✹

Why do you plan so far in advance, like saying you'll for sure vote "X" or "Y" Day 2?

"...This actually is a good question. I mostly do that to remind myself of connections. I'll often make statements such as "I'll remember this connection when x player flips as it will have y impact on z player" so when I go back and re-read the game later I'll find that. Most of my preferred lynched past day 1 are weighed largely by interactions and vote counts, and sometimes I get things in one read-through that I miss in future ones, and some things I get in future read-throughs that I missed the first time around. It's extra tricky to do this with day talk, however, so these statements will probably hold slightly less weight than they do in most of my games...."

005)———✹

How exactly did Kid A increase on your Scum list significantly?

"...He was lurking heavily, someone asked where he was, and he replied with one word less than 10 minutes after said statement. Kid A is clearly reading the thread and actively lurking. This is super scummy considering how strong of scum hunters we have this game...."

006)———✹

Why do you think having a supposed Vig killing lurkers is a good thing for Town?

"...In your average game, I would tend to hold my shot as a vig for night 1 simply due to lack of information. However, this game has such a strong core of clearly town players that sifting out some of the unknowns could (as I believe I worded it) speed this game along to easy-mode cleanup..."

Herself

001)———✹

What's your current read on Regfan?

"...Desperado: Town..."

"...Mollie: ..."

002)———✹

Des, in your own words, what exactly did Fitz do in his first two votes that was so scummy?

"...Asked if there were any hydras in this game while quoting a hydra slip; invited SG to talk about her obviously negative reaction when she found out Herself was Mollie and I. Fluff + Instigation = scum..."

003)———✹

Mollie, why do you think Garmr(?) is reaching in your post (392)?

004)———✹

What's your current read on Kid A?

"...Desperado: Town..."

"...Mollie: ..."

005)———✹

To both of you: What's your current Towniest and Scummiest reads?

"...Desperado: Towniest - Street, Garmr, SG, Ice...Scummiest - Fitz, Bard, Milked..."

"...Mollie: ..."

006)———✹

Please share your reaction to the Quadraxis/Wake outbreak.

"...Desperado: I thought it was awesome and I wish you hadn't alt-slipped because I was enjoying the gimmick..."

"...Mollie: ..."

Squirrel Girl

001)———✹

Who are your top Scumreads?

"...I'm not really sure or I'd probably be more forceful about who I want to lynch. I guess I would call it TvK and Kid A at this stage. Eek is a solid third...."

002)———✹

Please explain why you felt like Kid A and TvK were trying to compete for votes.

"...Because both of them are under heat and both are posting what amounts to prod dodge posts wherein they say nothing. That one did it right after the other and I felt the action was scummy, I felt they were competing to see who could look scummiest and thus earn the most votes...."

003)———✹

What's your current read on The Silver Bard?

"...Towny...."

004)———✹

Why did you vote for My Milked Eek when he wasn't around to react?

"...I voted Milked twice. The first time to wagon him, the second time because I thought we could get a bigger wagon...."

005)———✹

Does Street Hassle still look bad in your opinion?

"...Yes...."

006)———✹

You've voted and unvoted in individual posts eight times. Is this part of your strategy?

"...I'm not sure what you mean by 'individual posts' because, by definition, votes happen in individual posts. I would say, yes, my votes are part of my strategy. I hope that is the same for everyone. When you respond to this answer can you also explain the point of this question, it seems kinda silly...."

007)———✹

What's your current read on TvK?

"...Scummy...."

008)———✹

Why are Fitz and Kid A no longer within your Town read core?

"...I don't understand this question and think it's because you don't follow my reads or are misunderstanding something I said. I had Fitz as scummy and have recently called him more townish. I have never indicated a towny vibe of any sort on Kid A that I can remember, so though, yes, I do not tink he's town I don't think that's a change in my stance...."

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

bump for vc