A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Titus]

AB, that theory literally sucks to clear GR. Someone wouldn't logically assume that if an action was doubled due to motivation, that means the person didn't kill. Scum would be moronic to have the doubled person kill (unless they killed the same target twice to avoid a bulletproof scenario). It would be like sticking an enormous lynch me sign on the buddies back. (I'm supposing Faraday doesn't do something wierd like dictate who has to kill at the start of the night).

[Garruk Relentless]

AB, that theory literally sucks to clear GR. Someone wouldn't logically assume that if an action was doubled due to motivation, that means the person didn't kill. Scum would be moronic to have the doubled person kill (unless they killed the same target twice to avoid a bulletproof scenario). It would be like sticking an enormous lynch me sign on the buddies back. (I'm supposing Faraday doesn't do something wierd like dictate who has to kill at the start of the night).

Can someone parse this in non-Titusese?

[kanyeknowsbest]

shes claiming she believes your claim and giving a dumb reason for why it doesnt make you town.

[kanyeknowsbest]

kanye tra nslation services, quick quality trans lations between playersspecfic dialetcs

[Titus]

Nautilius
Tammy
Tierce
Alfred
kanye
Cephrir
Titus
SafetyDance
ooba

That leaves:
Benmage
Elleheathen
Shadoweh
TA
Garruk
MC

The people in the second group have solid arguments for them being town too.
Garruk's

"I thought my motivate could double the scum nightkill and therefore when I used it on Tierce to the tune of no deaths N1 she became town"

is a heck of a WAT.
It's weird but definitely possible from town; from scum it's really really hard to buy.
Apparently I need to look at the quadz-reboot context.

Look at the bolded. What I gathered is as follows

1) AB is interpreting Garruks thoughts as "I motivated Tierce N1 and no deaths therefore Tierce town." AB in turn seems to clear Garruk using that logic.

While I agree that Tierce is town, this line of reasoning is ridiculous.

Premise: Garruk motivates Tierce N1. I'm going to suppose this is true.
Premise: Motivate doubles action. Again, no reason to doubt this as true.
Premise: Motivating scum doubles night action.
Conclusion: If Tierce is scum, scum get double kill.

Conclusion is bad reasoning because it puts a lynch me sign on Tierce's back.

Tierce cannot be cleared for being motivated night 1. That reasoning sucks and both Garruk and AB should be ashamed.

[Titus]

Kayne, you got anything intelligent to say about me or are you just butthurt someone didn't read you as town?

[kanyeknowsbest]

lol

[Titus]

I'll take that as a no. You have nothing else to say.

[kanyeknowsbest]

why are you trying to draw me into a cat fight

[kanyeknowsbest]

niot seeing ne town motivation in thjat

[Titus]

I am not trying to draw you into a cat fight. Fighting doesn't serve a purpose if that's all it is. However, calling you out for baseless mudslinging DOES serve a purpose. Also, if you're town (looking less likely IMO), then getting your issues on the table and discussing them is the appropriate course of action. You should know by now I'm not the type that sits idly by and lets people suggest I am scum with no foundation whatsoever.

[Tammy]

Nacho darling, I hope you're happy for what I'm about to put myself through. Also, quote stripes. *shudder*

I liked Hurricane Hodor better :/

(You should watch the movie. You'll change your mind, promise.)

Also, would you judge me if I said kanye made me swoon?

He interacted with me immediately and followed my line of thought regarding kanye.

Are you watching closely?

Vote: Stupendous Man

With this hydra, you're going to be getting Llamarble posting at weird hours while I stick mostly to the morning/afternoon.

Also, we won't be signing our posts as we feel our styles are distinctive enough that you should be able to tell who is who.

Also also, I tried trolling 'marble about our alignment in this game but it failed miserably =/

He's doing a dance about being town here. He tried trolling Marble about their alignment and failed. I know, because we talked before the game, that he would have been miserable drawing scum here. Well, he's just miserable drawing scum anywhere because he hates it, but him joking about trolling his hydra partner when I know he was looking forward to hydraing with Marble because he respects how well he can scumhunt makes sense if he's town.

But I also don't think much of the quadz wagon. However, he's easy to read, yeah? Empire? I mean I know you guys are voting there, but he doesn't seem off the wall to me?

