Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Day 1, Votecount 21

Street Hassle [1]

Kid A

Kid A [0]

TvK [0]

My Milked Eek [3]

Squirrel Girl, Garmr, ICEninja

LolWagons [0]

Regfan [0]

ICEninja [0]

Garmr [4]

My Milked Eek, havingfitz, TvK, The Silver Bard

Squirrel Girl [0]

The Silver Bard [0]

Wake88 [0]

Herself [0]

havingfitz [4]

Street Hassle, LolWagons, Regfan, Herself

Not Voting [1]

- Wake88

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is on November 23rd at 7:30 AM PST or in (expired on 2013-11-23 07:30:00)

[My Milked Eek]

Wake, where in the world are you in this thread? Read the last few pages to get all the answers to your questions.
No seriously. Stop the questions until Day 2. Get to reading, the last three, four pages were quite eventful. I don't want you dicking around asking questions and not giving us any information on the latest developments.

I'm sorry Eek, you're a nice guy, but I don't think it's going to work that way. I would rather ask you questions directly, rather than hunt and guess, and assume what it is you're meaning. Asking questions is explicitly how you gather information. Please Eek, answer those four questions. I'm planning to provide some more reads on the latest developments, but in the meantime your willingness to work with me on behalf of Town is what's keeping me from striking you down with my vote at the moment.

I wouldn't mind your questions if they were up to date. ICE pretty much answered them for me (well actually I already answered them in the thread, which you would know if you had read it). And I don't really see you do anything with these questions. You can of course correct me on this, but I doubt it.

You say my willingness to cooperate on "behalf of the town" is what's keeping you from voting me, yet in my opinion, you're a non-entity in this game. You're just here collecting your answers.

I'm also not going to be badgered into answering your silly questions if they could be answered by just reading the thread. If this is how cheap your vote is, then it wouldn't have mattered where it was in the first place.

So, if you would read the entire thread (even the last 4-5 pages would be a lot better than what you're doing now) and comment, that would be swell.
On behalf of the town,
Eek.

[havingfitz]

Havingfitz

 

———✹

In as few words as possible, between Herself and Garmr who is the better vote and why?

I would prefer Herself to Garmr to be perfectly honest but as I’ve mentioned a few times, I’m not going to let my vote waste away if my prime suspect isn’t getting support.  So why would I actually prefer Herself?
 
The beaten to death crap case on me evolving from my 1st 2 posts.
Painting my reactions as against my typical meta (wrt defending myself) which is clearly incorrect.
Advocating policy lynches on lurkers 6 or 7 pages into the game.
Trying to encourage votes on me based on the fact my v/LA had ended….13 minutes into the day I was coming off v/LA.  (Ridiculous)
Post 311 and Post 367 and probably more. 
 
I’m about to start my commute so this will have to suffice for now.
 

———✹

What's your exact read on LolWagon? Please be as brutally honest as possible.

I suspect the LolWagon based on T S O’s play and on his efforts against me.  Call it OMGUS…I’m fine with that…but when I am town I consider anything that calls my alignment into question to be suspect.  I go into this more in depth with Lol in my Post 678.
 
 

———✹

Would you be willing to work with Garmr to tone it down and more civilly search for Scum?

I did not realize I was being uncivil.  If I am please point it out and I will adjust.  I think Garmr is scum so I do not see me “working with” him.

[TvK]

TvK

———✹

You haven't contributed as much as others. Why?

———✹

What is your read of me? You've neglected to do so, even in your read post (280).

———✹

Currently, is Havingfitz leaning more Town or Scum in your opinion?

1. That's my way of playing the game. I'm not the guy that will start a huge case on someone on page 4 or that starts tunnelling people the moment they seem a little scummy. I do think that the things I say are useful and clear.

2. You're complete null to me. You provide a lot of information from tons of questions. Now I just want you to use this information to also actively do something.

3. He's leaning scum, but Garmr and Bard are my biggest scumreads. I already said why I didn't like him and my opinion hasn't changed because of the fact that we are both on the Garmr wagon.

