Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Day 1, Votecount 23

Street Hassle [1]

Kid A

Kid A [0]

TvK [0]

My Milked Eek [1]

Squirrel Girl

LolWagons [0]

Regfan [0]

ICEninja [0]

Garmr [4]

My Milked Eek, havingfitz, TvK, The Silver Bard

Squirrel Girl [0]

The Silver Bard [0]

Wake88 [0]

Herself [0]

havingfitz [6]

Street Hassle, LolWagons, Regfan, Herself, Garmr, ICEninja

Not Voting [1]

- Wake88

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is on November 23rd at 7:30 AM PST or in (expired on 2013-11-23 07:30:00)

[ICEninja]

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

Best post by TvK to memory.

[havingfitz]

Town is stupid.

Odd night Vig

Nice work.

[Street Hassle]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

[TvK]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

Can't you conclude from this that Garmr has to be scum and Fitz and Eek are probably both town?

[Herself]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

Quick check shows bard would have had a hard time justifying a vote on fitz, and fitz wasn't going to self-vote. TvK passing up Fitz for Garmr makes the least sense though. Based on his ISO fitz was consistently scummier than garmr until #580 and then he kind of awkwardly transposes them, then votes Garmr.

Unvote
Vote: TvK

I'd like him to explain his actions re: Eek/Garmr/Fitz wagons

- Des

[Herself]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

Can't you conclude from this that Garmr has to be scum and Fitz and Eek are probably both town?

It takes some pretty heavy gymnastics to come to a conclusion like this based on what happened.

- Des

[Herself]

Ok, let's go through what I missed.

I very much liked the conversation between SG and Street on page 5-6, however, I didn't approve of SG's conclusion, Street's reasoning seems legit to me.

@ Street: I want to work with Kid A, Garmr, SG, and Ice today. Do any of them miss the cut for you two?

Hmm, Kid A? Don't see how he should be in this group. Unless you played with him before...

I still like Garmr's way of posting, same with the Des head of Herself. Very good content in his posts.

I can't really read ICE at this moment. Especially his last couple of posts where he really focuses on Herself. But still, none of his points could maybe convince me to thinking Herself is scummy.

I also only have a few completed games in here, including 0 scum games.

Anyway, I'm having a hard time reading people in here. Too many people come across as town, but still I'm waiting for all of them to say something that I can find scummy. That's probably why my vote is still on Orestes and also why I don't like Kid A. To get town credit, they should come in here and post stuff. I don't see how 1/2 decent posts followed by 6 pages of silence belongs in the town read pile.

Same with TSO, he has given literally zero content. And with fitz as well, as I said before, his wall looks impressive, but it says nothing.

But lets run through this, who do you currently have read as town and why?

Street: No doubt about these guys, I don't think I need to explain why they are town. Clear and helpful content in nearly all of their posts.

Herself: Town, I like their way of hunting. I really liked #155.

Squirrel Girl: Never really could consolidate a good town read on her. Now that I read her ISO, I don't feel good about #113, where she says she has nothing but a town read on Street, and then suddenly she votes them in #126, while Street just didn't want to give away his reasons to the person he was voting. Then again in #209, she votes Fitz. She never stated if she thought Street was less scummy to go on to vote Fitz because she was convinced by Herself, even though she says she doesn't agree with the points made because of Fitz's meta. Does not look good, imo.

ICE: I like his #112 and #125. Even though I don't agree with his reasoning to vote Herself for most of the day, I do think he is town. But his latest posts reflect my thoughts, with #277 as a perfect example.

Garmr: A bit of this and a bit of that. I can't say I have a town read on him. I can't say I find him scummy. Absolute null at the moment.

Fitz: Still think he doesn't look good.

Regfan: Yup, you are exactly right, I haven't done anything townish yet in this game, thanks for pointing that out. I hope this looks a bit better to you.

TSO: No content = no towncred = in the case of this game, looking scummy.

Orestes: Unless he does actually sleep for 32 hours straight, every minute that goes by without him posting his long-awaited "go into more next post"-post is making him look worse. Liking my vote here.

Kid A: I still don't see how 4 one-liners make him look townish to nearly everyone. And in his last post he is even asking Herself's read on Street, while it was incredibly obvious that Herself found them town.

Milked Eek: Same as TSO.

