[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Cheery Dog]

So that includes a big circle of hiding people?

[pieguyn]

I had an idea that was similar to that

3 mafia doctors
7 town doctors
3 vanilla townies
-if a circular protection occurs, all protections in said circle will fail
seems unbalanced as shit but screw it

anyway, carry on ~

[FakeGod]

So that includes a big circle of hiding people?

nah hiders are really just acting as weak cops in this scenario

[pieguyn]

actually, here's a serious idea

Half-Nightless

-3 mafia goons
-10 vanilla townies

-the game is nightless for the most part... however, whenever a mafia gets lynched, the remaining mafia get a small night round where they get a return kill on a town player

I was wondering about mountainous games and this stops the mafia from just killing off all the strong, organizing players, while still giving them some sort of control over the situation. it seems like it might be an ok balance. thoughts?

[Cabd]

Just make them vengeful mafia goons; easier that way.

[pieguyn]

are you stalking me or what

that's the second time I've posted in here where you responded pretty much immediately 0.0//

anyway, the difference there is mafia have more control over the kill that way. when the first mafia is lynched the remaining 2 mafia have a bit of extra time to plan stuff out and make a kill that's possibly better for them, as opposed to it being decided solely by the mafia who got lynched. unless the mafia who gets lynched can still talk in the mafia QT after he gets lynched but before he makes his shot, but that seems weird o.o

[Cabd]

See the user title; read the lyrics, get back to me.

[pieguyn]

<3

[Archetype]

Giants vs Humans

2 Giants

10 Humans

Giants are essentially Mafia Goons. They get nightchat and a factional kill.
Humans are basically Town Compulsive Hiders. Except multiple people can hide behind the same person and when you do hide actions that target you still effect you.

So it's basically a game a WIFOM. Town wants to confirm certain players, but they don't want to target the obvious player or they'll get mass-killed by scum. But then scum can anticipate that and shoot the least likely person. And of course Town can die by just targeting scum.

Thoughts? It's a bit scum-sided now, so maybe randomly assign each of the Townies as Even or Odd night? Could add another layer of depth.

Not sure if trolling, but I'll bite.

Obvious Breaking strategy:

Players assign 1 through 12 to each player, and no lynch.

Every player targets the player who has 1 more than their number (i.e. #1 hides behind #2, etc.), and player #12 hides behind #1.

Even with the giant's night kill, only max three players will be killed. Giants have been narrowed down to three players, and it's currently 2 vs 7.

GG.

Alright, then how about this.

Take my suggested add on (the Even/Odd Night Modifier) and use it. Additionally make the Giants Commuters with the same randomized Even/Odd Modifier. Let Giants kill even when commuted. Players can set up the hiding chain, but some players won't even be able to hide that night and the giants could possibly commute.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hangon, hiders die if they target a hider that gets stomped on right? So if you do that enormous circle everyone dies right?

[Bulbazak]

Factions

7 players, 3 factions:

5 Town

1 Mafia

1 Third Party

Only 1 faction can win.

Setup:
*Prior to the game, the Third Party player is randomly given 1 of: Lyncher, Survivor, 1-shot Serial Killer.
*The lone Mafia player is given a choice of: Ninja, Roleblocker, Godfather
*All town players start off being Vanilla Townies. During the confirmation stage, everyone votes on 1 of the following: Tracker, Doctor, Cop. The role with the most votes will be the town's sole power role. One of the VTs will then randomly become said power role.

A few more things:
*If there is a Lyncher, their target will be decided randomly. There is no guarantee that the target will be mafia or town.
*Should the Serial Killer decide to use their 1 shot, that shot will cancel out the Mafia's shot. This way, only 1 kill a night is allowed.
*All third party roles are win stealing. Remember, only 1 faction can win. This means that should a Lyncher or a Survivor achieve their objective, they will win, and everyone else will lose.

I've ran this game once here. It ended with a Mafia victory. I then rebalanced the game, removing Jester from the possibilities that the third party could be and making the SK 1-shot and having that shot cancel out the Mafia's shot in order to avoid the 2 shots a night scenario that could be present in a game this size. I was going to run a test on that site featuring the changes to the setup, but activity has since fallen, and I couldn't get the numbers needed for a 7 player game.