[Garmr]

3. He's leaning scum, but Garmr and Bard are my biggest scumreads. I already said why I didn't like him and my opinion hasn't changed because of the fact that we are both on the Garmr wagon.

Sorry just had to point this out. 2 of your scum reads are on your other scum reads wagon and you haven't even questioned why.

[Herself]

The beaten to death crap case on me evolving from my 1st 2 posts.

The only person who's beaten those two posts to death is you, they've barely factored into my read since Street and I discussed it originally.

Painting my reactions as against my typical meta (wrt defending myself) which is clearly incorrect.

It is not clearly incorrect. I posted samples from two town games and from your post 187 and there were clear differences. You've adjusted your style w/r/t this slot since that happened.

Advocating policy lynches on lurkers 6 or 7 pages into the game.

The same lurkers that you agreed were scummy on page 8? "Players I suspect atm: Herself, Orestes, the non-posters." - Fitz, Post #187

Trying to encourage votes on me based on the fact my v/LA had ended….13 minutes into the day I was coming off v/LA.  (Ridiculous)

Actually, I was encouraging SG to vote you for additional pressure; she balked because you were V/LA and the vote wouldn't do any good if you couldn't respond to the pressure, to which I responded that your V/LA was over. It doesn't matter

how long

it had been over, the salient point was that SG was now aware that voting you would, in fact, elicit a reaction.

- Des

[My Milked Eek]

I'm so sick and tired of ICE. Seriously.

However look at this: The Eek wagon was so close to closing out then all the sudden at the last second a Garmr wagon explodes out of nowhere. This is exactly what I would expect to happen if Eek was scum. It's damn hard to lynch scum on day 1, and wagons on scum fall apart at the drop of a hat. I will admit that Eek put together a half decent case on Garmr, but it is just too little too late for me to be convinced that Garmr is scum and Eeked is town. Also the way that Eek's wagon just fell apart in favor of what is probably an easily pushed mislynch at this point (Garmr) makes me fairly confident of where my vote is.

Look. You admit that my case on garm is half decent (I find it superb) yet it is too late to be convinced that garm is scum. It is never too late to be convinced that garm is scum and that I'm town. We still have +- 3 irl days, so why are you lying about this? Why are you hesitant to change your opinion on me? Why are you so fixated on your scenario where I'm scum? You mention garm is an easily pushed mislynch, yet you do not recognize that I was an easily pushed mislynch. Why do you not see that? I was the easiest mislynch there was. And I'm surprised that you're still pushing for it. Are you always this stubborn? You're really conflicting that town read that I had on you.

If you honestly can't see that I was the easiest lynch in the game, then we're done, I'll be ignoring your posts. I don't care what you're going to say, I'm not reading it.

[Garmr]

I'm so sick and tired of ICE. Seriously.

However look at this: The Eek wagon was so close to closing out then all the sudden at the last second a Garmr wagon explodes out of nowhere. This is exactly what I would expect to happen if Eek was scum. It's damn hard to lynch scum on day 1, and wagons on scum fall apart at the drop of a hat. I will admit that Eek put together a half decent case on Garmr, but it is just too little too late for me to be convinced that Garmr is scum and Eeked is town. Also the way that Eek's wagon just fell apart in favor of what is probably an easily pushed mislynch at this point (Garmr) makes me fairly confident of where my vote is.

Look. You admit that my case on garm is half decent (I find it superb) yet it is too late to be convinced that garm is scum. It is never too late to be convinced that garm is scum and that I'm town. We still have +- 3 irl days, so why are you lying about this? Why are you hesitant to change your opinion on me? Why are you so fixated on your scenario where I'm scum? You mention garm is an easily pushed mislynch, yet you do not recognize that I was an easily pushed mislynch. Why do you not see that? I was the easiest mislynch there was. And I'm surprised that you're still pushing for it. Are you always this stubborn? You're really conflicting that town read that I had on you.

If you honestly can't see that I was the easiest lynch in the game, then we're done, I'll be ignoring your posts. I don't care what you're going to say, I'm not reading it.