I remember not too long after #194, Llamarble pointed it out to me and we both had the same kneejerk "WOW LOOK AT THE OBVSCUM" reaction. I'll do my best to sum up our AIM convo about quadz but it basically ended up resulting in this:
-> Llamarble found the post scummy because something either is a slip or it isn't; he found the "this looks like a slip" comment to be scummy because scum want to go after things that :look like: slips in order to bolster the credibility of their votes and make them appear more believable.
-> I hate to use the "o" word here, but personally, I found his vote opportunistic given the above "slip" logic. Scum tend to care a lot more about making sure their actions appear justified in the eyes of everyone at large so I feel like he shoved the slip logic in there for that reason.
-> Shadoweh already pointed it out, but I really dislike his unvote in #213. Seems more like a backpedal after he began drawing some heat for it rather than it being a genuine "my bad". #227 doesn't make sense either since there's plenty of scum motivation in unvoting once something like 4 people react to the vote negatively.

As far as elleheathen goes, both of us really disliked #110 -- lots of stuff had happened between that post and her first one, so her coming returning to the thread again only to comment on a fairly throwaway post by PB was fairly shitty. Llamarble also thought her responses to the wagon felt like scum responses ("huh what I do" -> "that's not worth voting me for", which I agree because it implies that the conclusion, e.g. that she herself is scum, is true). However, #282 seemed townish to me and I want to give your game a good once over since I didn't really follow it while it was ongoing (and I definitely want to get 'marble's second opinion as well). The "Wight" discussion went way over my head because I know almost nothing about the flavor and it completely slipped my mind to ask Llamarble what that was all about >_>

I had hoped Empire would draw scum for my long-delayed revenge.

Oh you have absolutely no idea how much I was dreading opening that PM box and I think the sheer force of my sigh of relief when I saw I was town caused extensive property damage to my immediate area. Plus, you know I wouldn't be posting as scum as I'd have already drowned in an ocean of my own tears so I'm pretty obvtown already.

Two things. Only slight thing of concern is that he likes to bus, but this could just as genuinely be him scumreading quadz and being right.

But look at his response to Tierce here. I like the way he responded to Tierce and called himself obvtown. He'd most likely do it as scum too because it would be expected, but it wouldn't feel natural. The drowning in an ocean of his own tears thing reads real.

What did you think about him making a meta reference concerning me and the difference in behavior in his experience?

Also, do you have a read on shadoweh yet?

The meta reference thing didn't really resonate with me here because it's pretty easy for an experienced player to fake and there wasn't a whole lot of meat to it.

As far as Shadoweh goes, not really. Too early for it and I frankly don't trust my ability to read her.

This is the way empire talks about his suspects. Also, the shadoweh thing reads real because we had just been playing in Wingate where Empire defended and town read a scum!Shadoweh.

Almost done with this letter I've been writing! I'll move on to the consolidated reads list/meta stuff tonight.

@

Nacho:

I expected way more blazing glory from your catch up and I feel very unfulfilled =/ Please please please towninate faster.
Also, what do you think of Andy and his PR in particular? (I have meta markers for him but it's tough for me to find stuff while looking through it personally.)

[

I loved this "Nacho your catchup was crap, please towninate faster" because that was exactly how I felt with Nacho's entrance. Also, Nacho would be one of the people that Empire would expect to be able to read him, so I'm not sure how much he would call attention to him this way. I mean I think he might say *something* to Nacho, but not in this way.

@Tammy- Care to elaborate on that vote?

I wish people would townread me for being snippy.

Hmm... nope.

I'm waiting in line at a Chipotle but I just want to say, holy fucking shit, my kingdom for a doublevote right now.

Town. Scum!Empire doesn't check the game while standing in line at a restaurant/fast food place and feel compelled to comment like this. Town!Empire thinks about the games he's in nonstop. He checks the games while he's out and he posts because the game is on his mind. Scum!Empire doesn't really care a whole lot about the games he's in so his check ins are much more methodical than this. This tells me he cared and is far more likely town.

@Nacho:

Let's talk about some stuff while I'm still around (well, I'll have to reply to it later but you know what I mean <_<).

