Marketplace Mafia III - Game Over

[BBmolla]

It's also practically a copy of pie's post on him from the previous page

[Lost Butterfly]

I’m against a mass claim unless I get a pretty good reason why we should mass claim. It just seems like fishing to me. LB also needs to explain what they did with the info they already had. D1 or D2 they were asking for claims and said they’d explain later so they can either explain or link me to where they already explained.

Relevant.

I think we should massclaim because we're a day away from LYLO, traditional scumhunting is failing us, and everyone knows where the power roles are concentrated, anyway. And I think in a set-up this complex, at least one person is guaranteed to mess up their claim somewhere. My

only

best skill as a scumhunter is catching people in role contradictions and scumslips. And that's leaving aside roles like Market Analyst or Coroner that could do all sorts of delicious things with the results.

Oddly, though, I think I

like

Nero's refusal to massclaim. This probably makes me a terrible person.

On that note, Voided, Nero, Espeonage, and ProHawk, who did you send money last night? And ProHawk, who did you send money on N3?

Did you actually like Nero reaction to mass claim, or was that you trying to pull the wagon off him?

I see no reason why he would complain about it at this point because it's pretty much the only way we will be able to pull this game out of our asses, along with a reformed plan. Empire is mostly out of the picture at this point because life, but he thought that a strong tool would be a plan where people can be held responsible since the trust system clearly went to shit. Natirasha and cabd setup speculation dance gives us a pretty good idea what to expect from the scumteam, and yes, some things will get fucked up if we put all of our cards down on the table, but we should be able to outpace scum for now.

Re: the bolded, it was sort of a mix of both. Basically, I felt stressed and paralyzed all day, because I had no idea what to do with the information I had, and I didn't like any of the counterwagons to Nero. I was halfheartedly defending him because of my result (and if I'm being completely honest, part of me had the self-serving fear no one would believe me tomorrow if I'd let him get lynched without saying

anything

), but I was probably inclined to read his post more positively because of my result. What I liked there was more just the prickly, paranoid, "Nope, I'm not claiming!" As in, he wasn't eager to placate me, I guess.

I still think we should have massclaimed today, but there's an extreme amount of resistance to it. It's kind of irritating, because no one is following the plan anymore. morph's original plan meant everyone knew where the money was concentrated, but the second variant meant the people who are supposed to send money were 1) sort of arbitrarily chosen, and 2) going, "well, I don't want to follow it, so nyah!"

What I'm thinking now is something like "everyone sends $50 to one of three or four players." This way, the money is still not concentrated all in one basket, and it's less predictable as to who has what roles. BUT the townier players have more buying power. (But the problem with this is that it doesn't keep scum poor. We could get around it by having a tier of top suspects we want to keep completely bankrupt.)

[pieguyn]

let me do this first

@Voided:

did you transfer to me or Garuda on N4?

[pieguyn]

*N3

[Lost Butterfly]

I feel like there's something holding me back from voting everyone in my tier 1, particularly the latter two. Maybe it's someone like MuffinMan.

Why muffin?

Part burden of proficiency and hearing horror stories about his scum play, part PoE, part that some stuff he's done has triggered bells. For example, some of his arguments with Nero felt like trying to score points--in particular, the hypocrisy of his stance on Nero's wagon development compared to Voided's. (Rather than be disingenuous, just admit that

both

wagons have actually been pretty similar to each other, but none of this has any bearing on their alignments!) And I really don't like how he responded to Espeonage's attack yesterday--it just felt overdefensive and like he was trying to undermine and belittle Espeonage.

There's a lot that's really townish in his play. (He comes across as passionate and relaxed in his posts, and has done a lot that looks like proactive scumhunting. And today, I've liked his play a lot better, particularly his interactions with pie. I actually tend to think it's a towntell for someone to be utterly convinced they look town and this is nothing like their scum play.) Also, I checked out the games morph linked to. He actually IS much less abrasive and more formal in the scum games, although he does get nasty in the second one near the end. That's why he's only Tier 2. But there's enough doubt in my mind that I worry he's someone I might let slip through the cracks.

And why muffin for those two specifically?