Half decent is a back handed compliment it's a positive and a negative. I think it's a half decent effort as well, it was good that you took your time to write it and it had a allot of content. But then again i did debunk it with one post and it wasn't the case wasn't the game changer like you said it would as some of it was easily brushed aside with just a second glance at the posts you brought up.

I would like to point out saying if "this person is a easy mislynch then i'm a easy mislynch as well" falls into the category of survivor mentality which is often seen in scum(Including SKS) in general and town power roles but since you already claimed to be nothing special I am going for the former.

[Garmr]

ebwop Sorry i'm tired must sleep

It wasn't the case that was the game changer you said it was

[My Milked Eek]

Half decent is a back handed compliment it's a positive and a negative. I think it's a half decent effort as well, it was good that you took your time to write it and it had a allot of content. But then again i did debunk it with one post and it wasn't the case wasn't the game changer like you said it would as some of it was easily brushed aside with just a second glance at the posts you brought up.

I'll have what you're on. But only half of it. Seems a bit too strong.

I would like to point out saying if "this person is a easy mislynch then i'm a easy mislynch as well" falls into the category of survivor mentality which is often seen in scum(Including SKS) in general and town power roles but since you already claimed to be nothing special I am going for the former.

That is so not what I said. I was the easiest lynch around before I made my case on you. This is independent of ICE's opinion of the case on you. If ICE can't grasp that, then, as said, we're done.

[LolWagons]

Fitz:
-> those percentages were arbitrary. They arent really meant to be accurate, only (relatively) highlight what your ISO had consisted of.
-> I didn't answer the questions on purpose to see if you would even follow up on them. Trust me, I remember, and I've been waiting to see if you would. Regfan and I hydraed a lot together and would always match reads almost to a tee as town. One of the only reasons I joined this game was I saw he was in it, and I immediately looked for his reads upon replacing in to see if he had been thinking along the same lines as me. It was more of a giddy eagerness to hopefully work alongside him to hunt scum like we used to. Regfan has given me pause because he isn't engaging me as much as I would have thought he would as town.
-> I dont normally meta people, but you are going to have to give me an example or two of you as town saying or clearly acting like anyone who votes you is suspect. Thats a really easy way to explain away omgus and I'm not buying it without proof.
->The first two posts case was great on the first couple pages but I would not be leading a wagon this late into day 1 with just that alone.
-> HF, your wagon was probably the biggest one up until that point and I clearly outlined why I thought you were scum. It might not have been a pbpa case or a huge wall but it was there. Eek asking what the reasons for voting you were came off to me as him wanting to ignore what was going on. Pretty sure most everyone has commented on it, either saying they dont understamd it or they agree with it. I singled him out because he specifically admitted to not paying attention/ not remembering it. ITs way easier to see one person who says "i have no stance" than it is to ISO all 13 players and see who commented and who didnt. I'd probably do that if you flipped scum, but that is not worth my effort right now before I even see a flip.

ICE, how familiar are you with my playstyle?

[LolWagons]

I'm going to bold that because I need an answer as soon as possible.

Ice how familiar are you with my playstyle?

More on the very newly active people later. For real this time. I had unexpected guests wanting to drive up and visit this weekend and had to clean house the last two evenings (I havent deep cleaned in the three and a half months ive been here in Indy >_> ew)

[ICEninja]

Garmr I was going to let this go but it has happened too many times and it's a pet peeve of mine. If something is cold, you don't say its accold, if something is tall you don't say its attall, so if something is much, you don't say its allot. A. LOT. TWO WORDS.

Look. You admit that my case on garm is half decent (I find it superb) yet it is too late to be convinced that garm is scum.

Honestly, why do you think one half decent case is going to change my views on him being on the townish end of my "meh" pile for pretty much all day, when it comes from my strongest scum read? It wasn't an awful case, there were a couple things worth noticing, and should I end up wrong and you flip town I'll certainly go back and look at it in more depth, but you've done so much scummy stuff I can't let it go. If you really are town then you getting lynched is on you for saying the stuff I've pointed out and am voting you for.

Why are you hesitant to change your opinion on me? Why are you so fixated on your scenario where I'm scum?

