Big Brother: HoH Mafia (We have a winner at last)

[Minions]

Case against Toog:

Possible godfather for the balance of the teams in the game.

Was immediately picked up for HoH by two of the three known scum players.

Readily requested to be investigated, which can be read both ways but the arguement here is that with limited investigations its better to investigate suspects rather than use them to town clear people, especially with mafia kills threatening.

Accusation of creating a divide by claiming F16 is buddying us.

Makes comments that clearly aim to point out a link in our thought process and his, which is buddying at the end of the day.

Peacebringers interaction with toog feels off, as he clearly doesn’t want to show any sort of positivity to toog but still then votes him as HoH.

Hypocricy for his selective suspicions when the reasons could apply to others whom he isn’t suspicious of (the example being the rachmarie push when imperium had been scum reading people with a similar tactic to rachmarie)

F16 case:

Has been identified by others as not actively scum hunting and focuses on town reading.

Pushed the godfather theory after toogeloo was investigated as town. Before the investigation though he was dismissive of a godfather idea and was pushing to discredit us.

Opened the last day phase sure toog was scum, then us and then BBmolla. The indecision isn’t the scumtell, its the sense of altering with the mood of the majority.

When talking us up as scum he talks about heading into lylo still, which would be odd if you are so sure we are scum.

Seemed to be scaremongering a third kill yesterday but was adamant today that there are no kills left (its clearly true there are no more kills so that part isn’t suspicious, its just theinitial fearmongering thats odd).

Bulba instantly agreed to the plan to have himself scanned with F16 as HoH, which draws into question whether there was a plan behind having F16 receive the result.

Reluctant to present a case against toog, even though he is the person F16 wants us to believe is the last scum.

Pointed out as not doing his own research to prove toog as scum but instead piggy backing our analysis for conclusions.



OK, i have done all i can to figure this one out. I am ready to make a decision, unless either of you have more for me to look at.

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 10.02:

Minions - Toog (L-1)

Not Voting - F-16, Minions

With 3 alive it takes 2 to elect an HoH.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-11-29 14:55:39) or by 1:00 PM on November 29th, 2013.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Minions, I am not sure why it isn't obvious at this point that Toog is scum. The smoking gun here is that without a godfather in the game, the game is

extremely

unbalanced. To break it down:

1) You are a cop that can confirm up to 2 players as town giving us 3 confirmed townies.
2) Mafia have 2 kills total.

Without a GF, this is ridiculous. Why give the town a cop, and give the mafia kills at all if mafia are simply forced to kill the cop and the confirmed players? Mafia are given kills so they can eliminate their threats based on player skill which is what they have done. By not having a mechanism to disrupt this, mafia are essentially being forced to kill specific confirmed players while leaving their threats alive. With a GF on the other hand, they don't need to do this since they can be falsely confirmed. As for who the GF is, assuming one exists, the evidence clearly points towards Toogeloo.

I'll address your other points here:
1) Focus on town-reading: I explained this in a lot of detail. Did you read my links to the games I provided where I post a literal mountain of evidence explaining why someone is town? That's a playstyle issue and not one of affiliation. I can post evidence but I can't do anything unless you are willing to examine it.
2) I was confused about whether there was a GF, or whether you were a scum cop. In my confusion, I posted whatever my thoughts were. I'd actually say that that is a towntell. Town have no information and are confused about things. Scum know everything. It is hard to fake confusion from an informed position. Toogeloo's cool responses are much more indicative of scum.
3) I scumread BBMolla based on the evidence that YOU presented. You convinced me. I can't help that my opinion co-incided with the majority opinion. Has not Toog's opinion been the same? He was first convinced I was scum. Based on the evidence you presented, he changed his mind.
4) I was not sure that you were scum at any point. There was always doubt whether I revealed it or not.
5) Not sure what you mean by "scaremongering." I was speculating about a third kill.

Look, if we are going to lose this game, I'd rather make sure that I have done everything I can to the best of my ability and left no stone unturned in ensuring a town victory. I'll present my case on Toog, post analysis, and give a comprehensive view about the game in the next 7 days before deadline. If you still choose wrong at that point, I can at least say that I gave it everything I got.

