[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Junpei]

Um I have an experimental setup that I'd like to run as Open, who do I talk to?

[callforjudgement]

You post it in Open Setup Discussion, if it hasn't been posted there yet. Then you post it in this thread, and if nobody complains for a while, you take it into the queue. (In order to do this, you need enough modding experience to run a Theme, but in your case that shouldn't be a problem.)

[Junpei]

how long should I wait for no one to complain?

[callforjudgement]

I guess it's up to the listmod. (In the past, it's been a week or so. Maybe two.)

[pieceofpecanpie]

Howdy there, I have a new open set up I'd like to give a crack.

I created a wiki page to make it easier to review, http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ttle_Mafia.

[Hoopla]

In a 14 player game, it's necessary for the town to no-lynch at least once (unless scum decide to no-kill, which they shouldn't if the town is in even numbers, as it gives the town an extra mislynch), and if I were town, I'd be suggesting no-lynching D1 to get more information for more of the game and while all the PR's are alive. If people believe D1 is the best time to no-lynch, then that could be a silly way for the game to begin. Why not have 13 players and just force a lynch and nightkill rather than introducing no-lynching/no-killing strategies? It just seems inelegant for no real benefit.

On gut, the setup seems relatively balanced, but also somewhat luck-based. There's always an element of luck involved when you introduce PR's into a setup -- a lot depends on who gets the roles, how they use them, and if they can manage to evade the NK. In this setup, there is an additional layer of luck where the PR's don't even know if they are one and can't tailor their play to improve chances of survival or claim to escape a lynch. It's just like, well, if we mislynch (which will happen sometimes) I hope it isn't a PR! It is an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd personally play in it.

[pieceofpecanpie]

But it's nightstart, so why would NL Day 1 be the best town strat? Unless you want to give scum two bites of the rolecop apple.

[Hoopla]

Oh, I didn't see the nightstart. That makes more sense, although I still echo my luck-based sentiments. There is a big difference between entering D1 with a Cop guilty on scum (or even an innocent because it forces scum's next kill) and a Fruit Vendor death. And it's not really based on anything.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Look I appreciate your feedback, but please at least think more deeply about the tactics and set up before making comments based on assertions that are contrary to the intended style of the gameplay.

Firstly, it wouldn't be in scums interests to NK Night 0 at all, unless they really do want to go full luck-based (btw, mafia has luck in every game, so if you're going to apply a shooting in the dark strat to this game I hope you also recommend such a strat for each and every game out there...). Night 0 is to utilise the rolecop. Scums tactic is to clear a minefield, so to speak, as they are forced to make careful decisions about who they kill, based not only on a players strength, but also a players role.

Secondly, I have tried hard to think of an interesting way to create a simple tweak that changes some elements of gameplay. Namely in this game each and every townie is equal until proven otherwise. That's not supposed to be a hindrance, that puts the power in the hands of the player rather than their role (or the loss of a role). Also, in every other game out there you can more or less be instantly relegated to the sidelines after a Night. Here there is the potential to be able to strike back at your killers, or give town a crucial piece of information.

There is swing here, there are worst-case scenarios for sure, but with daychat for scum and a level playing field for town role-wise (since they don't know their roles they can't hide behind them) I'm hoping this game is a lot more about the strengths of the players and the way they manipulate or interpret events rather than an event number generator.

I'm happy to share the QT between AV and myself if it would help on the background of the setup or alleviate concerns you have.

[Hoopla]

What assertions am I making that are contrary to the intended style of gameplay? It is going to be more luck-based than a regular game of mafia (at least for town). In a normal game of mafia, a Cop can claim before being mislynched, or play in a way to attempt to maximise their survival, and conversely VT's can play in a way to attract the NK more. When you remove knowledge of one's role, of course it will be more luck-based. You get a handful of mislynches each game -- the game is going to swing wildly based on whether or not those mislynches were PR's or not, and in this game you have no way of discerning that as town. Don't know why the luck thing is up for dispute?

I'll grant you interesting gameplay decisions for scum -- but I don't see how there's any interesting gameplay for a townie, other than "maybe I'm a PR and will get to do something", but that doesn't really guide or influence one's play at all.

[pieceofpecanpie]

There's luck in every single game of mafia. Are you telling me you can't think up tactics or strategy that town can employ in this set up? In a normal game a cop can die without even being able to claim, just like a cop can get lynched. Towns main source of power in all games relies on a degree of cooperation and luck. Here they could employ promises to lynch someone if another person flips town/gets NK'd and see what results they get. Scum are going to get caught in a lie or having to bus each other at some point. If a townie's mentality is "Oh I'll just wait till I get NK'd before I start playing this game", then I wouldn't recommend they join. There's nothing to stop them from analysing wagons, votes etc. etc. In fact, just good deductive skills and a keen eye for inconsistencies are more key here than ever. It's not just dumb luck. It's about "Why did those two players push for that mislynch? Me thinks a rolecop was at work, let's push for their lynch tomorrow...".

