A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Tammy]

The only thing I didnt like about their play was not voting SpyreX.

How about them completely avoiding Quadz too? After being present on virtually every major town wagon D1 and D2 (ooba, Thor, SafetyDance, Amrun), Borden was nowhere to be found on either of the two flipped scum.

I really see your point here, but Empire loves bussing. Like I would expect if there was a weak member of his team, he would have bussed him like crazy. That wouldn't apply to Spyrex, but it would apply to quadz. If he's on a team of strong players, and he's the weak one, he'd want to be the bussed one. So, I'd be really surprised if he was Chaos.

The scum have only had two successful kills in six nights. Are you really suggesting that Empire is town because he didn't bus Quadz when the scum had just lost what everyone agrees is a really strong member and they were 1/3 on night kills? Just because he loves to do it so much?

And again, this analysis ignores marble's potential impact on Empire's game and it's seriously starting to bother me. What does he like to do as scum?

I didn't say Empire's town because he likes to bus. That's only part of my reasoning. Most of it is based on his interaction with me day one. My point about bussing is merely to counter your point about him not being on a quadz/spyrex lynch.

Marble needs to show up; I'm not going to debate you there.

D4 is more of the same.

Borden didn't vote the entire fucking day four. Not once. How is that even possible?!?!

- Des

Oh, I forgot to address this. Why do you bring this up and also bring up Wingate? Empire has a habit of going full days without voting; he's very similar to me in that regard. I'm pretty sure if you go back to Wingate you'll see him not voting for entire days.

The hydra is comprised of more than just Empire and there was way too much going on on day four to justify not voting even once. I don't think the context there and in Wingate are really comparable.

- Des

Then why did you bring up Wingate in relation to Empire? You can't bring up something and then when something uses that exact game to counter your point, go it doesn't stand.

Marble's barely been posting. He definitely needs to, but Empire has been the driving force behind that hydra for the majority of the game, and therefore, Empire's playstyle absolutely plays a part in this discussion.

[Tammy]

But why elle? Do you really see her - coming in to the thread the day after SpyreX was lynched and declaring that we need to kill her?

That's quite taken out of context... you don't mention it had to do with her being a permanent blocker on Tierce...

She did it on the same line. Do you really think a scum vanillizer would offer to sacrifice herself when the consequence is, she thinks, that I'll be BP for at least two more Nights,

and

do so the Day after scum got lynched, plus doing so in line with what she had been posting before SpyreX's lynch?

Why wouldn't she have seamlessly reversed tracks on her questioning her Townreads about me post SpyreX lynch? Why do we even know she was working her way up to offering herself up for lynch? It's because she's genuine about it. She's Town (and even if it's multiscum she's Town, she wouldn't ever do that for someone who might not even be Town!), there's no way around it.

I think you're giving elle too little credit here. Why wouldn't she have done what she did? Her stocks were dropping that day, and maybe she didn't have a big wagon on her when she claimed but there were a lot of people suspecting her. Her claim near but damn saved her because scum just wouldn't do what she did. What gets it for me is her lack of doing anything at all in this game. Oh she was super cute in her role in getting Thor lynched day one, in which she rolled dice and voted based on heh here or there, but she also claims that you were the biggest scum read she had in night one after not actually discussing you all of day one. Then not discussing you at all day two. Or day three. But then coming out day four with the claim on you when people were discussing being suspicious of her AND when there was a potential outside reference to her blocking you. So if she jumps out and says she's the one responsible, she looks good. Also, she claims (though I'll have to look back) that Thor's mislynch made her get less motivated in the game, well then why did she feel super great about vanilla-izing you? Someone one of her biggest town reads was town reading at that point? Why did she feel good just dancing through the thread asking to lynch Spyrex? And why did Spyrex's correct scum lynch not shake her out of her dark Thor mislynch slump?

[Titus]

Ugh... logic and my gut are conflicting.

Des's case makes sense. Nothing conflicts with that case. Yet, my gut says that Tammy should be the best at reading Empirehead given she has the best knowledge of him and knows about what the hell the singing thing is.

[Tammy]

I've been letting a little crazy in lately that has me believing the scum team might gain something from

Hammering

... SpyreX being the original lamb, and Alfred ninja-ing one with that GnR speedlynch.

I kind of want to think they are building the ladder/chain of Chaos. Sure, SpyreX's claim fit in with his role, but this is so tempting a concept--six scum needing certain events to gain abilities.

And...rabbit hole.

[Tammy]

I've been letting a little crazy in lately that has me believing the scum team might gain something from

Hammering

... SpyreX being the original lamb, and Alfred ninja-ing one with that GnR speedlynch.