Also, I'd like you to broadcast who you are voting for so we are all clear about the outcome and all potential arguments have been exhausted. A "we are ready to make a decision" without saying what that decision is leaves me in the dark. The motivation for asking this is clear: if you are going to vote Toog, there is no reason for me to comb through the entire game again since that would be my desired outcome regardless of whether I am town or scum. Same goes for Toog. On the other hand, if you are going to vote me, I know I need to go through the entire game. I would probably do the same even if I were scum because at this point, my and Toog's goals are the same: not to get lynched - and are not alignment indicative.

[Minions]

I will be honest with you f16, based on that summary of what has been pushed so far I still think it's you for scum.

The only thing that still keeps making me hesitant is that damn godfather theory. Because technically it could apply to either of you. So now I have to base it on both of your actions and interactions in this game.

So I would advise you present that case, it's the reason I asked you to a few days ago.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Minions, in that case, give me what your main concerns are so I can pay special attention to addressing them. I currently don't see what in your case hasn't been addressed multiple times.

[Minions]

The main issue is the shift in mindset you seem to do.

A prime example even toDay where you weren't bothered about presenting any sort of case to sway my opinion on toog, even though you knew my thoughts from the previous day about you, and now suddenly you are all for doing some legwork.
And that only seemed to come when I had stopped putting the work in.

The only case I've seen on toog after the analysis to negate his investigation result is the godfather role. That relies on me ignoring the issues I had with you and going against the investigation.

Then there is the 'I should have trusted my town reads' line you gave us toDay, which kind of works against your claim that you townread to find scum. You can't claim you don't need to scum hunt when you PoE off your townreads when you clearly don't stay faithful to your townreads.

Like I said, your mindset feels slippery, like you adapt to fit the scenario and it's showing by the heavy inconsistency.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

The reason I didn't do any "legwork" and scan through Toog's entire ISO was that I felt that based on the points I brought forth, it should be obvious that Toog is scum. This is based just on the fact that a GF needs to be in the game. It does require you to go against your investigation but given what I showed in 1927, I don't see any plausible scenario in which we don't have a GF. You also don't seem to deny that if we have a GF, Toog is far more likely to be it.

I haven't stayed faithful to my townreads precisely because of the way this game has been structured and is my primary frustration with this game: We have a role (GF) which messes up reads. If Toog wasn't investigated innocent, I wouldn't have had a strong enough townread on him to outweigh my townreads on Titus and Molla. POE would have led to him.

Town mindsets aren't static. If anything, scum mindsets are static and consistent. Town change their minds based on new information being presented constantly. Scum don't need to change their minds because they are not actually hunting for scum. They can simply pick a position and stick to it. That way, they can appear consistent. Town mindsets are fluid. "Slippery" is rather a negative way to describe it but the core issue I am trying to point out is that change of reads and opinions isn't scummy. Positions that are seemingly contradictory to earlier positions aren't indicative of scum. You are correct in your evaluation that my positions have changed wildly, that I have speculated on possibilities far more than Toogeloo has, that I've changed my mind more readily, more often, and more strongly. I agree with that assessment. I think the mistake is that you are attributing all of these as scum behaviors which just isn't the case. All of these make far more sense from a town mindset. Pointing out something that I've said a few days ago and showing how it contradicts what I am saying now is quite frankly absurd. The information I had then is not the same as the information I have now. As such my opinions will not be the same. You can't catch scum through "contradictions" since the positions of townies will often be seemingly contradictory.

[Minions]

I really don't know anymore. This is making my head hurt because in lylo of all places you are requiring me to trust in the setup explannation, that it is definitely toog and that he outside of that has played scummier than you... And that last one hinges on your arguement that a town mindset is more likely to be inconsistent than a scum one...

But the arguement you present on that does make sense.

I'm going to sleep on this, you may have saved this for us f16 if you are town.

[Minions]

Toogeloo, f16 has given a very compelling case. I have concerns that you have been so quiet, with 6 days left you might want to respond. At present f16 has shown a very town arguement (finally) but to follow that path is to assume you godfather...

Plausible case since you requested investigation.

[Voidedmafia]

Toog has been prodded.

[Toogeloo]

What case, that he has changed his mind, thus he must be town? I've done that as well. I voted out BBmolla, my strongest town read the entirety of the game.

What F-16 hasn't done is give any case regarding why I am scum. He continues to fear monger you into believing a godfather must be in the setup despite me showing reasons why one doesn't need to be.

