NY 167: COMPLETELY NORMAL Mafia (GAME OVER)


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Post Post #1975 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1935, sangres wrote: How do you determine whether you're playing follow the cop with a scum "cop"? Your scenarios were all predicated on counter-claims.
I have a pretty good theory of what happens if orcinus-scum, minus the more obvious thought of mine that this is town orcinus getting railroaded from all sides.
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Post Post #1976 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:07 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1940, Cephrir wrote:Surely you must realize that's pretty much a list of who is and who is not sheeping you
CEPH, I'VE NEVER LOVED YOU MORE IN MY LIFE

SORRY FOR SUSPECTING YOU EARLIER
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Post Post #1977 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:08 pm

Post by sangres »

In post 1930, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1928, sangres wrote:
UNVOTE


We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.
You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.
I keep coming back to this post because I feel like I'm missing something. What does your fake cop inno gambit in that game have to do with this one?
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Post Post #1978 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:09 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

I swear to arceus this "lynch the claimed cop" vs. "let scum nightkills sort it the fuck out" debate parallels my RQS about leashing a SK. But several players flipped their answers... Which is interesting. Let me go grab the responses.
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Post Post #1979 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1977, sangres wrote:
In post 1930, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1928, sangres wrote:
UNVOTE


We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.
You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.
I keep coming back to this post because I feel like I'm missing something. What does your fake cop inno gambit in that game have to do with this one?
It was merely an indicator of my townread on you being less strong than it was at its peak in this game.
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Post Post #1980 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:10 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1976, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1940, Cephrir wrote:Surely you must realize that's pretty much a list of who is and who is not sheeping you
CEPH, I'VE NEVER LOVED YOU MORE IN MY LIFE

SORRY FOR SUSPECTING YOU EARLIER
Oh hai mara.
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Post Post #1981 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:11 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

So, I'm back...

and catching up, but I still don't really understand why we are lynching a claimed cop without a counter-claim. Yeah, Orci could be scum but he could be the real cop and can clear players. If Orci does, so happen end up being scum, it isn't beneficial for him to clear members because it'll paint a target on them should they survive for more than a few days after his death
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Post Post #1982 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:17 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 57, MVP wrote:
In post 43, MC Maraca wrote:Lynch or leash?
RQS!!! U MUSTZ BE SCUM

It depends. But I think SK should be leashed most of the time. (The exception being the situation where it is pointless to leave SK alive, e.g. almost-town-autowin)

-L. J.
In post 58, Wake1 wrote:Just to clarify, if we ever come across a debacle whether to lynch or leash claimed SK, I'll be vehemently in favor of breaking its neck.
In post 61, Toomai wrote:
In post 43, MC Maraca wrote:Actually, good question for everyone. SK is found day one. Lynch or leash? Give reasoning, there will be a grading rubric.
I don't see the point in trying to control a third party who has essentially already lost all hope of winning. There's no reason for them to follow along.
In post 64, Doctor Jekyll wrote:
In post 61, Toomai wrote:
In post 43, MC Maraca wrote:Actually, good question for everyone. SK is found day one. Lynch or leash? Give reasoning, there will be a grading rubric.
I don't see the point in trying to control a third party who has essentially already lost all hope of winning. There's no reason for them to follow along.
We think leash in the short run, and kill immediately upon deviation. We also feel like it's probably a moot point.
In post 65, JacobSavage wrote:
In post 48, Sakura Hana wrote: Hermy's known for self-voting IN LYLO as town.
What was the reasoning behind this? I've seen respectable players do it because they know the game is winnable if they do so.

In post 61, Toomai wrote:I don't see the point in trying to control a third party who has essentially already lost all hope of winning. There's no reason for them to follow along.
Honor, most third parties would rather see town win the mafia win plus there is always the chance that the town massively cock ups and they can win.



@GM: Can you PM everyone with a day start PM?