I think this setup is fairly balanced, but I want some more input. I plan on running it during the Marathon week, and also later as a Micro game.

[JasonWazza]

Survivor is basically a SK without a kill.

But i have to ask, how does a survivor actually win the game? (ie. does he have to survive to day X or does he have to end in a 1v1?)

[BBmolla]

Eh. I don't particularly like any games with only 1 mafia. They're barely mafia. Mafia is a game of connections, and that's based on there being more than one mafia and them interactions.

And yeah, SK just seems like a better survivor.

If I was really trying to make this work balancewise, make the survivor bulletproof and win in a 1:1:1 or 1:1 situation, make the SK investigation immune, and make lyncher target ALWAYS town. Having their target as Mafia is completely screwed to the town.

[Bulbazak]

Survivor wins as they normally do (make it to endgame and survive), only instead of sharing the win, they take it for themselves.

The game is 1 mafia because of the size (7players). I was trying to make something that would work with a small amount of people, yet had the risk/reward elements from larger open setups, such as Pick Your Poison. I felt 2 mafia in a game that size would be unfair. However, I didn't like the idea of 6 town vs. 1 mafia. The third party faction was introduced to balance everything out, by giving the game a dynamic that is normally missing in games that size, more specifically a second anti-town player that didn't sway the game in mafia's favor, while also adding another element to the mafia player's play (i.e. worrying about a third party as well).

I've thought about making the Cop role in the game being able to distinguish between town and not town, instead of mafia and not mafia, as that was not the case in the first game. I think this would not give third party too much of an edge in regards to having nothing to counteract them. I have issues with giving another passive ability to the SK, since using his 1-shot alerts the mafia player to his presence, and seeing as he's the only third party role that can be caught by the tracker. If Cop is able to detect 3rd parties as well, that would make SK the only role of the 3 to be susceptible to 2 possible investigative roles (Remember, they're both not in the game.). If anything, investigative immune should go to the Survivor, since BP would make that role OP, given that the challenge of that role would be avoiding getting lynched AND NK'd. However, I also hesitate in making Lyncher BP or Investigative Immune, since the primary way to stop that role would be identifying him via investigation or him being NK'd. As for the Lyncher target, it really doesn't matter, as the game would end when that person was lynched, regardless of who it was. You can say that it screws the town if the target is Mafia, but couldn't the same be said of the Mafia if the target is town? The Lyncher is going to win either way. And since it's 3 factions facing off against each other, and a Lyncher would win if his target is lynched (and he's on the wagon. That's a way to ensure balance.), what does it matter what alignment that target is? The game is over no matter what.

[JasonWazza]

a) i think Survivor stealing the win is a bit silly (and basically makes them a 2nd Mafia with no kill/SK with no kill).
b) I think that game isn't necessarily balanced for any side (balanced implys that the game is based on skill and not luck).

5v1v1 isn't ever going to be that good of a game.

[agi102]

Some games with underlying mechanics:

Murderous Mafia (13p)

3 Mafia A Goons
2 Mafia A Distinct Power Roles
3 Mafia B Goons
1 Mafia B Alignment Cop A
1 Mafia B Alignment Cop B
1 3-shot Bulletproof SK A
1 3-shot Bulletproof SK B
1 3-shot Bulletproof SK C

Each Distinct Power Role and Alignment Cop gets one 3d die, and each SK gets two. They must roll the dies.
For Mafia A, the amount of kills is determined by adding the rolls together, multiplying it by 3 and dividing it by 5. Rounded down, that number is their kills per night. The kill duties are split among Goons.
For Mafia B, the amount of kills is determined by squaring the die from Cop A, then dividing it by (3 times the die roll of B). This number is rounded down, and the kills are split among Goons. If the result is less than 1, it becomes 2.
For SK A, the amount of kills is determined by taking the product of the dies and subtracting 6. If the number is 0, it becomes 2. If the number is negative, it is made positive. If the number is greater than 3, it becomes 1.
For SK B, the amount of kills is determined by dividing the first die by 2, and the second die by 1.5, then squaring them both and adding them together. The result is rounded to the nearest 1. If it is 4, it becomes 2. If it is 5, it becomes 3. If it is 6, he will roll again.
For SK C, the amount of kills is determined by adding them together and halving it. Rounded up, that number is his kills per night.
Distinct Power Roles get a random role from a list compiled by the mod, the better the role the less chance he has to get. They go one before the other. If the second one has the same power role as the first, he rolls again. But if he gets 3 rerolls, and fails to get another role, he becomes a regular Goon.
Alignment Cops say whether another person is an SK or a Mafia A, and what their role is.
If a Goon with a kill dies, another person in the Mafia group gets it. Any Goon may have more than 1 kill.