ISO me. According to about a half a dozen players this game, I've made town tells of not knowing how many scum there are, claiming Vanilla like 3 or 4 pages into Day 1, and thinking Iceguy was town after the flip,


What about these two posts by F-16 less than 5 posts apart...

(though technically, I was the first person to suggest this was an all Vanilla game

^ Town as fuck.

It is Molla after all.

Toog obviously. I don't see Minions as scum after all that analysis and meticulously detailed way of trying to figure out which of us is scum. Toog will never vote Minions. They don't need to do this. They would just lynch me, then you, or the other way around and take the game.

Apparently I am Town as fuck, but still scum should BBmolla flip town.


F-16 is throwing appeals at you, desperate to try to get you to vote me. He is not making a case on me to try and show way that I am scum outside of godfather. He is playing a scum game to pander to you.


I'm quiet because I am done repeating myself. I've essentially said the same thing 10 different ways today.

[Minions]

Thankyou toog, that's what I needed to hear. I had forgotten the u-turn on you he made.

I understand you don't want to repeat yourself, but all I have is waiting time here and if we are really about to see the next 6 days play out like this f16 by actually posting comments will get in my head eventually.

I am ready to vote f16, which I know will mean he will refuse to put me up as HoH but I won't lie just to force the nomination through.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Minions, I am not sure how many heads are posting or discussing right now but it seems like every post, you are coming up with a new opinion, so I am lost as to whose opinion is what.

I provided reasoning why a GF must be in the game. At this point, we should be in auto-win right now by lynching Toog so I am not really sure what is the holdup. Please don't get stuck up on not voting Toog. Losing this game because the GF got investigated inno is going to leave a bad taste in my mouth about the game, about the mod, about the players, about me, etc. It doesn't matter though since I gave you the exact reasoning why this setup would be impossible without a GF. Toog has been unable to counter. He merely throws around words like "fear mongering" which for some reason you are buying into.

The "towntells" that Toog claims he made can easily be faked and are therefore null.

Toog is also being hypocritical. He claims that he changing his mind on Molla is townish whereas me changing my mind on Toog is scummy. Changing your mind isn't a scumtell - but Toog's claim of saying it is a scumtell for me while showing where he himself did it?

Toog was my next suspect after Molla. He took my quote out of context.

Look at the post before it:

F-16, I get lynched and flip town. Who is scum.

and my response:

Toog obviously. I don't see Minions as scum after all that analysis and meticulously detailed way of trying to figure out which of us is scum. Toog will never vote Minions. They don't need to do this. They would just lynch me, then you, or the other way around and take the game.

Molla was asking me hypothetical questions to which I was responding. My suspicion of Molla had not alleviated at that point. It was merely a scenario where Molla had already flipped town. Toog took it completely out of context to paint my as scummy. Sneaky Toog.

And yeah, I am not going to lose this game for town because I am too lazy to make a case. If we lose, it'll be because I've tried everything I could from my side, and extended every effort I could to win the game, but you still couldn't get over the fact that the person you investigated inno is the GF. (And yes, I am asking you to assume him GF because the setup would never work otherwise). If that means that you want a "case" with bullet points, quotes and links meticulously explaining why Toog is scum, then that is what I will do.

[Minions]

Just me f16. And the reason for the flip flopping is simply because you both make good arguements and one if you is selling me a lie.

Forgive me for not sharing your 'it's obvious who's scum' thought process because I'm piggy in the middle if two very good players, one of whom will get much respect from me for their scum game whether I find them or not.

I want to believe you f16 because your arguement has seemed the most frustrated (which would suggest town) whereas toog at times has felt like on autopilot. But given my leaning going into this day that's as expected because you f16 have had to fight to turn my view whereas toog merely had had to ensure I still think the same way.

I'm gonna reread the before and after of those posts from you f16. And if as you say it's taken out of context that would suggest scum tactics to sell a lie.

We have time, I will make sure I get this call right.

This is why I wish I was actually in a functioning hydra at this point. All this rests on my shoulders

[Toogeloo]

It doesn't matter though since I gave you the exact reasoning why this setup would be impossible without a GF. Toog has been unable to counter.