I'm cutting out all the reads because this stupid quote stripe wall is going to be long and cluttered enough, but his trying to connect with Nacho on his reads and put his out there and see where Nacho is wrong felt real. I'm just not so sure that scum!Empire interacts with a town!Nacho in his reads this way.

did you not get maybe culture, when you are used to the noise factor it is not quite as noted but there was nothing of meaning there...just space. There is a lot of that... please note I come from where no one really explains thoughts and a paragraph would be considered a lot of detail... it is quite different than when I played before where there was a distinct lack of noise or any real engagement... but that is a side note, just to me came off as a lot of words with little meaning

Yawn.

I write lots of words because I actually value complete transparency and engagement, especially when the game's of this size (it becomes easier to miss things). Sometimes, I'll direct things at specific people because either I'm trying to sort the player in question out or I'm trying to see where that person is coming from on a particular read (especially if the player in question is someone I've played with a lot/trust/respect).

But thanks for dismissing my actual thoughts/method as "noise" and "substanceless". Really fucking appreciated.

He sounds irritated that someone is discounting his reads in this way. I just don't know if he would interact with a buddy this way. He values the time he puts into a mafia game, and takes it really seriously, I can totally see him getting irritated that it was discounted as "noise" and "substanceless".

Anyway, I need to go over the Thor/Benmage argument once more when I come back since I haven't looked too deeply into it, as well as finally sort out the meta stuff.

Also, Syryana, your vote actually rather sucks and you need to step it up. Pretty sure I've posted a lot about my balls. Those are pretty slam dunk towntells here.

Here he is pointing out towntells for himself. There are some things that I just don't see scum!Empire having the *balls* to say. This is one of them.

P-edit: above applies to you too Thor (also, I'm thinking Benmage and Amrun are probtown from what I've read).

MacTammyTierceEmpireThorNastyrashaNacho vote this with me pls

Maybe later, I'm hunting

wabbits

cats. Also, you could have done way better than Tammy. Way to suck.

Also, really natural trolling of me. I think he'd troll me regardless, but this sounded playful.

Holy shit, I don't think I can ever even bring myself to suspect mollie after #895. Call me a sucker or whatever but that shit was just way too genuine and just hit way too close to home.

Spoiler: An Empire Mafia Autobiography

I started playing mafia in 2010 but I've only been playing forum mafia since last year. I came from EpicMafia (which, as you might know, is pretty notorious around here) and I'm used to chat mafia, 10 minute days and being able to call out entire scum teams within minutes. Being able to write lots of words in my old site was basically impossible which I guess is why I really treasure the opportunity to do so here. When I first started playing on MS, the shift was super jarring to me - as in, the concept of not even knowing the full setup (EM setups are all what you guys would call open/semi-open) was just absolutely mindblowing to me. I think I've been picking stuff up pretty easily but I still feel like a noob in a lot of ways and like I really don't know what I'm doing (doubly so now since I've come off a 3 month hiatus).

Looking over this post, I guess I don't really know what the point of it is except to let you know that I know it feels to adjust to a different site in a LOT of ways.

I love love love this post and connection with Mollie. Also, what he brings up is true. He had just taken a 3 month hiatus from mafia due to studying for the bar exams. He missed playing mafia during that time and even before that time had felt like he was sucking at mafia. I just don't see his first game back, after the hiatus with a person he was looking forward to hydraing with, making the posts he has as scum.

It's 4am so I'm just going to go through a few people.

Agar is probably town. Scumhunting energy pattern. Andrius' replace out post was a townping too.
Also since Empire wrote most of our posts I probably haven't corrupted the TET daymasonizing system

Amrun might actually be scum. Will revisit when sentient.

A moment of marble being adorable.

Hey, I've adventured so far as to attempt eggs with salsa and candycorn. Also I once made a fish and on one half I melted half a hershey bar and on the other half I melted some brie. Neither half was really improved though.
And one time I gave some underclassmen bars of soap and they had to not drop them during the duration of a Prison themed scavenger hunt with shivs and rock breaking.

In other news, Thor is pretty opaque and could be scum.

I'll have to check the timeline, but this all of a sudden determination that Thor being scum might fit with the Cross-site game in which Thor was scum.