Are our wires getting crossed here, or was that a typo? It has nothing to do with Muffin. I just meant something was holding me back from voting everyone in my top tier, particularly baldeagle and...

...

...

...actually, fuck it!

VOTE: Ghostly Penguin

Hey, penguin_alien. I know you've been posting everywhere onsite

except

for this game. I'd like you and Ghostlin to explain to me why scum!Molla. Also, would you be scumreading him if he'd claimed different advertisements? Finally, what's your current read on Nero?

[Lost Butterfly]

EBWOP: I'd like you and Ghostlin to explain to me why scum!Molla

decided to claim the advertisements he did rather than only the protown ones

.

[Lost Butterfly]

look, here's the thing, pieguy. you're seeing what you want to see in my play because you're paranoid about me. OK. i don't mind. you just lost a game vs me and you don't want it to happen again. but i'm not scum here and your meta analysis on me is so flawed it's not funny because you're ignoring things you want to ignore and seeing things you want to see. and the thing is, you're basing this entirely on one scum game from me that started way after morph had metadived me here, where i was scum against them as town and i needed to change things up slightly or risk them seeing right through me. and here's the thing; they almost did see right through me in that game. but they were consistently reading me as town here after the metadive. know why? because i was trying to fake my towngame in imperishable night and they probably knew that was the case there, but it didn't affect their read on me in this game because this is, undoubtedly, my town game.

For the record, though, I'm Nthing your Most Cunning Manipulator nom if you said this as scum.

[pieguyn]

Part burden of proficiency and hearing horror stories about his scum play, part PoE, part that some stuff he's done has triggered bells.

I've heard similar stories. if it makes you any feel better about his scum play, we in touhou would have won against scum-him if we had any way of knowing the game was LYLO a day earlier than it was supposed to be o/

Hey, penguin_alien. I know you've been posting everywhere onsite except for this game

so I'm not the only one who was thinking this ok

did you notice Esp was doing the same thing? o.o

LB get the fuck out of my head @_@ I was literally thinking about that same shit and how it made me stop scumreading him (for now). it makes so much sense that if he planned this shit out as scum I'm going to feel outright trolled and pissed off >_<

[Lost Butterfly]

did you notice Esp was doing the same thing? o.o

Not until you'd mentioned it earlier. I just noticed the p_a thing now because I've seen posts of hers elsewhere, and that's what tipped me toward voting them.

And to be fair, that Muffin quote stood out for me

because

I was rereading your exchange and saw you'd quoted it. So I'm not exactly a mind-reader.

[Lost Butterfly]

I'm off to bed now, but Ghostly Penguin, for the fifteenth time, please tell us who you transferred your money to on N2 (and how

much

you transferred). This late in the game, the information is useless for rolefishing.

[Quilford]

Yeah can confirm hydrapassword not working. Contacting admins.

[zMuffinMan]

But Sean got lynched, Voided didn't.

you're a sharp one. i see nothing gets past you

These statements are

no, the are not (and since voided seems to have no problem interpreting my message, i'm guessing the problem in our communication is something on your end and not mine), but i've completely lost interest in pursuing this line of conversation with you because you keep trying to make it an argument about semantics rather than actually making a point or addressing any of the questions i'm asking in any sort of substantive way. voided's 3866 hit the nail on the head so fucking hard it's not funny

Silly Muffin pretending like there's a decent reason to suspect me

what counts as a "decent" reason? because i've given plenty of reasons i think you're scum based on the way you've approached this game. for example, even apart from the way you're arguing with me, the way you've come about your reads is something i've gone over and over. there's no genuine intent to scum hunt in your posts. there's no genuine attempt at discerning my alignment in your posts.

nero seems like he could very easily be a mislynch and I wanna be careful

OK. how much of my conversation with nero have you been following? what's it going to take to change your mind about this? has anything about nero looked town to you?

every time I read a Nero post lately, I think "holy shit. they've finally done it. they have created the Deep Blue of the mafia world! Can't play scum for shit, though."

iawtp

Whoever has Messenger, come forward.

i think nati claimed it somewhere? i remember them talking about it at some point, i think

Part burden of proficiency

wat. if nero is scum, then that pretty much means i've been pushing for scum lynches since D2, no?

the hypocrisy of his stance on Nero's wagon development compared to Voided's

no. this is just wrong. my original point about the nero wagon was that the resistance to the nero wagon came from people who were ignoring the arguments for nero being scum in favour of calling him town purely for "meta" reasons. this was the issue when i talked about the "resistance" to nero's wagon, and you should know this because i remember you specifically questioning me about it.

yeah, the voided wagon never reaching lynch threshold may share some similarities to the nero wagon, but so what?