My reads (haven't changed a lot since #280:

TOWN

Street
Herself
ICE
Regfan

LEANING TOWN

Squirrel Girl, I'll have to admit that her playing style threw me off at the beginning, but now I'm fairly sure that she's town.

NULL

LolWagons
Kid A
Garmr, although I didn't like his very soft attack on me in #391, that felt a bit forced, trying to do something townish.

LEANING SCUM

Eek
Fitz, the fact that we haven't heard from him in a while makes him look worse imo.

SCUM

Bard, not for having an opinion I don't agree with. He's trying to make cases when there are none. His entire attack at Herself, SG and me feels so fabricated, nothing natural at all. Desparately trying to look town.

Up to here it's pretty clear where TvK stands on Garmr and Fitz--Fitz is scummy and Garmr is null. He even clarifies further here:

I can't catch you on really doing something scummy, but I can't seem to get a solid townread on you. You occasionally say something about your reads, and you've asked a few questions. But you never really go deeper into something. I sometimes find your questions too careful, as if you want to ask some, but you're not really interested in getting an answer. The same with your scumreads. You say you don't like Bard, but the only things you have done is agreeing with me that his reasoning was weird and you gave him your reads. You just called him scum without really questioning what his reasons were. You had a little conversation with Eek, but all you did was answer his questions without putting some heat on him, even though your vote is still on him.

And to answer your final question: I would want Bard lynched most, followed by Fitz.

P-EDIT: GOt quadruple ninja'd, will address those posts in a bit.

Engaging Garmr as if he's clearly uncertain about him, and declarative that he wants Bard first, Fitz 2nd.

To make it clear, my previous post was an answer to Garmr's #565

Right. Approaching Garmr with uncertainty, got it.

@TvK wrtPost 564...what would your read on me be if you weren't factoring in my not having posted in a while (Please note my sig block ). 

The fact you're tunnelling so hard on Herself. Apart from your arguement with them, which is not really going somewhere, I feel like you've not really looked at other players (maybe you have, but all the other players seem like a side note to you at the moment). In 2 posts you have given your reads, that mostly include null reads with a dash of leaning town. Your latest readlist looks a bit better (in terms of more balanced out), even though I don't like it that you find Wake and Eek town, when they only posted a little bit of content on the last couple of pages.

Confirming again that he thinks Fitz is scum. Definitely scummier than Garmr, who he just reminded us that he can't get a grip on and is thus null.

Garmr, do you always react this heavy when someone calls you scummy? I actually found Fitz's points about you quite valid, and not as ignorant or omgus as you call it. Also, I don't like your explanation for your case on Fitz. So he's scummy because he was not going for the lurker, but rather for a player that posted a lot of content?

Caught up again. I still don't like Garmr, but I also don't think we can avoid an Eek lynch. Will post more detailed stuff later.

Wait, what? What do you mean "still don't like Garmr?" Weren't you scumreading Fitz? How did an argument between a scum and a null read turn the null read into a scum read?

I agree with every bolded statement in Eek's #679. Especially the one about the meta. When Garmr mentioned his scumgame (can't remember the exact #), I read the game and I must say, his playstyle has a lot in common with what he's doing here. I'm also not impressed at all by his response to Eek big post, especially because he seems so confident that he really "debunked" it. Guess it's time to hop on the wagon, took me long enough to find a good place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Garmr

Wait,

what?!?

Where was all of this when Garmr was null? I don't buy that the last breaths of what had just been an inevitable lynch have completely changed your perception of Garmr that you had clearly built throughout the thread.

Eek is town, Garmr is town, Fitz might be town but could still be scum (and needs to shoot tonight--preferrably Silver Bard or Kid A).

- Des

[Wake1]

The questions being asked are meant to draw out information from everyone, to be used as a reference for all. With each passing Day the information gathered becomes increasingly helpful, because these older reactions can be cross-referenced with the actions of the present. The information gathered is only useful if you use it. You may use it to build cases, augment questions, contradict people's current actions, whatever. I've got some suspicions based on these reactions and other discussions, but because it is Day 1 there's likely not going to be enough weight to lynch someone while having some vestige of certainty. At this point I'm not exactly sure what to do with the information being amassed. My current gut Scum reads are SG and ICEninja, and Kid A is the wildcard., although there's not much in way of damning evidence. Another thing that needs to be made clear is that I'm really trying to focus on and absorb every single post and interaction in this game, and it's a bit exhausting. I've now had to break out my notebook and pen to start sifting through all of the latest activity. Lastly myquestions stir up discussion, so that's yet another benefit to Town.