Apocalypse (11p)

1 1-shot Bulletproof 1-shot Lynchproof Zombie
10 Survivors

Zombie is flavor for mafia goon. Survivor is flavor for VT. Zombie will kill someone at night. That person is infected. Day Start. Zombies may kill independently. Survivors lynch at day. You knew that.

Zombies may kill at day. They have a 5% chance of being witnessed if they do so. If they are witnessed that Zombie immediately dies, and they can lynch 2 other people. New zombies do not know the old zombie. Survivors may target someone at night. If the target is a Survivor the targeter will be silenced the next day and will die a horrible death the next night. However, the target will be confirmed. If the zombies target that person afterward, they will fail and be revealed to that person as zombies. If the target is a zombie, 10% chance zombie will die, 60% chance survivor will die, and 60% chance zombie gets converted to a survivor.

There is a 15% chance any survivor will be one of the following roles:
Ruthless Survivor: If targets zombie at night 50% chance zombie will die, 40% chance for Ruthless Survivor to die, but zombie may never be converted.
Priest: 80% protects someone at night from zombie kill, and 20% chance both zombie and target will die.
Innocent Child: Confirmed at Game Start. Immune to zombie kill. If targeted by priest, becomes a Ruthless Survivor (this will be revealed publicly). If targets Survivor at night, will not be silenced and will die the night after the night after the targeting. If targets Zombie at night, will die and reveal the Zombie next day.
Hero: Kills someone at night. If he kills a Zombie he will be revealed to the zombies that night. Other kills take precedence over this kill.
Doctor: If targets zombie at night, he WILL convert that zombie. If targets survivor at night, he has a 20% chance to give him 2-shot Bulletproof, 35% chance to give him 1-shot Bulletproof, and 45% to kill both the Survivor and the Doctor.

Gun Mafia (9p)

1 Gunsmith
2 Mafia
6 Vigilantes

This game is very simple. The Gunsmith must target someone at night. If he targets Mafia, he will be told so, but cannot target anyone the next night. If he targets a Vigilante, that Vigilante will be allowed to shoot. Mafia have unlimited bullets. Vigilantes, however, don't. They start off with 1 bullet (without any gun to load with the bullets). When they have no bullets, they can do a Night Action to steal from the Mafia, which has a 36% chance of getting the Vigilante 1 bullet, 18% chance of getting him 2 bullets, 5.1% chance of getting him 3 bullets, 0.81% of getting 4 bullets, and 0.09% for 5 bullets, as well as a 40% chance for him to get caught by the mafia and die. If more than 1 of the Vigilantes try to get bullets, the bullets will be acquired for all the Vigilantes, and the probabilities for each for each result are:

2 Vigs: 48% 1 bullet, 24% 2 bullets, 6.8% 3 bullets, 1.08% 4 bullets, 0.12% 5 bullets, 20% death
3 Vigs: 52% 1 bullet, 26% 2 bullets, 7.3666666... 3 bullets, 1.17% 4 bullets, 0.13% 5 bullets, 13.333333% death
4 Vigs: 54% 1 bullet, 27% 2 bullets, 7.65% 3 bullets, 1.215% 4 bullets, 0.135% 5 bullets, 10% death
I doubt 5 and 6 vigs will ever happen, but,
5 Vigs: 55.2% 1 bullet, 27.6% 2 bullets, 7.72% 3 bullets, 1.242% 4 bullets, 0.138% 5 bullets, 8% death
6 Vigs: 60% 1 bullet, 30% 2 bullets, 8.5% 3 bullets, 1.35% 4 bullets, 0.15% 5 bullets

[BBmolla]

First one isn't mafia. You have to have a town for it to be mafia.

Second is terrible because the percentages make it so swingy. In general you want to avoid percentage based roles.