I really don't like how he responded to Espeonage's attack yesterday--it just felt overdefensive and like he was trying to undermine and belittle Espeonage

that wasn't really my intent at all. i'm not even sure how much of the game espeonage has actually read and it feels like every time i ask him to elaborate on his reads (particularly his scum read on me and his town read on nero), the responses i'm getting are lacklustre. was hoping he'd put a bit more effort into expanding on his reads today, but so far no such luck.

[zMuffinMan]

ok, nm. they just said they went for messenger but never actually claimed to have it i think

[Magua]

Vote Count 5.14

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Nero Cain (4): Lord Mhork, Garuda, zMuffinMan, VoidedMafia
BBmolla (3): Ghostly Penguin, Harakiri, 1baldeagle1
uʍop ǝpısdn (2): ProHawk, Espeonage
zMuffinMan (1): Nero Cain
1baldeagle1 (1): pieguyn
Ghostly Penguin (1): Lost Butterfly

Not Voting (2): BBmolla, uʍop ǝpısdn

Deadline for Day 5 is Thursday, December 5th, at 4:00pm EST (site time).
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2013-12-05 16:00:00)

Deadline for Day 5 is Friday, December 6th, at 4:00pm EST (site time).
Countdown to deadline:

(expired on 2013-12-06 16:00:00)

24 hours added to the deadline to account for Thanksgiving.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I have no idea where Ghostlin is; he hasn't posted in our hydra QT for five days. He usually cycles back eventually.

Seeing as the transferee was killed last night, it makes little difference to share that we sent $165 to PV on N2. We advertised some stuff too and held onto a token amount of money mostly because we could.

Yes, I've been posting elsewhere and not here because I prefer to be on the same page with a hydra partner to reduce the number of voices for people to sort through in a game of this size.

As far as BBmolla advertising and claiming to have advertised not pro-town roles, given that some abilities in play seem to let people gain access to financial records, there's something to be said for claiming it with abandon. I agree that it doesn't seem likely, but neither does it seem likely for someone to throw money away advertising lousy anti-town stuff as town.

As far as the Nero Cain innocent goes, I owe the last ten pages a closer read-through, but my first impression is that paranoia aside, doubting PR results is a waste of time, given the specificity involved for scum to have messed with it via Tailor, and even if he has investigation immunity contrary to my read on him, given that it's apparently 4-shot we're better off scum hunting elsewhere.

--PA

[Voidedmafia]

Are our wires getting crossed here, or was that a typo? It has nothing to do with Muffin. I just meant something was holding me back from voting everyone in my top tier, particularly baldeagle and...

The way you worded it made it sound like muffin was preventing you in some way from voting bald or GP.

let me do this first

@Voided:

did you transfer to me or Garuda on N4?

N3, and Garuda. Last night I transed to LB, like I said.

Whoever has Messenger, come forward.

This is a good idea.

It's also practically a copy of pie's post on him from the previous page

I think that point's largely coincidental.

PA, where else are we going to hunt? UD?

[1baldeagle1]

Oh, that's nice. Molla gets the lazy card.

1. Eh, not really, Voided was discrediting more.
2. "Wow, baldeagle really wants Voided lynched, maybe we should do that."
4. It was scummy to me, Voided is getting pissed over one frozen vote

Backdown? I don't really care about the reaction thing, I was just curious about it. There's really nothing to argue here.

1. so it's not suspicious because voided was doing it more ok. that's one hell of a shitty argument you have there
2. so your vote freeze was to express how much you wanted voided lynched?
4. already covered that

1. So, you weren't suspicious of Voided when he discredited more but you are suspicious of me when I do a little bit?
2. I said that.