Because I'm pretty confident that I'm right. It's that simple.

Then there are these two statements:

Are you always this stubborn?

I'll be ignoring your posts. I don't care what you're going to say, I'm not reading it.

Yeah...it shouldn't be too hard to notice the double standard here.

ICE, how familiar are you with my playstyle?

If you're Slaxx, then I remember playing with you and remember liking you, and I seem to recall that you're a particularly good mod. That's about it.

[The Silver Bard]

OK. So I ISO'ed Garmr and my vote stays on him. In fact I am sure he is scum now. I am so sure that I wager my spot in the game on it. So if Garmr flips town you are free to lynch me. Heck, you can even lynch me first if you promise to lynch Garmr on day 2.

So here is my thoughts going through his posts in ISO (note, red numbers indicates posts I think is scummy, green=townie, non=neutral):

39

Votes SG for sheeping. And some strange line about BF in a different game
46 Fluff, but neutral this early
47 Fluff, but neutral this early

49

Somewhat likes this post. Brings opinions on players. Not taking stances though.
50 A question for Orestes which is basically a null here.
53 Talking about sheeping. A post to just seem active?
55 Talking about sheeping. A post to just seem active?

58

Talking about sheeping. A post to just seem active? Together with his 3 other posts this = scumpoint. Gives me a bad feel. The whole "Desp it's you (facepalm). Nobody cares about you hmphh" feels like scumbuddies trying to distance.
63 A big post that says very little, but gets in a vote on Orestes. Null pretty much

91

Says he likes Herself and SG here.
99 Fluff
135 Question for Herself. Null
139 Puts some light suspicion on to SH. Null

142

Question dodging, and some fluff.
146 Fluff
162 Fluff
180 Want havingfitz to post

183

Don't see anything in rvs as serious, but votes SG for sheeping in rvs. Very Very strange

234

The wording: "don't see him as town". And then turning it into havingfitz is a good day 1 lynch after sheeping Herself. Strange. Nonsensical post. To seem active. Nothing to say about the game?
248 Qustion for Regfan. Pretty nonsaying though.
256 Fluff
271 Puts out a townread on regfan. Rest is fluff.
281 Fluff and trolling

373

Trolling. Plus softpushing someone he got as a townread for scum (regfan). Showing slight interest in jumping on some easy wagons (MME and havingfitz). Some other reads, but the first part here seems very scummy.
376 Some fluff, then answer questions.
377 EBWOP. Nothing important

379

Joins the milktrain without reasoning. Note he is now sheeping (he didn't like sheeping earlier...).
388 Fluff
391 Post a read. OK I guess.
393 Response to Herself. Null
396 Gets the "hebbie jebbies" from Herself. Don't act on it though, still a null.
418 Defensive against LolWagons post. Maybe overly defensive. Null
420 Fluff
428 A fluffy quuestion for SG
440 Question for lolwagon. Null.

448

Selfmeta. And provides it after Lolwagons say he haven't readmetaed him. He feels the need to tell us what he does as scum. Strange
452 Fluff
454 A request thatKid A post reasons. Fair enough.
459 Null
460 Null
487 Questioning me (a relevant question to). Also puts Herself as maybe scum, but rather want to lynch hf, who in turn will prove Herself town if flipping scum (this is interesting for later, when he starts leaning town on Herself). Also gives Wake a townread.
492 fluff fluff fluff

511

From 487 where he expresses no such feeling, to agreeing with TvK about my reads being total crap. Strange.

528

Question for SG on how she reads me? Hmm, want a wagon to start on me by someone else now??? Rather strange question.

536

Only interesting in defending himself here. When later voting MEE he then thinks his readpost is bad, why not mentionit here?
541 Fluff
543 Answers a question. Null
544 Fluff

547

Notices that MEE is a common scumread between "us". But haven't expressed conserns about MEE being scum by now.
556 Response to me. Will give reads.

560

Like some of his reads, but not all. Some I really don't like. A weak scumpoint.
565 Question for TvK. Null.