Fiiiine.
In post 69, RadiantCowbells wrote:Depends if you can make scum waste a bullet on it.
In post 164, sangres wrote:
In post 147, RadiantCowbells wrote:Just to clarify, I've been leashed when I was investigated as guilty, but single handedly got a scum lynched so everyone assumed I was SK but was actually third party Arsonist, and everyone kept telling me to NK or they'd lynch me, so I ended up just dousing and igniting day 5 for a win.

It makes me very leery of leashing people.
It sounds like the problem was that you got to day 5 without delivering a night kill. That's poor town management of a leashed claimed SK.
^ responses to the "leash or lynch SK" question
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Post Post #1983 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:18 pm

Post by sangres »

In post 1979, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1977, sangres wrote:
In post 1930, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1928, sangres wrote:
UNVOTE


We've got more to post.

Don't fucking hammer before we're finish.
You. You of all people should fucking get why leashing is ideal regardless of orcinus's alignment. The fact that you don't is making my prior town as fuck read cry. This isn't the same ffery I faked a cop innocent on in paradox.
I keep coming back to this post because I feel like I'm missing something. What does your fake cop inno gambit in that game have to do with this one?
It was merely an indicator of my townread on you being less strong than it was at its peak in this game.
Ok. Though I never really understood how your read could have been that strong given your protestations about how hard I am to read in other games.

Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.
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Post Post #1984 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:19 pm

Post by goodmorning »

even fewer words

Votecount 1.65

orcinus_theoriginal [L-2] - likeabauss, Hermy, RadiantCowbells, MVP, yessiree, Guyett, Sakura Hana


Sakura Hana [L-5] - MC Maraca, orcinus_theoriginal, Cephrir, PeregrineV

Guyett [L-8] - caledfwitch

caledfwitch [L-8] - Angry Frat BROs

likeabauss [L-8] - JacobSavage

Not Voting [3] - TheIrishPope, sangres, Toomai

With 17 alive, it takes
9
to lynch. The day will end in (expired on 2013-11-21 09:39:00)
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Post Post #1985 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:22 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1983, sangres wrote:Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.
Giving him multiple days means he at most clears like one buddy, which will be evident when said town clears don't start popping up dead. I think somebody else said this already, let me see if I can find it.
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Post Post #1986 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:27 pm

Post by sangres »

In post 1978, MC Maraca wrote:I swear to arceus this "lynch the claimed cop" vs. "let scum nightkills sort it the fuck out" debate parallels my RQS about leashing a SK. But several players flipped their answers... Which is interesting. Let me go grab the responses.
The point of leashing an SK is that they have a confirmable killing people power that sorts people out with 100% reliability, and the night actions used during the night aren't completely useless when they flip anti-town. The cop question is something else entirely.
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Post Post #1987 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:27 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1986, sangres wrote:
In post 1978, MC Maraca wrote:I swear to arceus this "lynch the claimed cop" vs. "let scum nightkills sort it the fuck out" debate parallels my RQS about leashing a SK. But several players flipped their answers... Which is interesting. Let me go grab the responses.
The point of leashing an SK is that they have a confirmable killing people power that sorts people out with 100% reliability, and the night actions used during the night aren't completely useless when they flip anti-town. The cop question is something else entirely.
Please refer to 1975, TIA.
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Post Post #1988 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:28 pm

Post by sangres »

In post 1985, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1983, sangres wrote:Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.
Giving him multiple days means he at most clears like one buddy, which will be evident when said town clears don't start popping up dead. I think somebody else said this already, let me see if I can find it.
How many game days does town have to fuck around?
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Post Post #1989 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:30 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1988, sangres wrote:
In post 1985, MC Maraca wrote:
In post 1983, sangres wrote:Assume that I'm right and he's scum. How does leaving him alive work out as a net positive? I'm really not seeing it.
Giving him multiple days means he at most clears like one buddy, which will be evident when said town clears don't start popping up dead. I think somebody else said this already, let me see if I can find it.
How many game days does town have to fuck around?
I'll make up my mind tonight, and if we're lynching him, we can lynch him tomorrow.
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Post Post #1990 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:30 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

