Mini 1516: Mafia in Space (Game Over)

[Squirrel Girl]

eek we are both online and you seem to have trouble reading me want some clarification?

I was starting to have a number of issues and doubts about Garmr. This has then come along and clubbed those issues and doubts and kicked them back into the dark corners of my mind. Nuts for everyone!

I'm still interested in a Wake lynch, he has basically shut down all scumhunting and gone full defensive mode, and it's a defensive mode that seems utterly unaware of what has happened before which feels pretty iffy to me. I'll admit that last part is gut-based because I actually cannot think of a reason scum would be more likely to pretend not getting MME's point than town would, but it still feels like it has to be faked and therefore scummy simply because I really can't believe that Wake doesn't understand what MME's issue with him is/was because MME has been screaming (and boldly bolding) it for almost every post of their exchange. I'll also admit the constant appeals to how tough his days are rub me the wrong way, if life is tough enough that he can't play the game, he should replace out, if the game is still fun to him and he has time to post then he should be able to play it. I don't really feel like there is an allowed third category where you're playing but are allowed to play really bad and it shouldn't be considered scummy because, hey, your life is busy.

@TvK + ICEninja - you guys seem to be the strong holdouts of Kid A scum. With that as a belief, and with what just happened to that wagon, which votes do you find suspect? Do you think a Kid A scum wagon was dismantled onto a Wake scum wagon, or a Wake town wagon? And, if so, what do you think of the people whose votes moved?

SG, my issue was that the statement seemed demoralizing. I don't mind it so much at this point because you didn't use it as an excuse to completely disengage.

I'm not sure why you brought it up then, was there a question you wanted answered about it?

[Wake1]

I'm still interested in a Wake lynch, he has basically shut down all scumhunting and gone full defensive mode,

Probably because you've given me absolutely no benefit of the doubt, nor have you even once said "Hey, at least he's provided some effort even though I don't agree with his reads. Hey, maybe instead of beating down on him and calling everything he does worthless, I'll be nicer to him and maybe he'll open up and be quite a bit more cooperative."

[Wake1]

Wake,

I am not voting Kid A and I'm not likely to change my mind based what is in the game thread. Assuming you're town (and I kinda am because the sheer amount of work you're putting into the game, regardless of the effectiveness or accuracy looks town to me) I think you are probably right to back off that vote if you were voting on the basis of "bad-town". Though I've lost town games by letting someone who was probably town and obviously going to fuck it up get to lylo in the past. I value team too much as a town player, probably.

If you are kindof assuming I'm Town, would you be willing to help me fend off these cases against me? What do you think of MME's attitude-laden posts against me? Do you agree with him that I haven't provided even one Scumread?

[penguin_alien]

SG, it was something I noted in my read-through. I didn't know where things were going to lead, so I noted anything that stood out. I could have gone back and edited it out, but one never knows what will turn up as relevant. As it stands, I think you're likely town, but if your back-and-forth hadn't resulted in your ultimate analysis of his tendency to provide reads, I'd have been more suspicious, seeing as Wake88's an easy player to produce content with to look productive and reasonable while actually filling up thread space.

[Wake1]

I'll admit that last part is gut-based because I actually cannot think of a reason scum would be more likely to pretend not getting MME's point than town would, but it still feels like it has to be faked and therefore scummy simply because I really can't believe that Wake doesn't understand what MME's issue with him is/was because MME has been screaming (and boldly bolding) it for almost every post of their exchange.

He keeps saying I haven't provided any Scumreads, or anything. How'd you feel if he kept screaming all of that at you in spite of all you've posted, huh?

[My Milked Eek]

Instead of asking penguin to confirm you've given scum reads, just give them already.

[Wake1]

seeing as Wake88's an easy player to produce content with to look productive and reasonable while actually filling up thread space.

Would your mind change once I flip Town?

Because it kinda gets me mad when you say I'm an easy player who produces content to just look productive and reasonable, and that I'm just filling up thread space (you're basically calling my thoughts spam, when they're not and I've spent hours of my life typing them up).

[Wake1]

Instead of asking penguin to confirm you've given scum reads, just give them already.

OK. I'll provide another general read that doesn't take anti-Town play or weakness into consideration. Just don't keep whining if my Scumreads differ from yours. I've been struggling to be patient.

[fferyllt]

Wake,

I am not voting Kid A and I'm not likely to change my mind based what is in the game thread. Assuming you're town (and I kinda am because the sheer amount of work you're putting into the game, regardless of the effectiveness or accuracy looks town to me) I think you are probably right to back off that vote if you were voting on the basis of "bad-town". Though I've lost town games by letting someone who was probably town and obviously going to fuck it up get to lylo in the past. I value team too much as a town player, probably.