Here we have him pushing Godfather (as we already knew he would) balance with a Town Cop. Which I would agree with, if you were a real Cop. You are Aesthetic and limited to two use, and had we not utilized your power through organization prior to you using it, it's possible you could have scanned someone who was going to get lynched anyways. You are a very, very, weak cop. Godfather does not need to be in this setup to balance your form of Cop. But interestingly he does say that you (Minions) need to decide which of us is the godfather (not scum, but godfather), which also make me wonder why he would say this several days prior:

Toog is also being hypocritical. He claims that he changing his mind on Molla is townish whereas me changing my mind on Toog is scummy. Changing your mind isn't a scumtell - but Toog's claim of saying it is a scumtell for me while showing where he himself did it?

No, I was showing you that your argument is flawed. You stated you are town because you flipped on your town reads based on new information. I did the exact same thing, so wouldn't that make me town as well?

And yeah, I am not going to lose this game for town because I am too lazy to make a case. If we lose, it'll be because I've tried everything I could from my side, and extended every effort I could to win the game, but you still couldn't get over the fact that the person you investigated inno is the GF. (And yes, I am asking you to assume him GF because the setup would never work otherwise). If that means that you want a "case" with bullet points, quotes and links meticulously explaining why Toog is scum, then that is what I will do.

Why do you need Minions' blessing to make a scum case on me? Why would wait this long to even state you would make a case if Minions wants you to? (Hint he DID ask you to).

[Toogeloo]

Furthermore, F-16 keeps pushing the "2 confirmed townies via the cop" thing. The odds of that happening were fairly low. As it is now, only one player was scanned innocent and the other scanned guilty. And since you don't directly get the results yourself, he is making the assumption that the HoH in play is also town and telling the truth which is an impossible assumption. Add to the fact that you could have wasted your scans early on people who might have gotten lynched anyways, or someone who was cleared was still a possibility of being shot adds to the extremely limited scope of your role. I'm fairly certain that the mod didn't expect town to leash your cop scans before you used them.

[Toogeloo]

It has got to be Toog. Seriously, I am town.

Starts with me.

So, with 3 kills, how does a 2X cop make any sense? Only with there being a GF. I am still convinced that you are town, BBMolla. The scum are among Toog and Minions but I am not sure who it is.

This one is actually kind of funny on the relook. He's convinced there must be a godfather, so why does he even list Minions as possible scum since his role is the cop role?

The fact that scum didn't kill Minions shows that either 1) Minions is scum, or 2) Scum weren't afraid of Minion's abilities. Both point towards one of Toog/Minions being scum. I lean towards Minons because the decision to investigate Toog didn't come from scum at all. I think it is too much of a co-incidence to investigate the GF. Rather, I believe that the abilities that scum have are the abilities that Minions has been given.

Believes there is a Godfather for balance to the Cop, then swings the other direction to Scum Cop (only PR in the entire game being Aesthetic Scum Cop? Really?)

I am actually pretty sure it is Minions at this point and Bulbazak is double-bussing. Let's vote toog, have him put up Minions and one of me/Molla.

Now fully committed to Minions.

While I am pretty sure both Toog and BBMolla are town, I'd rather Toog be made HoH. I trust BBMolla more in LYLO situations.

Implies that if Minions is lynched we would be in LyLo. F-16 vs. BBmolla vs. Toogs would have been a far easier time for F-16 than this current situation.
(Next post is rather long, but basically just him trying to counter Minions' points and further push his case that Minions is scum.)

Here are the possibilities:
1) Make Minions HoH: Minions puts up BBMolla and F-16. Toog votes F-16
2) Make BBMolla HoH: BBMolla puts up Minions and F-16. Toog votes F-16
3) Make Toog HoH: Toog puts up BBMolla and F-16. Minions votes F-16
4) Make F-16 HoH: F-16 puts up Toog and Minions. BBMolla votes Minions?

The only way to get Minions lynched is to vote me HoH. I suggest that is what we do. Every other possibility ends up with a town lynch.

I actually thought this was a joke post when I first read it because he should have known there was zero chance of him being made HoH.

If Toog is town, we pretty much lost this game since you are going to vote for me first, and then BBMolla in LYLO. But at least, if we lose that way, I'll find Voided at endgame and kick him for making a scum cop.

I don't believe Molla is scum. None of his behavior makes sense as scum. He is a townread of mine. You are being too complacent about the roles and setup and doing no actual scumhunting.

The hypocrisy.
(Calls for V/LA, then cancels it a few days later).