Havingfitz, what does "wrt" mean? That's been popping up quite a bit and it's been bugging me because I haven't understood it. Regarding Herself's stance on policy-lynching lurkers, it really depends; I have no problem lynching flakes or deliberate lurkers. It does seem a little ridiculous that Herself would encourage votes on you so soon after coming off V/LA. With T S O I don't fault him for replacing out from being in too many games. Logically, both Town and Scum can and

have

done so in the past. Fitz, exactly what other efforts did T S O try against you, please? You do alarm me a bit when you mention that anyone who calls your alignment into question is suspicious. Does it make you suspicious if, say, you suspect someone else's alignment? I'm fairly certain I saw you and Garmr going at it, getting inflamed and spitting fire. I may be wrong, though.

Eek, my questions aren't meant to solely target the present. The past is as rich for asking questions as the present is. Also, as respectfully as I can say it it really doesn't matter if you say or think it's already been answered somewhere else in the past. A show of good Town faith is to at least try and answer questions directed your way; it's unlikely you'd like it if someone simply said "no" and "it's been answered already" in response to you when you really don't know they've exactly done so. It's doubtful you'd want me assuming which questions you have or haven't answered, and you definitely don't want me guessing at their meanings (especially if you're Scum). With all the respect I can muster, these questions really do matter. I'm afraid the notion that I'm a "non-entity" in this game is as absurd as it is offensive; detail for everyone my ISO and prove that I've said or contributed nothing, please. And before I forget, because she hasn't been around, what do you think of Squirrel Girl?

ICEninja, I like you but it's becoming a bit trying to not start aggressively leading your wagon. You imply my questions are shitty and pointless. I don't understand your non-logic, and I'll challenge you to point out and explain exactly which questions are shitty and pointless. The implication by you and Eek that they were already answered (Oh, were they? Definitively?) doesn't matter, because I'm asking you

at that moment

, so I can gather the data

straight from you

, in a format in which I can easily organize and store it. I understand that you're "getting really twitchy" about me, so I guess I'll have to pay you more mind by keeping a watchful eye on you. Because you're now on my radar, I've got some questions for you. Why do you assume these questions are so "empty, pointless, irrelevant, and shitty?" You know, I'm starting to think you're Scum because your attempt to diminish my information-gathering feels more than a little forced. Again, I challenge you to prove that bit of yours, or let it go once and for all. If you were Scum you'd have every single reason in the world to put a lid on Townies who are trying to gather info, so I'm asking you to stop it, and if you don't I'll have no choice but to judge you as Scum and become your impediment. The more Town has to look back on when in future Days, the more valuable that information will be. Lastly, you really don't need to speak on someone else's behalf: everyone here is capable of of defending his or her own positions.

Squirrel Girl is the other gut Scum read I have, but at this moment all I have are a collection of attempts by her to find fault in my actions. By the way, where has she gone? Street Hassle feels more or less detached and aloof, so it's a little difficult trying to get a read on him. Kid A hasn't been around much, at all. Garmr's bothered to answer my questions like a gentleman. The Silver Bard, well, I haven't got much of a read on him either, although I've read past the time I wrote this post and got scum vibes from his attempt to push a lynch on Garmr. I like the Desperado half of Herself, but I met unexpected resistance from the Mollie side; if Herself is Scum, Desperado would be wise to keep Mollie in check. I'm not sure about Fitz (and beyond this chunk of thought I see he's claimed semi-Vig PR). Street Hassle should find some fire in its gut belly and step more into the fray; I don't recall him even asking me questions or making a case. Come on you two. Engage. I keep forgetting TvK is in this game. Regfan has a reputation of sorts for providing a lot of content, yet in this game even a dummy like me seems to be providing more content than him. It could be that he's legitimately busy, or he's Scum. If we were going to go the safest route and vote off the flakes/lurkers... or weakest links... it'd be Kid A on today's chopping block. I'd rather lynch a non-contributing player Day 1 than an unknown who's been pulling his or her own weight. Town is only as strong as its weakest link, so if you believe in that we should lynch Kid A today (providing he doesn't roleclaim something useful). Kid, you can either replace out, or show us you're worth keeping around.

VOTE: Kid A

*Written up last night. Posted today.