Unvote

Oh my god, I want this guy to be scum so so fucking badly but I just can't bring myself to keep my vote on him. Based on what I know of him, I'll be absolutely fucking floored if he's reacting this way as scum.

Thor's probably the least bad of the major wagons right now since my last talk with 'marble had lessened my scumread on ooba considerably.

Vote: Thor

One of 'marble/myself will be around near deadline, I think, if anything happens.

P-edit: Really kanye? In that one scum game I looked at, this dude pretty much awkwardly clammed up under pressure. The reaction here is like night and day.

This feels like the way that Empire reacts to someone he thinks is town but just bad.

Tammy, if you read this, you need to seriously step away for a bit and calm down. This reminds me exactly of how mad I got at Saki in Xenologue to the point where I ended up not giving a shit about the dude's alignment and that ended up at least partially contributing to the loss there. Regfan went and pointed out every single one of Saki's towntells after it was over and I felt like an idiot (well, to a point).

SafetyDance just flat out isn't scum and I think you'll be able to see that once you go over this recent stuff again.

No reason whatsoever to try to talk me down from my frustration. As scum, he'd probably find me getting so irritated hilarious and might give a nominal "Tammy you should calm down" but I think that he'd find the noise appreciable whereas as town he'd want me to come down off the ledge and focus.

Tammmmmyyyyy
I was going to sing you a song but now I can't

This happened.

Tierce what do I have to do to join this TET thing you guys have going, doesn't TETS just roll off the tongue? Would I have to stop being really good at fooling you all specifically into townreading me, is that what the problem is? Tammy and Empire probably hate me again but I haven't done anything to you lately! Well, that's not technically true but etc.

Tammy shutup, how could I have suspected that Llamarble and Empire combined was anything but a hunk of man meat?! I mean come the fuck on! (actually I kind of thought if King of the Seals was a miller then finding a not-human was a possible scum result, so I wasn't asking ahead of time. >_> ) Besides, I'm not marrying anyone, it's more like oh giggity yes.

Well, the obvtownie fun club is pretty exclusive. I just checked your background and it would seem that after games like Wingate Mansion you are, in fact, not the kind we're looking for (on a more serious note, this is why I'm just deferring to my other head completely on you). Also, this dragon is in a bit of a funk after Tammy rejected us so sorry, you're going to have to wait for us to learn to love again.

Feels incredibly town. Also, this happened so.

when were you scumreading syrlacious?

I never was, I'm just stoked that that player (if I'm right anyway) replaced someone I had a townread on for reasons I don't want to get into right now. Worded it poorly probably because I'm not 100% here mentally right now.

Also, re: that alt being cryptic/roleplaying/whatever, I don't think so; there's only one player on the site who posts like that.

He thought it was CES and he was excited. He likes playing with CES and really respects his ability as a scumhunter. I can't imagine Empire being happy that CES replaced into a game where he was in a scum hydra with Marble as he would expect to be caught instantly.

I've been considering what to say because ooba's responses have made me a little more depressed at the idea of an ooba wagon working, also because I don't think they're bad, even if I agree with like.. none of his reads beyond the obvious ones. Come on ooba, just admit your Messiah case is better and stop joining the hammer outrage, it makes you look bad in general.

This bit just bugs the ever living shit out of me and I have no idea why and I hate myself for it.

Town.

Glass Towers, I don't have much meaningful to add to Nautilus' analysis of Andrius. Though for the sake of concision: Andrius' play was null. I see nothing in his ISO that's beyond his faking abilities as scum.

Well, the main reason I asked is because Llamarble and I have been going back and forth on it. Honestly, every time I take a look at his ISO, I do get some townpings. I liked the bit where he talked about how he wanted to be more careful in reading Tierce as it was a pretty stark contrast to the way he approached my slot in The Game That Won't Be Mentioned where he just basically excessively sucked up to us. As far as the PR thing goes, I don't know, my impression is that he wouldn't have the balls to fake it as scum "to prove a point" either. Basically what I guess I'm asking with all of this is do you really think he's competent enough to fake this the way that he did? Because my impression from That Game was that he's actually really bad at scum.