It's not so much that you haven't raised some valid concerns about town gameplay. I'm curious to see if it'll work or not, the mechanic is new so I couldn't tell you. My two key aims are simply to provide a game that's balanced and fun, and I've spent a lot of time trying to come up with something that fulfills those aims. I'm also a bit ticked off that you adopt a rather dismissive and disparaging tone even though you didn't even read the basic mechanics. First off the bat, right there, "night start". How am I to reason that you're actually giving something like this a chance when you can decide it's questionable without even having questioned it properly?

I mean I'm here to answer your questions and see what thoughts come out. Couldn't you perhaps voice concerns better by starting off saying things like "So how do you think town gameplay will work out with this set up, because I..."? Rather than just a "looks like dumb luck, looks boring, would not join".

[T-Bone]

The one thing I do like Pecan, is that 'every single townie is equal'. I don't like that once a townie is killed they get to use their role and the results are publicly revealed. Now you're punishing the mafia for using their night kill, which I don't think you should do in any set-up. Also, you have a Mafia Roleblocker....who seems to be useless as townies can only use their role upon death.

[Hoopla]

I don't think I'm being dismissive -- your game looks relatively balanced. I'm merely sharing with you that the thing that holds me back is that the setup is essentially strategically akin (for town anyway) to a mountainous game with an occasional innocent or guilty upon the dawn of a new day. I'm not saying there isn't luck in mafia. Every mafia game has luck. This has a little bit more.

Why are you upset at my tone? I'm not upset at you.

[Antihero]

I think the mechanic would be good for people who are killed off early just because of their reputation because, as pecanpie said, scum have to take role into consideration when making the kill.

I especially like the combination of scum power roles. It forces scum to really think about who should do the kill (that is, given that PRs can't do the kill AND their PR at the same time; is this correct, pecanpie?)

I think the town strategy would really come in with the "vengeful" PRs; otherwise, yeah, Hoopla's right that town strategy doesn't really change from a normal game. Personally, that doesn't bother me, and I would sign up for this game if the setup were run.

[Zachrulez]

Is there a reason the game starts with an even number with a night start? Would it not work as a 13 or 15p game with a daystart? I really dislike night starts, you're basically asking someone to sign up who is going to end up not playing.

Also in regards to the bloodlust mechanic, it seems a lot simpler to me to just force the town to lynch and the scum to kill. As it stands the game can sit completely inert for 2 days and night phases. I don't see that being fun for anyone. At the very least the punishment factor should come into play immediately after no lynching or killing.

[pieceofpecanpie]

The one thing I do like Pecan, is that 'every single townie is equal'. I don't like that once a townie is killed they get to use their role and the results are publicly revealed. Now you're punishing the mafia for using their night kill, which I don't think you should do in any set-up. Also, you have a Mafia Roleblocker....who seems to be useless as townies can only use their role upon death.

The roleblocker plays a key role, it allows mafia to rolecop a PR and negate their effects with a sneaky NK. Especially if they are unable to force a mislynch on the player.

eg. Night 3 - rolecop finds cop
Night 4 - roleblocker blocks cop, goon kills cop, once kill resolves the cops investigation will fail

It's an unusual scenario as it requires mafia to be aware of the role they are killing, but that's the point in this game. Their NK's aren't solely about getting rid of the strongest townie.

I don't think I'm being dismissive -- your game looks relatively balanced. I'm merely sharing with you that the thing that holds me back is that the setup is essentially strategically akin (for town anyway) to a mountainous game with an occasional innocent or guilty upon the dawn of a new day. I'm not saying there isn't luck in mafia. Every mafia game has luck. This has a little bit more.

Why are you upset at my tone? I'm not upset at you.

I've put a lot of thought into this game, so I suppose I was a bit taken back by the response. I'm wondering, given what you've said, if you can think of any changes or improvements that could be made to give town a more positive experience? Unfortunately even if I included something like a town rolecop - which was considered at one stage - they'd still be just as limited by functionality as the other town roles. I think seeing roles like cop, tracker, gunsmith with this mechanic are actually false positives. It's more like there's 11 VT's.

However, having said that, when I've run events at random this game is notoriously difficult for scum. It's been hard to consider balance when the games outcome actually relies heavily on who scum chooses to kill and when. For the most part they'd want to NK Fruit Vendors and have the PRs get mislynched, but that stops working eventually.

I especially like the combination of scum power roles. It forces scum to really think about who should do the kill (that is, given that PRs can't do the kill AND their PR at the same time; is this correct, pecanpie?)

Yes, only the rolecop can investigate and kill if they're the last scum left alive. At some stage scum will be forced to lose the immunity on the goon if they want to get rid of a PR and rolecop someone. ie. rolecop investigates a player, roleblocker blocks PR, goon NK's same PR

Is there a reason the game starts with an even number with a night start? Would it not work as a 13 or 15p game with a daystart? I really dislike night starts, you're basically asking someone to sign up who is going to end up not playing.

Also in regards to the bloodlust mechanic, it seems a lot simpler to me to just force the town to lynch and the scum to kill. As it stands the game can sit completely inert for 2 days and night phases. I don't see that being fun for anyone. At the very least the punishment factor should come into play immediately after no lynching or killing.