I kind of want to think they are building the ladder/chain of Chaos. Sure, SpyreX's claim fit in with his role, but this is so tempting a concept--six scum needing certain events to gain abilities.

The ladder of Chaos sounds so elegant\nice! I don't think it's there this game but it's fun speculating what you would give them as a mod to increase 'Chaos' in the game - I like "make sure every player in the game is voted on one single day."

Let's not get down that rabbit hole, okay?

TOO LATE.

[Messiah Complex]

My point is that the circumstances surrounding Empire's town energy depleting in Wingate and here are not comparable. You had already lynched both scum and it took what, four days of paranoia before you lynched Mara and Qwints?

As soon as this game started hitting it's groove and we started lynching scum, Empire vanished. That doesn't sound like the Empire I know that loves to be town and was universally townread in the early game. And Marble struck me as someone who enjoys playing town (and who talked about deliberately playing in such a way as to not get killed N1 in the Wingate dead QT) as well.

Empire posting more =/= Empire being the driving force behind the hydra. It means he's the front man. Empire's playstyle definitely plays a part, but I feel like Marble's potential influence on Empire's game is being ignored.

Who are you looking at today?

- Des

[Benmage]

Tammy, what was the last game you saw Empire as scum as? What is his scum game like?

Who are your top 3 scum?

[Tammy]

My point is that the circumstances surrounding Empire's town energy depleting in Wingate and here are not comparable. You had already lynched both scum and it took what, four days of paranoia before you lynched Mara and Qwints?[/quotes]

You mean with Empire arguing with me from early day one about qwints' scumminess? Sure his pushing that I was absolutely wrong was a point.

As soon as this game started hitting it's groove and we started lynching scum, Empire vanished. That doesn't sound like the Empire I know that loves to be town and was universally townread in the early game. And Marble struck me as someone who enjoys playing town (and who talked about deliberately playing in such a way as to not get killed N1 in the Wingate dead QT) as well.

Empire posting more =/= Empire being the driving force behind the hydra. It means he's the front man. Empire's playstyle definitely plays a part, but I feel like Marble's potential influence on Empire's game is being ignored.

Who are you looking at today?

- Des

I think you are arguing relativity here that doesn't necessarily apply. Empire wouldn't disappear because his scum-pals did. (This reminds me of the argument used against me in Mafia-Maiden last summer when I pushed scum for like three days in a row and then got busy and dipped out and it was viewed as me feeling disheartened because my scum team was dismantling).

Empire posting more does mean the driving force of the hydra. Empire has been changing his playstyle, and unfortunately he's been changing it to be more opaque for some reason than is usual which makes it a little unnatural for him, but Marble is the better scum player.

All this is to say, I'm worried about that hydra, but the reasoning you've brought forward isn't persuasive because they aren't alignment indicative.

I don't know who I'm looking at today. I suspect almost everyone left here.

[Tammy]

Faraday - Please fix my quote tags

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh - I agree with you that dueling the Goat wasn't the most inspired idea but neither was vigging Katsuki >_>

See the difference is if he'd stated intention to do it I would have been like NO GOD NO PLEASE NO and the only answer to vigging katsuki was 'k'
also can we not talk about wingate it is very triggering for me
I'm not morally opposed to an elle lynch btw but etc

[Benmage]

Tammy,
A) my questions.
B) Why do you worry about that hydra?

[Tammy]

I've been letting a little crazy in lately that has me believing the scum team might gain something from

Hammering

... SpyreX being the original lamb, and Alfred ninja-ing one with that GnR speedlynch.

I kind of want to think they are building the ladder/chain of Chaos. Sure, SpyreX's claim fit in with his role, but this is so tempting a concept--six scum needing certain events to gain abilities.

I still think there's gotta be a 3rd party in there. 6 person scum team, with daytalk(hello faraday game).. Its a lot. We'd still be against 4 scum! Can you name a 4 man scum-team? I can't.

But if it was 5 from the get-go (and as we've seen lots of town power even if weakish)... scum could gain varying weak abilities. 1 shot ---- Tracker/RB/Doc/Watcher/Rolecop etc etc.

Anyways kinda a tangent not worth over-pursuing atm.

My lynch to win path:

Alfred Borden (Empire/Llamarble)
Garuk Relentless (Natarisha/MafiaSSK)
The Alchemist
Shadoweh
Messiah Complex (Desperado/Formerfish)
SafetyDance
elleheathen
kanyeknowsbest
Cephrir
ooba
Tammy
Tierce
Titus
Nautilius (Nacho/Ellibereth)
Benmage

I'm totally offended I'm like 4th on your town list.

I totally agree with you on there being third parties.