If you are kindof assuming I'm Town, would you be willing to help me fend off these cases against me? What do you think of MME's attitude-laden posts against me? Do you agree with him that I haven't provided even one Scumread?

I am pretty sure you said you were scumreading me.

I'm trying a town-read for size, but I'm not convinced you are town. One of my goals for the day is to go through some of the cases on you and see if/how much/where I agree or disagree, though.

[penguin_alien]

seeing as Wake88's an easy player to produce content with to look productive and reasonable while actually filling up thread space.

Would your mind change once I flip Town?

Because it kinda gets me mad when you say I'm an easy player who produces content to just look productive and reasonable, and that I'm just filling up thread space (you're basically calling my thoughts spam, when they're not and I've spent hours of my life typing them up).

Read my quote again: I'm saying that you engage when people push you, which makes it easy for

them

to look productive. On the whole of it you're most likely town, although I wouldn't mind hunting up one of your scum games to see the difference.

[Wake1]

Wake,

I am not voting Kid A and I'm not likely to change my mind based what is in the game thread. Assuming you're town (and I kinda am because the sheer amount of work you're putting into the game, regardless of the effectiveness or accuracy looks town to me) I think you are probably right to back off that vote if you were voting on the basis of "bad-town". Though I've lost town games by letting someone who was probably town and obviously going to fuck it up get to lylo in the past. I value team too much as a town player, probably.

If you are kindof assuming I'm Town, would you be willing to help me fend off these cases against me? What do you think of MME's attitude-laden posts against me? Do you agree with him that I haven't provided even one Scumread?

I am pretty sure you said you were scumreading me.

I'm trying a town-read for size, but I'm not convinced you are town. One of my goals for the day is to go through some of the cases on you and see if/how much/where I agree or disagree, though.

I can understand that. I don't particularly trust you, either, because I think you've the competence to look like a townie as Scum, which is why I'm always more wary of the "better" players out there. I'd expect nothing less from someone else if I were Scum, too. I'm cautiously optimistic that you're Town, so that's why I've been extending my arm out to you to test how exactly you'll respond to it.

[fferyllt]

I'm a "better" town player for some values of "better". My scum game is not very well developed. Not yet, anyway. I have my moments.

[Wake1]

seeing as Wake88's an easy player to produce content with to look productive and reasonable while actually filling up thread space.

Would your mind change once I flip Town?

Because it kinda gets me mad when you say I'm an easy player who produces content to just look productive and reasonable, and that I'm just filling up thread space (you're basically calling my thoughts spam, when they're not and I've spent hours of my life typing them up).

Read my quote again: I'm saying that you engage when people push you, which makes it easy for

them

to look productive. On the whole of it you're most likely town, although I wouldn't mind hunting up one of your scum games to see the difference.

Oh. OK. I think I've got one game here as Scum where it was a perfect victory. I do have quite a few other Scum games in other places, but the ones I can remember are in places that require you to log on and post 100 times just to view the hidden subforum. The Open one we won easily, because the Town made it so. Open 532. This game, however, isn't nearly as indicative of how well I play as Scum; I play much better than that. This game we won was basically a cakewalk, and all we had to do was practically sit back and let them take care of themselves. I daresay as bad as I am as Town, it balances out because I'm brilliant as Scum.

[My Milked Eek]

Instead of asking penguin to confirm you've given scum reads, just give them already.

OK. I'll provide another general read that doesn't take anti-Town play or weakness into consideration. Just don't keep whining if my Scumreads differ from yours. I've been struggling to be patient.

That's not what I've been doing. Our scumreads differ in the sense that mine exist and yours don't. If it's "whining" to call that out, then sure, I'm whining.

[TvK]

@TvK + ICEninja - you guys seem to be the strong holdouts of Kid A scum. With that as a belief, and with what just happened to that wagon, which votes do you find suspect? Do you think a Kid A scum wagon was dismantled onto a Wake scum wagon, or a Wake town wagon? And, if so, what do you think of the people whose votes moved?

I can understand Eek's turnaround, but I don't agree with it. He seemed pretty convinced of Kid A as scum at the start of day 2, claiming that he had been saying the same stuff about him as ICE had done during day 1. He voted Kid A and added "until I've reread Garmr", so I was assuming that Garmr and Kid A were his top scum reads. In #1003 he is still convinced of Kid A scum. But then he starts attacking Wake, who I am still thinking just did something retarded but not necissarily scummy, and away he goes from the Kid A wagon onto Wake. I can see his points, but I don't agree.