567

Attack on havingfitz, without a case. Just sheeping. Strange
568 Claim that havingfitz's scumreads are just OMGUS.
569 Fluff
573 Refuses to provide reasons for a havingfitz lynch. Just keeps sheeping onto Herself.
582 Selfmeta, fluff.

584

Selfmeta. This time uses it as proof for not being scum. "More passive as scum he says". BS I say.

593

Still no reasons for wanting havingfitz lynched. Still sheeping Herself. Argues poorly.

620

Accuses me for not bringing up something my slot did earlier, why would I? I don't know his reasons. Still provides no arguements to why havingfitz is scum.His response to why he don't like MME and me seems strange.
626 Pushes for MME, ok.
658 Pushes MME to bring a case on himself ( Garmr), ok.
660 Follow up to 658. OK.
661 Null
662 Null

665

A forced push on MME.
667 Strange post. Actually seems nervous that MME will post a case on him.
669 Fluff
676 Defends himself. But not very well. "Think" he have "torn apart" MME's case. Null.
677 Followup on 676.
683 More defense.
684 Followup on 683
686 Fluff.
691 Null
692 Fluff
697 Defense. Null
706 Fluff
724 Answering questions.
729 Fluff.
732 Still thinks he "tore apart" MME's case.
733 Followup to 732

Also note that writing this much fluff in itself is pretty scummy.

[The Silver Bard]

I couldn't sleep, I needed to sum up why we should lynch Garm today:

1. Fluff:

His filter is full of fluff. Instead of scumhunting he have written a lot of posts that say nothing. He got 81 posts in his filter, and a large part of them is fluff. Why is fluff scummy? Well, it is harder for scum to write something sensible about the game, and it is easier to just troll around, post questions that aren’t going nowhere and in general just do stuff that make them seem active.

2. A lack of reasoning/sheeping:

He have given very few reasons as to why his reads are as they are. Most of it is either him sheeping, or him writing up some poorly reasoned explanations. I will say that he haven’t provided any reasons on his own for any of his scumreads: MME, havingfitz (where he is blatantly sheeping Herself) and me. Why is this scummy? It is harder to make up reasons as scum than it is to give genuine reads and reasons as town. Also not providing reasons makes it easier to fly under the radar.

3. Going for the easy targets:

His target for scum have been people who early on lurked (or was V/LA), and who later have been scumreads on a majority of the players readlists. The way he have approached it is also very cautious, where he have first expressed just a slight suspicion, or a willingness to maybe join this wagon if anyone gets it rolling. Why is this scummy? Going with the majority seems safe. And if you aren’t the one pushing hardest, you won’t become the one who receives the most attention. You can also lean on others arguments, not having to make them up yourself.

4. Inconsistency

His game have been full of inconsistency. He spent the entire start of the game arguing that sheeping was bad for town. Later he have done nothing but sheeping others cases. When I entered the game he was slightly cautious of Herself, but later and seemingly without a reason he is now sheeping her and have her as one of his townreads. He got a townread on Regfan, that not very much later is someone he is suddenly suspicious of (when someone else mentions they are suspicious of him) and which in turn again ends up in a townread in his readpost.

5. Other stuff

He responds to posts that mention himself, and is eager to defend himself. He doesn’t comment on other things in these posts until much later, and usually after someone else thinks something in those posts are scummy. He is overly defensive, and anxious when he is mentioned, or in the case where EMM was about to write a case on him.

So Garmr is clearly scum and should be our lynch today.

[havingfitz]

but you are going to have to give me an example or two of you as town saying or clearly acting like anyone who votes you is suspect

It's not the voting of me I have issues with...it's people making crap cases against me to raise suspicions toward me.

Here are several posts that illustrate my aversion to people not having cases on me (IMO):

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2221062

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2933180

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4182226

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4584610

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4633874

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4885982

and I'm tired of looking. But I use bad cases against me often and on more than one occasion it has been against scum.

Just do a search of crap case on my posts and you'll find other examples.