And on your most recent request, I've got some things to catch up on and do and then I'll describe Empire's scum game to you, but nacho linked his most recent scum game earlier when he was giving his reason for why he thought empire was town, but =19826&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go]here it is

I don't know who my top three scum are. I hate you all. It's day 7 and almost all of you have to be scum and you have to hang.

[Tammy]

Well that sucks...here is empire last scum iso:

forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=31636&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select[]=19826&user_select[]=0&user_select[]=0&user_sort=Go

[Tammy]

Like wtf...it's in Little Italy. We're on a boat. Pitoli's game.

Patience is a virtue Benmage.

[Titus]

D1 - Thor hammered by PNJ
N1 - No kill
D2 - Amrun hammered by Spyrex
N2 - Macmollie killed
D3 - Spyrex hammered by Tierce
N3 - No kill
D4 - Quadz hammered by Goat on a Raft
N4 - Katsuki killed by Shadoweh
D5 - PNJ hammered by Borden
N5 - No kill
D6 - Goat on a Raft hammered by Borden
N6 - AGar killed

Guess who never got a chance to check in D6 to say who he blocked N5 and then got murdered the next night even though he wasn't in town block?

Borden is scum.

- Des

Tammy how is this not alignment indicative?

[Tammy]

Tammy, how do you mean he targeted you? Would it do something to shake the confidence of Desperado's theory that Empire is scum due to the various blocking/no kills and spike in activity? Can you explain the dual hammer coming from a town perspective?

I really don't like how Alchemist has just vanished most of today.

He said he targetted me and I believe him.

I don't think the Desperado's reasoning for Empire being scum is compelling. I'm worried about that slot, but anyone will have to come up with things that I would expect for him as town.

I can't explain the dual hammer as town motivated because it's annoying as hell and not something I'd expect from Empire, not sure about Marble.

I'm still town-reading Alchemist based on day one and our neighborhood qt, plus I only think that one of alchemist, you or empire could be scum.

[Tammy]

I feel pretty confident that the Alchemist and Titus are not on the same team at all.

[Titus]

I am going to cool off and read this again tomorrow. There are quite a few people who seem convinced that Empire is town and no one seemed to be convinced that Alchemist is town. That is usually an indication that I'm making a mistake here.

[Tammy]

unless Titus was trying to pull a dumb tell, but it doesn't feel that way.

[Tammy]

Alfred Borden (Empire/Llamarble) - Lean Town, his latest posts have greatly improved.

As for your comment SafetyDance, fuck you. I have been the earliest pusher of AB although I didn't have a case like Desperado's.

Cephrir picked it up, I believe he even talked to you about it. Goldfish memory ftl

[Titus]

That is still being taken out of context. I was an early pusher today. Obviously not in long term as I wasn't an early pusher of anything given I wasn't here early.

[Cephrir]

Dahling, if I was trying to assign scum motivation to you, I'd be voting you. If you don't have a decent

reason

that explains why elle would do what she did as scum, you can very well keep your superficial opinion in your pants. You spoke up, I'm daring you to either challenge my views on the matter with actual arguments, or go back to your corner and your "she should eventually die" thoughts.

Yes, that's something I would have to do if I was asserting that elle is scum. Good thing I never did that!

First of all, the "Keep up the good work!" is at best filler language or is an AtE. Now answer the question, what was inconsistent about the two posts?

Context in those two. I was an early pusher TODAY. Jeezus.

That's a completely different meaning given that people were, IIRC, starting to push him yesterday- trying to take credit where it's not due? Probably not but like come on, you have no right to get upset about this.

That is still being taken out of context. I was an early pusher today. Obviously not in long term as I wasn't an early pusher of anything given I wasn't here early.

Out of context? That's just not true. People are taking *exactly what you said*, you just don't like it because they aren't including your after-the-fact errata.

[kanyeknowsbest]

pro ddodge

[Titus]

Explaing context is not after the fact errata. It is impossible to put all context into a post. That would require a) no pronoun usage at the start of a post b) constantly reaffirming every read I have, since hey context is now errata, and c) quoting everything anyone ever said. Your argument is ridiculous abd you are the only one pushing that after I explained. Quit tunnelling me and focus on what is happening.

VOTE: Alchemist

I am willing to give Tammy and ooba a chance to show AB is town given my other major scum wagon is gaining steam.

[Benmage]

The whole they were good D1 crap.. they'll come in and be good.. No shit. Its Empire and Llamarable.. you don't think they could dangle shiny coins in front of you rednecks to go ooo ahhh at and all go yep yep town town.. like WTF are u expecting them to come in an do? Claim scum.

This is fucking pathetic.