I'll be pretty sure of his legitamacy or not then.
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Post Post #1991 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:58 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

In post 1662, yessiree wrote:
In post 1659, MC Maraca wrote:I'm done with this game.

someone call me when town is ready to start working together, because it obviously isn't going to happen today no matter how hard I try and make that happen
try harder

also, why are you passing off the possibility that scums are muddying the waters, but going straight to pure internal conflicts
because, at this point, the one I'm most fustrated with was Bauss and He's been town as fuck. there is nothing in this game hat reminds me of how he played when he was my buddy, AND he has the righteous-town attitude even if he isn't listening to anyone else and is calling everyone who argues with him scum

Bauss: BP can, and usually is, scum (IME) and, as a safe-claim is more likely than a cop claim anyway. also, as a PR you want to stop your lynch from going through, claiming Vanilla or BP isn't going to make that happen.
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Post Post #1992 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:00 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

Sweet, fucking jesus

AFB has gotten even TOWNIER since I have left. like, holy crap
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Post Post #1993 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:07 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

HEY BAUSS

link me to where you've explained you're read on us and Ceph because, I can't find either
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Post Post #1994 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:11 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

LIKE, I ISO'D YOU AND I STILL CAN'T FIND IT

BUT OMGGG

I saw a post, where you were griping on how everyone just suddenly accepted my read on TIP

BUT THAT'S BECAUSE I BACK UP MY REASONS

AND, I HAVE HAD GAMES WHERE I HAVE HAD TO FIGHT FOR HIM ANYWAY

so, you aren't alone in that "why won't anyone listen to me when I'm right" department
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Post Post #1995 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:16 pm

Post by Sakura Hana »

In post 1974, MC Maraca wrote:Town-Sakura is many things. This dumb, she is not.

And that little ATE about lynching her is one of the worst emulations of her town ATE I've seen in a long time.
I could care less what you think about me, I was and still am stressed because my boss is an a-hole, well then sorry for having a life, that's like the worst reason ever to flip a read on someone that i'm thinking you might be scum after all.

On a more interesting note: Why would me being dumber than usual, make me more likely to be scum than town?
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Post Post #1996 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:21 pm

Post by MC Maraca »

and, you still havn't told me about all those things I was wondering about earlier.

still havn't taken into consideration that, I am town-reading BRO's and that I have said that I was willing to move our vote on Orci (though I needed to talk about him with Cabd first) and it should be pretty damn clear on why that is no longer an option

and there is the little thing where, you say I'm not showing you my love this game but, I am. I'm also just really, really fustrated with you, and I said I loved you in our scum game not because you bussed me, but how you handled the game after I died. it had nothing to do with our relationship

AND ON THE SUBJECT OF MY SCUM GAME, you already know that I don't ignore buddies and I do bus when it is optimal to do so (which would have been now if Orci and I were buddies) and you know that I'm not scared to do so. You know that I'm not scared to attack people who have a fair amount of experience with me and that I would treat everyone just about the same. I don't have a tendency to hard-defend, unless I have a good reason to but you aren't taking any of those into consideration, why?

Pedit: uummmm... IDK, I'm talking to him about it but, if it matters I still you think have a good chance of being town
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Post Post #1997 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:24 pm

Post by Sakura Hana »

In post 1996, MC Maraca wrote:uummmm... IDK, I'm talking to him about it but, if it matters I still you think have a good chance of being town
Well damn right, because I consider that statement an insult to my scumgame. Specially considering that I consider my scumgame stronger than my towngame.
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Post Post #1998 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:27 pm

Post by sangres »

Town


likeabauss - mostly because of the conviction of his meta read. If he's scum and Rank/orcinus is town, then he's engineered this mislynch, not just backed it, and he'll have no credibility at all ever in an emphatic meta-based read of Rank among this player list and among any player who metas this game. I can't see him pushing a mislynch in this particular manner. I just can't. And if Orcinus is scum, I can't see him going for such an early bus based purely on meta to start with.