Another thing I would like to bring up about Eek is his read on both me and Garmr. Eek was the driving force behind the Garmr wagon at the end of day 1, which I definitely approved of. Then at the start of day 2 he votes Kid A (still fine by me as he had expressed his doubts about him) and promised to reread Garmr. However, in his latest reads list, Garmr is suddenly in the "not so sure anymore"-category, without any indication why he switched from 99% scum to this and I am among his scum reads Wake and Kid A, even though the only thing he has said about me is that I would be scum bussing my buddy Garmr at the end of day 1. But now he just put me next to Wake and Kid A by just saying that he likes Reg's reasons to suspect me...

Finally, I do think Garmr's switch of wagons is suspect. His reasons to jump on Kid A weren't very convincing (Kid A's posting got worse/I'm confused with him/his content is minimal/shit will be sorted out if he gets lynched), but his switch to Wake is just bad. I'm really toying with the idea of a Kid A/Garmr/fornowunknownthird scum team. Garmr was happy to sit on the early wagon of his scumbuddy, but it went a bit too fast with Kid A suddenly going to L-1. Luckily for him, Wake screwed himself up and Garmr immediatly took the first possibility to change to another wagon. Once again, he tries to justify his swap, not by sheeping other people's reason (which would possibly make him look scummy), but he tries fabricate his own reasons again. But let's face it, those reasons were bad, forced and unconvincing.

P-Edit: Holy shit, 12 posts while I was writing this. Will look at them when I finish dinner.

[Wake1]

Instead of asking penguin to confirm you've given scum reads, just give them already.

OK. I'll provide another general read that doesn't take anti-Town play or weakness into consideration. Just don't keep whining if my Scumreads differ from yours. I've been struggling to be patient.

That's not what I've been doing. Our scumreads differ in the sense that mine exist and yours don't. If it's "whining" to call that out, then sure, I'm whining.

Last I checked your Scumread read list was something like this:

Scum
"A"

Maybe Scum
"B," "C"

Null
"D," "E," "F,"

Leaning Town
"G"

Town
"H"

You didn't provide much content, but then you say "well, just read all my posts to find out."

Also, take into consideration that I'm NOT one to have really strong feelings on one extreme or another (Town/Scum), because I hate being wrong and mislynching people.

I've also been trying to find a better system to delineate what exactly my Scumread feelings are. Like "Almost Certainly Town," "Maybe is Scum," "Am unsure; could be either or." Etc.

[Wake1]

And where exactly do you place someone on your reads list if on one hand you think you can really trust him, but on the other you're worried he might be damned good Scum?

That's my problem

right now

.

I'm looking at TvK, Regfan, ICEninja, Squirrel Girl, and TvK.

I just don't KNOW. They could either be Town or Scum, and there are actions and feeling that make me feel both ways at once. Who's gonna blame me for my ambivalence?

[Wake1]

Shit, there's not two TvKs.

I meant Fferyllt.

[My Milked Eek]

Last I checked your Scumread read list was something like this:

Scum
"A"

Maybe Scum
"B," "C"

Null
"D," "E," "F,"

Leaning Town
"G"

Town
"H"

You didn't provide much content, but then you say "well, just read all my posts to find out."

Also, take into consideration that I'm NOT one to have really strong feelings on one extreme or another (Town/Scum), because I hate being wrong and mislynching people.

I've also been trying to find a better system to delineate what exactly my Scumread feelings are. Like "Almost Certainly Town," "Maybe is Scum," "Am unsure; could be either or." Etc.

Reread that readlist. I have no nulls. You could argue that garm would be null, but that's nitpicking. I had him as scum, but I'm having my doubts about that.

You call this not providing content? Ok, read that list and tell me where my scumreads are. I'll do the same with your general reads post and here are my thoughts:

"I have no fucking clue".

As for the reasons: read my posts, I'm sorry, but this is how mafia works. There's an iso for easy reference, I'm not going to constantly quote every post I made because you're not reading the thread.


Stop being offended by people who have said your content is empty or thin. Yes, you're putting effort and time into your posts, even a blind man can see that, but I honestly don't believe that to be an indicator of alignment or quality of posting. These appeals to emotion are getting really annoying. Your constant whining about this boils down to this:

You are more concerned with how you are perceived by the players than finding scum.