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

[Wake1]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

[Kid A]

anyone else starting to feel ICEninja as scum

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

so do you think iceninja could be scum yes/no

[Street Hassle]

anyone else starting to feel ICEninja as scum

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

so do you think iceninja could be scum yes/no

So you think we are scum, but have done jack shit about it for how many posts? You are rather noncommital about your reads. Waiting to see which way town jumps?

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

You're forgiven because I like where you've put your vote.

[TvK]

Unvote

This is very confusing.

If fitz is town and Eek is scum, what was the impetus for the garmr wagon? Why not just pile onto fitz?

Same problem in reverse with fitz scum and eek town. Why start a garmr wagon with the Eek wagon almost there?

Quick check shows bard would have had a hard time justifying a vote on fitz, and fitz wasn't going to self-vote. TvK passing up Fitz for Garmr makes the least sense though. Based on his ISO fitz was consistently scummier than garmr until #580 and then he kind of awkwardly transposes them, then votes Garmr.

Unvote
Vote: TvK

I'd like him to explain his actions re: Eek/Garmr/Fitz wagons

- Des

I used to have scumreads on each of the three wagons going on now. I dropped my scumread on Eek when he started posting (around #633), because his content struck me as very townish, and my main reason for suspecting him was his lurking/inactivity.

Garmr is a different story. I was too busy focusing on the lurkers at the start of the game (note my constant suspicion of Orestes and the fact that I never liked Eek or TSO), that I felt fine with having a nullread on Garmr even though he never really contributed, but at least he did post something. I still didn't think about him as Garmr when I got thrown off by Bard's posts that seemed really scummy to me. But then Garmr asked me some questions in #565, to which I responded in #571. I don't know if you can really notice it in the post itself, but I went in with Garmr as null and when I finished writing it, I had convinced myself that Garmr's play had been fishy all game long.

Now Fitz comes into the equasion. My scumread on Fitz was a combination of one of my strongest townreads (you) constantly attacking him without him being able to, in my opinion, say something townish. But from the moment that I thought Garmr was looking scummier, Fitz suddenly looked a bit better in the light I was looking at the game now. Both Eek's and Fitz's posts seemed more than enough to me to join the Garmr wagon.

[Kid A]

i think im more noncommital to the game than to making a case on you to be honest and if i havent got my shit together by sunday ill replace out

havingfitz is not an awful lynch because i dont like his reads and if hes really a vig he will probably shoot a town person-

on the other hand he is probably town so he is an awful lynch

[Kid A]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

You're forgiven because I like where you've put your vote.

whats wrong with your vote :/

[Street Hassle]

Wake, I've kept half an eye out, and I haven't seen any questions for me since that very first one. You indicated that I had failed to answer multiple questions and I threw it back in your court. You never followed up.

I don't remember that.

You're forgiven because I like where you've put your vote.

whats wrong with your vote :/

Nothing's wrong with it. Patience. There are formalities to follow and an appointment with regfan to meet.

[TvK]

My reads (haven't changed a lot since #280:

TOWN

Street
Herself
ICE
Regfan

LEANING TOWN

Squirrel Girl, I'll have to admit that her playing style threw me off at the beginning, but now I'm fairly sure that she's town.

NULL

LolWagons
Kid A
Garmr, although I didn't like his very soft attack on me in #391, that felt a bit forced, trying to do something townish.

LEANING SCUM

Eek
Fitz, the fact that we haven't heard from him in a while makes him look worse imo.

SCUM

Bard, not for having an opinion I don't agree with. He's trying to make cases when there are none. His entire attack at Herself, SG and me feels so fabricated, nothing natural at all. Desparately trying to look town.

Up to here it's pretty clear where TvK stands on Garmr and Fitz--Fitz is scummy and Garmr is null. He even clarifies further here:

I can't catch you on really doing something scummy, but I can't seem to get a solid townread on you. You occasionally say something about your reads, and you've asked a few questions. But you never really go deeper into something. I sometimes find your questions too careful, as if you want to ask some, but you're not really interested in getting an answer. The same with your scumreads. You say you don't like Bard, but the only things you have done is agreeing with me that his reasoning was weird and you gave him your reads. You just called him scum without really questioning what his reasons were. You had a little conversation with Eek, but all you did was answer his questions without putting some heat on him, even though your vote is still on him.

And to answer your final question: I would want Bard lynched most, followed by Fitz.

P-EDIT: GOt quadruple ninja'd, will address those posts in a bit.