Third one would be a lot better if you simplified it, the first part of it is fine, but the game is won or lost in the percentage based stuff. Gunsmith isn't a regular Gunsmith is it? Assuming not, you can basically make this out of it.

Gunmaker Mafia

11 Players

2 Mafia Goons

1 Gunmaker
1 Backup Gunmaker
7 Vanilla Townies

• Gunmaker selects someone at night to give a gun.
  
• That player can use it the next night or next day.

[agi102]

my games

my games are so bad

Yeah, it's not a regular Gunsmith

Here's another game to criticize

Utterly Bastard Mafia (20p)

1 Deathproof Captain Lover
1 Turret (Kill, pierces through bulletproof, but not deathproof)
1 Nuke (When killed, kills all non-deathproof people)
1 Deathproof Doctor Lover
4 2-shot Bulletproof 2-shot Lynchproof 1-shot Deathproof Unpierceable Guards (Kill, only works on anti-town)
12 Ninjas (Only a Nuke can kill them. SK. In groups of 3, with factional NKs along with their own NK.)

Yes, it's hugely town-sided, but what did you expect? It's a bastard game.

[BBmolla]

Well uh

Like what feedback do you want?

Or do you want us to just not comment on them?

I'm just a bit confused that's all

[Leafsnail]

I finally fixed it!

Trust Mafia

2 Players

1 Mafia False Day Vigilante

1 Town Day Vigilante

or

2 Town Day Vigilantes

(50% chance of each setup)

• At any time, a Day Vigilante can either shoot the other player to kill them or shoot the sky. They can only shoot once.
  
• A False Day Vigilante can only shoot the sky.
  
• The game ends when either both players have shot the sky or when one player has shot the other.
  
• The town wins if there are no mafia members alive and no townies dead. The mafia wins if a mafia member is alive at the end of the game. If a player doesn't fulfill their win condition at the end of the game then they lose.

This seems like it could be pretty fun, and also works well statistically (as a townie shooting the sky and shooting the other player are both actions which have a 33% chance of making you win, so it comes down to your judgment). It would also be easy to run without a moderator (put 3 red cards and 1 black card in a pile, randomly give one to each player) so you can now play mafia with just two people!

[JasonWazza]

This is less Mafia and more like conspiracy (same concept, different game because plain and simply you don't have an Uninformed MAJORITY and an informed MINORITY which is the key indicator of mafia games.)

[Leafsnail]

It's similar to conspiracy, but I think it retains the key elements of mafia. In conspiracy your only goal is to work out whether the other players are mafia - it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of you. Here you have to also convince the other player not to shoot you, if you think they're town.

I'd also say it is effectively an informed minority. The mafia clearly has more information (they know the exact setup) and they're essentially a "non-voter", meaning that the town is basically the majority which the mafia has to try and trick.

[Klick]

Isn't it always advantageous to not shoot the other player? If you're town, the other player has a 1/3 chance of being scum.

[Leafsnail]

That is true, but it's meant to balance the fact that shooting a mafia member is a 100% win, while not shooting a townie isn't (they could still should you).

I guess if you'd made an out of game agreeement with the other player/ players in general to not shoot whenever you're a townie that's a problem, but I'd argue that that's violating the "play to win this particular game, rather than to increase your winrate overall" rule.

e: The statistics on this are kindof confusing me, actually. Your chances of winning if you shoot the sky depends on the chance that your opponent will shoot you afterwards, but it seems like the chance of them shooting you back is also based on the chance of you shooting the sky in the first place (since the chance of you being mafia from their perspective increases once they know you aren't shooting them).

So I guess that makes it vulnerable to meta-manipulation, since if there's a meta to not-shoot then not-shooting is correct, while if there's a meta to shoot then shooting is correct. I'm not really sure how you could fix this problem.

[Espeonage]

Necromancy Mafia 7p

Mafia Doctor
Vanilla Mafia

Doctor
VT
VT
VT
VT

Limited Reveal. Only rolename is given, not alignment. So either Vanilla or Doctor. Mafia has a night kill on even nights. Current necromancer is flipped as Vanilla.
At the end of each even day a random VT gets the necromancer ability, which will bring back to life one of the deceased players. It is modkillable to claim having been a necromancer.