The reason for the nightstart is so scum can use the rolecop on someone. I wouldn't consider them killing someone a solid tactic, as they'd be shooting in the dark and potentially give town a huge advantage.

I like what you said about the bloodlust mechanic a lot. Making lynches and NK's mandatory does sound like a good idea.

[T-Bone]

How would the tracker work exactly? If it happens after the kill, how is the tracker supposed to track it? It's weird to have him retroactively track his kill. The only people doing night actions are the scum.

[LlamaFluff]

I agree heavily with Hoopla here.

It looks more or less fair, but it also looks like there is going to be a lot of luck involved. Even if you are going to say scum have the role cop, just getting the "wrong" mislynch D1 could really hurt scum. Its one of those that I just think you are going to have games swing hard each way.

Maybe game one scum manage to get lucky and NK all the vendors. Then game two scum get unlucky and hit all of the PRs. Its an interesting idea but I see this as a game that is going to be frustratingly swingy to play because unlike situations where you can argue scum didn't read PRs right so lost, in this one there is nothing to read - just a matter of who you kill.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, well that seems like a bit of a bugger.

I don't want people playing a game where there's a contention that winning or losing is based heavily on luck.

I think the mechanic is a refreshing way to change up how scum are expected to perform NK's and also changes the way town approach the game. I like the inherent risk with NK's, it means scum need to work more for them, I also like town having to rely on their strengths as players, rather than any expectation of abilities that they may or may not have.

However, with this concern over it's current form I'm losing confidence at running it. If it's not fun then it's not worth it.

(@T-Bone Yeah, it is weird, but the idea is that a tracker can retroactively track their killer, or the rolecop.)

[T-Bone]

It's not unplayable, but changes might need to be made.

[Antihero]

I agree heavily with Hoopla here.

It looks more or less fair, but it also looks like there is going to be a lot of luck involved. Even if you are going to say scum have the role cop, just getting the "wrong" mislynch D1 could really hurt scum. Its one of those that I just think you are going to have games swing hard each way.

Maybe game one scum manage to get lucky and NK all the vendors. Then game two scum get unlucky and hit all of the PRs. Its an interesting idea but I see this as a game that is going to be frustratingly swingy to play because unlike situations where you can argue scum didn't read PRs right so lost, in this one there is nothing to read - just a matter of who you kill.

It may be somewhat luck based, but scum do have good counters with the roleblocker, the godfather, AND the public knowledge that there's a godfather.

[Hoopla]

The one aspect I think is really interesting is the wifom potential for scum to leave an innocent alive if the godfather is still around. I don't know what I'd do as town if we got an innocent d3 and then on d5 or d6 that player was still alive,

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The roleblocker plays a key role, it allows mafia to rolecop a PR and negate their effects with a sneaky NK. Especially if they are unable to force a mislynch on the player.

eg. Night 3 - rolecop finds cop
Night 4 - roleblocker blocks cop, goon kills cop, once kill resolves the cops investigation will fail

It's an unusual scenario as it requires mafia to be aware of the role they are killing, but that's the point in this game. Their NK's aren't solely about getting rid of the strongest townie.

I think you're making the classic mistake of giving the scum a counter to everything the town has here. And the best thing about the set-up is definitely that scum have more difficult decisions to make with their nightkills, so why detract from that by letting the scum ignore it once?

On top of that, town doesn't really have that much power as is? ~2.5 public investigations? I'd drop the 1-shot roleblocker and the investigation-immune goon, go down to 13p and make the rolecop a day action.

[Zachrulez]

Hmmm, well that seems like a bit of a bugger.

I don't want people playing a game where there's a contention that winning or losing is based heavily on luck.

I think the mechanic is a refreshing way to change up how scum are expected to perform NK's and also changes the way town approach the game. I like the inherent risk with NK's, it means scum need to work more for them, I also like town having to rely on their strengths as players, rather than any expectation of abilities that they may or may not have.

However, with this concern over it's current form I'm losing confidence at running it. If it's not fun then it's not worth it.

(@T-Bone Yeah, it is weird, but the idea is that a tracker can retroactively track their killer, or the rolecop.)

Well it is an open setup so you can't really say that anyone that agrees to play the setup doesn't know what they're getting into.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Cogito

Fair points, so what you're suggesting is a day rolecop and 2 goons?

Scum weren't entirely in the clear with the current set-up, the rolecop was there so they could identify a PR and choose to "defuse" them in a NK (almost minesweeper style), but to do that with the roleblocker and use the rolecop in the same night they'd have to use the inv-imm goon for the kill and thus sacrifice his immunity. So I don't feel like I gave scum counters to everything, just some outs. I feel like they needed at least one out if the rolecopping was hitting only PRs and those PRs weren't getting mislynched.

However, if I were to scrap all that would it be fair to force scum to NK every night?

@Zachrulez

Very true, but I do want everyone to get into an enjoyable game. From some of the concerns raised I'm uncertain about that prospect from the town side.