Cephrir - Ceph is one of those paradoxical players who look more town as scum than they do as town. In ffery's first game with him (amnesiac), she spent most of her time in the game thinking he was scum because his stances looked hedgy, his reads looked bad, and some of the stuff he said just reeked with scummitude. The nail in the coffin was his berating the hypothetical doc about not protecting "obvtown" her on night 1 when she turned up dead on day 2. When he's scum, he looks more decisive and his reads look more thought out and sensible. The one small niggle is that ceph knows what we look for in his town and scum games and he has tried (with some success) to modify those behaviors when we're in the player list. But, we've found that he winds up looking a little stilted as a result.

Hermy - newbsorter says this is self-righteous newbtown. This read is so strong that it's all but sort and never look back.

Less Town


Sakura - A lot of things are being kept underneath the surface, even for a new playstyle. But we think that the confrontations that she has gotten herself into have been indications of Sakura town; for the majority of them (read: orc) there have been easy outs, easy ways to back away. But she hasn't taken any of them. #988 "I've done all I can to be town in this thread" also rang very strongly townie to us, although there are a few niggles with regards to the iceberg beneath the surface.

MVP - His trajectory on orcinus is a little off. His early read seemed to be purely based on Bauss' meta read. When we asked him why he was scumreading orcinus a few pages ago he said it was based on orcinus post-claim play and didn't mention reasons for suspecting orcinus prior to the claim.

Angry Frat BROs - weak read, mostly based on his emotional reactions to Bauss and to his wagon.

Guyett - His reaction to his wagon looks decently town. This read is growing stale because lurking.

MC Maraca - Didn't like the yessiree meta case that was never really put out there for the cat to sniff. Also don't like the Sakura vote. But, his outrage over what he sees as a failure to follow solid mafia theory looks town. So does his calling out ffery for being hypocritical about paradox prime, though ffery totally fails to see any parallels in the situations.

TiP - Probably will be able to leave this read to MC Maraca, but not sure. We found him latching onto a lurking easy target as "confirmed town" to be shutting down options for no clear reason from a scumTiP perspective, although his early reachout to Bauss/Rank was sort of strange (we rarely see him do that kind of thing, if ever). TiP pushing for a utility lynch is in and of itself an incredibly strange thing and he dodged MVP's question of why he would push something like that and ended up dropping it very quickly. His excitement at seeing orc claimed seemed very genuine. "If I'm alive tomorrow, I have shit to say" (who would NK TiP) is strange. Would lean scum if not for endorsement.

yessiree - His arguments for the orcinus wagon look town, though his earlier play was meh. He may move to top tier town depending on orcinus' flip.

Toomai - content looks pretty town. Putting caled at L-1 is a flag if she's town and orcinus is scum. Read could go stale given activity.


Leftovers


caledfwitch - the big concern is the tunneling of Guyett. There's an inconsistency to the trajectory we posted about in

JacobSavage - Lurkfuckery and the bauss vote

Peregrine - ISO includes getting pinged on an early MVP question for no discernible reason that transitioned to a few easy hops onto random wagons. His current push shows uncomfortableness with the orc wagon while pushing for the Guyett lynch he seemed to have conviction for earlier, which is bad regardless of orc's flip (scum, distancing but not pushing wagon. town, trying to push a different wagon but nothing viable).

RC - He is known as more of tryhard as scum, lurks like fucking crazy as town. He sometimes gets a little more involved when he latches onto something, but here he's latching onto Bauss like a leech and mimicking pretty much everything he says, while passing it off like it's his own original thought. We thought his "Frat BROs is my stronger read, but I guess I can settle for claimed cop orcinus" was suspiciously in step with Bauss's own thoughts, although I did sort of like his "normally I would claim cop here" shtick.

orcinus_theoriginal - see case in post
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Post Post #1999 (ISO) » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:32 pm

Post by Guyett »

Not sure I like orc's leap onto the Sak wagon... looks pretty desperate to me
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