@LB, chainsaw defense is where you attack the attacker, who is attacking the person you are defending.

Hmm. You're missing something here. In your own words, can you explain why this behaviour is scummy?

(I

am

heading somewhere with this.)

Pieguy starts attacking muffinman
uwop comes in and starts attacking pieguy
It's scummy because pieguyn is pretty townish and uwop's vote was bad because of pieguy attacking muffinman.

LB, why are you so sure that the two scum-teams haven't hooked up yet?

I was going to say, "Because Peregrine the Neighbourizer died and flipped town"...

...but then I remembered Messenger is a thing and has gone unclaimed.

Whoever has Messenger, come forward.

Just curious, but what is this for?

baldeagle's case on me is forced

I can go and try to refute all of baldeagle's points, but it'll take a bit. Worth it, or waste of my time?

"Should I counter all of his points, or do you guys think you can sill townread me?"

It's also practically a copy of pie's post on him from the previous page

I don't know if you are being dense on purpose, but you really need to check the timestamps. I made the case as pieguy made the case on me.

Also, I like how Molla comes in and responds to my case only, without contributing anything else.

[BBmolla]

Yes, congrats on pointing out the obvious, that's all I've ever done here is address stuff when its addressed at me

[BBmolla]

"Should I counter all of his points, or do you guys think you can sill townread me?"

...And yes that's also exactly what I'm saying, so congrats on reading I guess?

I'm assuming you think its scummy because of quotation marks, how is me trying to save time scummy?

[1baldeagle1]

Yes, congrats on pointing out the obvious, that's all I've ever done here is address stuff when its addressed at me

Yes, and that's scummy. You don't do anything for town unless it's asked.

"Should I counter all of his points, or do you guys think you can sill townread me?"

...And yes that's also exactly what I'm saying, so congrats on reading I guess?

I'm assuming you think its scummy because of quotation marks, how is me trying to save time scummy?

No, I did that to express on how scummy it was. You are asking if you need to counter all of my points, or if your townpoints are still intact. This shows you are concern about how you appear.

[BBmolla]

Not scummy, just lazy.

Bald I have one confirmed read, and that's me being town. Any lynch is better than mine at this point (once were close to MYLO/LYLO things change a bit) because it has a better chance at flipping scum fmpov

[pieguyn]

2. so your vote freeze was to express how much you wanted voided lynched?

2. I said that.

Let's do Voided.

Also, I'm gonna freeze ProHawk's vote on Voided, because I really really think Voided is scum

and we are not going to let him evade another lynch

.

Uwop is a bit scummy too, but I prefer Voided greatly.

I thought you used it to stop him from evading another lynch

you're not getting out of this one :>

[1baldeagle1]

Not scummy, just lazy.

Bald I have one confirmed read, and that's me being town. Any lynch is better than mine at this point (once were close to MYLO/LYLO things change a bit) because it has a better chance at flipping scum fmpov

Lol, lynch this please.

2. so your vote freeze was to express how much you wanted voided lynched?

2. I said that.

Let's do Voided.

Also, I'm gonna freeze ProHawk's vote on Voided, because I really really think Voided is scum

and we are not going to let him evade another lynch

.

Uwop is a bit scummy too, but I prefer Voided greatly.

I thought you used it to stop him from evading another lynch

you're not getting out of this one :>

Yes, that's what I said, what's your point?

Also, since when did I evade a lynch?

[Voidedmafia]

Not scummy, just lazy.

Bald I have one confirmed read, and that's me being town. Any lynch is better than mine at this point (once were close to MYLO/LYLO things change a bit) because it has a better chance at flipping scum fmpov

So if your only confirmed read is yourself (and afaik me in a less confirmed state), why would you ask if you should break down the post instead of just doing it? I don't see what the town motivation is to ask if it's okay to refute a case.

Also, since when did I evade a lynch?

That isn't even a point of hers...

[pieguyn]

my point is that when you used vote freeze your intent was to stop voided from evading another lynch

however, when pressured, you said your intent was to show how much you wanted voided lynched, and said nothing about evading lynches