Engaging Garmr as if he's clearly uncertain about him, and declarative that he wants Bard first, Fitz 2nd.

I was thrown off by Bard's really strange way of scumhunting. And yes, I still prefered Fitz over Garmr, but Garmr's reactions to some posts adressing him in the enxt couple of posts made him look worse to me.

To make it clear, my previous post was an answer to Garmr's #565

Right. Approaching Garmr with uncertainty, got it.

I said in my previous post that I got quadruple ninja'd, just pointing out which post I was actually respinding to.

@TvK wrtPost 564...what would your read on me be if you weren't factoring in my not having posted in a while (Please note my sig block ). 

The fact you're tunnelling so hard on Herself. Apart from your arguement with them, which is not really going somewhere, I feel like you've not really looked at other players (maybe you have, but all the other players seem like a side note to you at the moment). In 2 posts you have given your reads, that mostly include null reads with a dash of leaning town. Your latest readlist looks a bit better (in terms of more balanced out), even though I don't like it that you find Wake and Eek town, when they only posted a little bit of content on the last couple of pages.

Confirming again that he thinks Fitz is scum. Definitely scummier than Garmr, who he just reminded us that he can't get a grip on and is thus null.

Garmr, do you always react this heavy when someone calls you scummy? I actually found Fitz's points about you quite valid, and not as ignorant or omgus as you call it. Also, I don't like your explanation for your case on Fitz. So he's scummy because he was not going for the lurker, but rather for a player that posted a lot of content?

Caught up again. I still don't like Garmr, but I also don't think we can avoid an Eek lynch. Will post more detailed stuff later.

Wait, what? What do you mean "still don't like Garmr?" Weren't you scumreading Fitz? How did an argument between a scum and a null read turn the null read into a scum read?

I said in #580 that I didn't like Garmr's reaction (didn't like = find scummy), and I also said I found Fitz's points valid (slight towncredit). I didn't immediatly respond, but Garmr's answer to this post, "yea I always do like this" and "oh no wait here a scum game where I didn't" (I already said that I didn't like his meta in the post where I voted him) were far from good responses.

I agree with every bolded statement in Eek's #679. Especially the one about the meta. When Garmr mentioned his scumgame (can't remember the exact #), I read the game and I must say, his playstyle has a lot in common with what he's doing here. I'm also not impressed at all by his response to Eek big post, especially because he seems so confident that he really "debunked" it. Guess it's time to hop on the wagon, took me long enough to find a good place.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Garmr

Wait,

what?!?

Where was all of this when Garmr was null? I don't buy that the last breaths of what had just been an inevitable lynch have completely changed your perception of Garmr that you had clearly built throughout the thread.

Eek is town, Garmr is town, Fitz might be town but could still be scum (and needs to shoot tonight--preferrably Silver Bard or Kid A).

- Des

[TvK]

anyone else starting to feel ICEninja as scum

Once again he just pops in when someone mentions that he hasn't been posting in a while. I'd love to go after this guy somewhere in day 2.

so do you think iceninja could be scum yes/no

The post was addressed to you. So I think you could be scum.

[Kid A]

i was aware but it seemed strange for someone to quote my question and then ignore which made me wonder what your read on iceninja is

[TvK]

Town

[Herself]

@ TvK: So if I have this right, you thought all three of Fitz, Bard, Eek, and Garmr were all scum (in roughly that order), but then the posts of all three of the people you found scummy convinced you that Garmr was actually the scummiest? Even though Eek's case spans the entirety of Garmr's ISO (which you had been on record as being null on the entire game)?

^Not flying. TvK needs rope.

- Des

[Garmr]

UNVOTE: Fitz

Reading the thread after the claim and looking at things in a new light.

[Regfan]

I've got something seriously wrong if both Fitz and Milked are town. I'll need to step back and do a whole re-analysis on a few people (Kid A and TvK especially) but with less than 2 days until the deadline I think TSB's the person I feel most confident with right now and we need to start moving votes around if we're going to guarentee a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: TSB

Street, I have time off in 3-4 hours, you down to talk then?

Also Wake, the whole "Regfans provided little content" is massively untrue and kind of insulting to be honest (Bar a 2-3 day period where I stepped back to focus on my exams all my spare time and thought has been on this game, been thinking about reads and thoughts when I'm at the bar, took some notes with me when I went to a friends to read over for this and even think about this when I can't sleep).