[Street Hassle]

I would honestly be surprised if BOTH Eek and fitz were scum. I suppose in a game where we have this many competent pro-town players it would be possible, but it just feels implausible that town wagoned two scum already. I don't really want to focus too hard on who is scum for day 2 yet, but I tend to be transparent about what certain flips will make me feel about others. And just about every game I do it someone calls me out for "lining up lynches" or something along those lines but I'm going to keep doing it because I think being clear about that sort of thing is the correct play.

However look at this: The Eek wagon was so close to closing out then all the sudden at the last second a Garmr wagon explodes out of nowhere. This is exactly what I would expect to happen if Eek was scum. It's damn hard to lynch scum on day 1, and wagons on scum fall apart at the drop of a hat. I will admit that Eek put together a half decent case on Garmr, but it is just too little too late for me to be convinced that Garmr is scum and Eeked is town. Also the way that Eek's wagon just fell apart in favor of what is probably an easily pushed mislynch at this point (Garmr) makes me fairly confident of where my vote is.

We have 4 players we are leaning scum on. Eek is one of them but you've nailed some of the reasons why we kinda want to move him to null/town, and you've also nailed some of the reasons why we kinda want to leave him in our scumpile.

We still want to lynch Fitz.

I'm really not understanding the town reads on Kid A. And I want to lynch TSB almost as badly as I do fitz after some of his recent posts.

[LolWagons]

Wake is town when he doesn't ask those questions. They seemed forced. Outside of that I like the content he is bringin forward.

TSB makes me cringe.

TvK is still doing great at being meh.

I plan on reading into HF-meta more tomorrow. With three potential wagons now itll be interesting to see if this gives me pause or not. I kinda hope it does.

The reason I asked that question to ICE is because before when I first replaced in he says he thinks he recalls me, but then later said I was a really good player who would salvage any slot. I'm trying to figure out where he made that jump, especially when we take into account mafia have daytalk. I was straight up trying to bait him with the question I just asked about familiarity and I'm honestly not for sure where I stand on it now. I'll give him a chance to explain why he made the jump he did but I wanted to see a response from him before he knew what I was getting at.

[LolWagons]

Yeah TSB posts are bad

"theres a link between this guy X and this guy Y...vote Y"
"ah, Y couldnt have made this up and its just too much effort for scum....follows previous vote Y onto Vote Z"

Opportunistic and the justifications look forced and just overdone in general. How do other people feel about TSB?

[ICEninja]

There should be no town reads on Kid A. I would be happy seeing him lynched here and now if for whatever reason we couldn't manage a MME lynch.

Bard isn't my preferred lynch, and I actually think his case on Garmr is half decent too (and more credible because I think it is less likely to be coming from scum than Eek's case), but I'm definitely not handing him any town reads.

LolWagons, because you're a good player. Like I said, I recall you being a good/enjoyable player but I can't recall any games you've replaced in to. Honestly I don't really remember what was specifically going through my head when I made that post beyond frustration at how everyone was so easily letting TSO's stuff go, so I'm not sure exactly what I can say about it.

[ICEninja]

I noted that a lot of TSB's points regarding a scum read on SG required Herself to be scum and a lot of the points regarding a scum read on Herself required SG to be scum which is absolutely did not like even a little bit. The Garmr case is a lot better though.

[LolWagons]

My reads keep fluctuating so much. I still trust (Street, Herself) to be town. I trust (Wake, MME) slightly less. I think (ICE, Regfan, SG, Kid A) are all stil null-town but I've been doubting these more as new town reads creep in, which stinks, because I like to keep town reads. Anyway, I don't think there is more than one scum in that list although there probably is one.

That leaves Garmr/ TSB/ HF/TvK.

TSB and Garmr arent partners together. Not seeing it. Garmr doesnt really work with any of these people which why although I can't read him alone I can say if Im right about there being two in this group its probably not him and someone else.

[LolWagons]

ICE how is MME's case more scum motivated than Bard's?

Eek started that wagon from scratch when there were two perfectly good counterwagons he could have latched on to in hopes of survival. I'm not seeing the scum motive there.

[Garmr]

Id like to point out once i flip town saying the garmr case was good would be flawed.

[ICEninja]

The case wasn't more town motivated, it came from someone who isn't almost certainly scum.