This is true though. He never does telegraph his scumreads on Bulbazak and Gnomeo. They appear out of nowhere completely.

At this point it's evident that Minions and I are solid, so this is where he starts to turn his "BBmolla is obvtown," into:

I no longer think Minions is scum. I think it is between BBMolla and Toogeloo. I was wondering why Molla wouldn't kill you guys if he was scum but there is always the chance that Molla himself is the GF. Your case convinced me mostly. I know you said you had a town lean but BBMolla did throw out those scum suspects out of nowhere. It was too good to be true. He was too sure in those reads. It matches his other games where he bussed his scumteam pretty closely. I still don't get why he would kill Imperium though and it is something I'll have to look into.

Complete 180. Minions town, BBmolla scum (Toog still in the middle). Note that Minions said town lean on molla, but then F-16 starts to sow the doubt on it to try and turn it into a much stronger scum read. (Minions then eventually says he's starting to think F-16 is town after this).

And why would you do that when my eviction today guarantees that you get evicted tomorrow? You would need me on your side to help you lynch the cop/conftown, and then, the remaining player would lynch me.

This could almost be the words right out of molla's mouth since it's exactly what F-16 was doing at the beginning of the day.
(Several posts badgering molla about his Bulba read).
Calls me town as fuck, then says that if molla isn't scum I must be because he doesn't feel like Minions can be scum after the meticulous reading. Hammer drops, molla is lynched, I say I don't believe there is a scum cop, then F-16 opens his first post of the day saying he doesn't believe there would be a Scum Cop either, and if there is a Scum Cop, then he's going be pissed at voided. Apparently Minions is no longer town because of his meticulous reading, but rather because there can not be a Scum Cop. I think I end up dictating his day by posting first. He sees that there is no way I am going to evict Minions, so he has to do the exact same thing back at me since he has no shot of getting Minions evicted.


You have been hardcore pandering to the people with the power to evict for the last 2 days now. Molla was a strong leader of town and universally believed to be town by pretty much everyone, so that's where you bet all your cards on at the start of yesterday. Minions and I made you have to pull a full reversal. Before that, you were on cruise control, going with the flow of the mob mentality and coasting on the fact that you had just claimed a guilty on Bulba and constantly reminding people how bad it would be for scum to bus their scum buddy in that situation. You haven't made any cases on anyone, but rather pushed setup spec on anyone who might listen and plant that seed of paranoia into their brains.

You are playing the very definition of standard endgame scum play.

Game
Set
Match

[Voidedmafia]

Minoins and F-16 have been prodded. (expired on 2013-11-26 14:23:15)

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

4 more days left. I'm busy with classes but I'll have time during the break. I am assuming the deadline runs out on Friday. I'll certainly be free Wednesday evening to put up the case so Toog can respond with a rebuttal before letting the deadline expire.

@ Minions, it should obvious at this point that I am not going to cut short the day by voting you. I would have done the same even if I was scum so it is non-alignment indicative. As town, I want us to win. I don't want to let down all the townies that are dead now by giving up. I won't be playing against the interests of the town. I am required to play to win. It is part of the rules of the game. Giving up isn't. So, I am going to give it the best shot I can. Deadline will come. The day will end, and you gotta make your decision.

[Minions]

If it's any comfort f16 I'm not as sure as I was, but toogs case back is a good one. I concern things are being taken out of context to sell a lie but then before I can determine that the counter arguement seems to plug the gap.

It will be a four day run then cos I'm not about to confirm I will definitely vote for toog but al the same time I havent completely ruled it out.

Yes that's a fence sit right now, but as you keep pointing out I have a win con and therefore a duty to all those who shouldn't have died that has got us here.

I still lean towards f16 though, the 'it's obvious' thing is starting to get under my skin cos it feels like you are calling me stupid.
You don't seem to realise that I have a tough decision in front of me, either that or you think mild bullying will turn my opinion.

[Toogeloo]

Blatant prod dodge is blatant.

I eagerly await F-16's case.

[Minions]

Also gonna take the opportunity to ptap.

[Minions]

Bump this thread to see if the other two return...

[Toogeloo]

I'm here. Still waiting.

[Toogeloo]

Deadline in 13 hours. I won't be responding to any case F-16 may or may not put up at this point. I got bed and things to do tomorrow. See you all in end game.