[My Milked Eek]

And where exactly do you place someone on your reads list if on one hand you think you can really trust him, but on the other you're worried he might be damned good Scum?

That's my problem

right now

.

I'm looking at TvK, Regfan, ICEninja, Squirrel Girl, and TvK.

I just don't KNOW. They could either be Town or Scum, and there are actions and feeling that make me feel both ways at once. Who's gonna blame me for my ambivalence?

Even in your scumread list you are sitting on the fence.

[fferyllt]

Reg, have you played any games with PA?

[My Milked Eek]

@TvK + ICEninja - you guys seem to be the strong holdouts of Kid A scum. With that as a belief, and with what just happened to that wagon, which votes do you find suspect? Do you think a Kid A scum wagon was dismantled onto a Wake scum wagon, or a Wake town wagon? And, if so, what do you think of the people whose votes moved?

I can understand Eek's turnaround, but I don't agree with it. He seemed pretty convinced of Kid A as scum at the start of day 2, claiming that he had been saying the same stuff about him as ICE had done during day 1. He voted Kid A and added "until I've reread Garmr", so I was assuming that Garmr and Kid A were his top scum reads. In #1003 he is still convinced of Kid A scum. But then he starts attacking Wake, who I am still thinking just did something retarded but not necissarily scummy, and away he goes from the Kid A wagon onto Wake. I can see his points, but I don't agree.

The Kid A wagon isn't running away. I don't want the day to end without getting information on Wake. If Kid A had been hammered after Wake's L-1, what would we have gotten extra about other players? We still have a week, I don't understand this constant deadline pressure.

Another thing I would like to bring up about Eek is his read on both me and Garmr. Eek was the driving force behind the Garmr wagon at the end of day 1, which I definitely approved of. Then at the start of day 2 he votes Kid A (still fine by me as he had expressed his doubts about him) and promised to reread Garmr. However, in his latest reads list, Garmr is suddenly in the "not so sure anymore"-category, without any indication why he switched from 99% scum to this and I am among his scum reads Wake and Kid A, even though the only thing he has said about me is that I would be scum bussing my buddy Garmr at the end of day 1. But now he just put me next to Wake and Kid A by just saying that he likes Reg's reasons to suspect me...

I understand it if you haven't read all my posts in detail as it was one line in a bigger post I think. Main reason garm is in my doubt pile is that he breadcrumbed herself/sg as mason on day 1. Why would garmscum do that? How does that fit in my idea of garmscum? It doesn't. One of my main points against garm was that he sheeped herself and buddied up to sg. This fits in the whole "garm thought they were masons" thing.

[Wake1]

Then I guess I can just put some small little gut Scum list together, and then when people ask, just say "hey, read my ISO," like you've done with me. Is that right? Because I thought you're supposed to provide a lot of reasoning to ground your thoughts and reads, and NOT just say to others to just go and read your ISO. So, yeah, guess you all can just read my ISO then so I don't have to keep repeating myself, thanks to MME's suggestion. [For the record, that sounds awfully lazy, which is why I've never done so before.]

My Scumreads

(Based on my very current gut feelings)

80%-100% Town

60%-80% Leaning Town

[Kid A] [Garmr]

40%-60% Null

[TvK] [Fferyylt] [My Milked Eek] [Penguin Alien] [Regfan]

20%-40% Leaning Scum

[Squirrel Girl] [Havingfitz] [ICEninja]

0%-20% Scum

[Wake1]

Even in your scumread list you are sitting on the fence.

And I'm going to sit on the fence if I

don't know

what to make of some people.

[Squirrel Girl]

Probably because you've given me absolutely no benefit of the doubt, nor have you even once said "Hey, at least he's provided some effort even though I don't agree with his reads. Hey, maybe instead of beating down on him and calling everything he does worthless, I'll be nicer to him and maybe he'll open up and be quite a bit more cooperative."

I gave you extensive benefit of the doubt and allowed you a solid amount of time prior to ever coming after you. Indeed, my case was 'look at all he's posted and how little he's said' which means, by definition, you had managed to post a large number of times prior to that post from me. Since I now think you look scummy I am not sure why I need to back off and give you another pile of time and days especially since you've actually done more *with* pressure than without.

He keeps saying I haven't provided any Scumreads, or anything. How'd you feel if he kept screaming all of that at you in spite of all you've posted, huh?

I don't think it would happen because I have actually given reads. There is a reason multiple people believe this of you - even people who are defending you somewhat (Reg) are taking that angle. If you honestly think we're all wrong/lying then I think you need to take a moment and look at what you're actually doing.