He thought he was interacting with CES here; this feels natural and not at all nervous.

You should probably just vote for Spyrex.

Don't feel like it, sorry m8.

Don't think this is how he'd give up a perfect opportunity to bus.

Ugh, had a rough weekend so sorry for my lack of engagement recently. On a positive note though, I don't think I've been happier to see lots of pages in this thread than I am now. I'm staying up all of today to reset my sleeping schedule so expect more hours in this game with this half of Your Favorite Magician.

Town: Benmage, Cephrir, Garruk, Goat, Messiah, Shadoweh, Tierce,

Probably Town: Alfred, quads, the alchemist, zdenek, nautillus, safetydance

i will lynch any of: SPYREX, elle, ooba, prideandjoy, kanye, (at least on scum is in my town reads...I need to reread)

Ok, you and I need to talk because I've been townreading a lot of the people in your suspect pool and I want to know what's up here:

Really really natural way to discuss with me my reads and tell me I was wrong. Also, bonus for you who think it's only day one we're town reading them off of, this is day three. I cut off the part where he goes into details about the reads he disagrees with me on, but you can follow that if you want.

So yes, his last two hammers sucked and marble could be bringing with the adorable and thompstopping any second now, but I've been through their iso several times and I just keep finding more and more posts that ring town. Like if they're scum here, I'll congratulate him for going god tier after a hiatus, in a game where he'd hate to draw scum, with people he'd hate to be scum against, but I just don't see it happening here.

[Nautilius]

/if we're still prodded

im on winter break in a couple of weeks so I can finally do stuff >200 pages in trololol

[Nautilius]

/if we're still prodded

im on winter break in a couple of weeks so I can finally do stuff >200 pages in trololol

[Tammy]

dammit ellibereth, i thought you were nacho coming to thank me immensely for making a town case.

[kanyeknowsbest]

I am not trying to draw you into a cat fight. Fighting doesn't serve a purpose if that's all it is. However, calling you out for baseless mudslinging DOES serve a purpose. Also, if you're town (looking less likely IMO), then getting your issues on the table and discussing them is the appropriate course of action. You should know by now I'm not the type that sits idly by and lets people suggest I am scum with no foundation whatsoever.

youre right your the type thats a bad poster.

[kanyeknowsbest]

there now u can accuse me of mudslinging

[Nautilius]

dammit ellibereth, i thought you were nacho coming to thank me immensely for making a town case.

oh sowwy

do you want to tldr the thread for me lolo

[Nautilius]

dammit ellibereth, i thought you were nacho coming to thank me immensely for making a town case.

oh sowwy

do you want to tldr the thread for me lolo

[Nautilius]

AS MOTIVATION:


THANK YOU TAMMY FOR MAKING A TOWN CASE
<3
<3
<3

I WILL FOREVER BE GRATEFUL

[Tammy]

Thank you. That was a lot of work.

[Tammy]

I really want Syryana to sit down, read Titus' iso, and tell me what he thinks.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 7, Vc 7

Alfred Borden (3) -

Garruk Relentless, Benmage, Shadoweh

elleheathen (1) -

Nautilius

Titus (1) -

kanyeknowsbest

The Alchemist (5) -

ooba, Cephrir, SafetyDance, Titus, Messiah Complex

Not voting (5)

: Alfred Borden, elleheathen, The Alchemist, Tammy, Tierce

With 15 alive it takes 8 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 5th of December 20:15 EST
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-12-08 19:30:00)
  
• Natirasha is V/la. Alchemist and Titus are V/la (or will be!)

if there are mistakes i'm sleepy as h*ck

[Tammy]

Okay someone needs to help me out here. I might look back later, but did Garruk really say that they thought that their motivate would double the scum kill?

Because if they actually said that something is really wrong. I was a motivator in A Dance with Dragons, which was Faraday's last asoiaf game, and I just rechecked my role pm and it clearly states that the motivate will not double factional kills.

Just in case this is actually a thing =13539&start=200]role pms are here, I was Lyanna Stark as an alt, but Margaery Tyrell as role.

If this isn't a thing then never mind, but I constantly get role stuff messed up and this wasn't even close to what I worried about when I had that role.

[Tammy]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4539219