[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

BBmolla · Post Post #6600 (ISO) » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:35 pm

In post 6599, Espeonage wrote:It is modkillable to claim having been a necromancer.

Okay good luck with that

Espeonage · Post Post #6601 (ISO) » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:08 pm

In post 6600, BBmolla wrote:
In post 6599, Espeonage wrote:It is modkillable to claim having been a necromancer.
Okay good luck with that

Just make people aware of the rule and the repercussions.

JacobSavage · Post Post #6602 (ISO) » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:31 pm

Cloaked Necromancy

Mafia Doctor
Mafia Goon

Town Doctor
Town Watcher
Town Necromancer
5 Insomniacs

No Reveal. Town only told if the are a Tracker or not Tracker, Mafia given full Role. Mafia has a night kill. Each Night Necromancer chosen at random from Insomniacs. Each Night everyone must submit an action (else it is randomised). If they are the Necromancer that person is revived, if are the Doctor then they protect them, if they are an Insomniacsvisit that person but leave no trace.

Tracker see's all visits. Mafia Doctor may not action and kill on same night.

Thoughts?

Espeonage · Post Post #6603 (ISO) » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:02 am

Make necro even night so the game won't go forever.

Leafsnail · Post Post #6604 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:08 am

Do you mean tracker or watcher? Watcher seems like it could blow the game wide open by forcing everyone to target the same dude.

FakeGod · Post Post #6605 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:12 am

I have a new setup proposal for newbie games.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child
1 Doctor
5 Vanilla Town

Checklist:

Mafia has more than one member. (Mafia learns to play as a team)
Town has a PR. (Mafia and Town can learn to PR hunt)
Fakeclaim potentials. (Mafia can fakeclaim as doctor)
Playing with a clear/as a clear. (Innocent Child)
No breaking strategies. (i.e. no Follow the Cop)

My simulation shows that this setup has town win rate of

48.5%

(very close to 50%) given that town were to randomly lynch, and mafia were to randomly shoot. (unless doc claimed of course)

quadz08 · Post Post #6606 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:12 am

Except you now have a confirmed innocent that will survive until the day after the doctor dies, 100%. Might as well just make it a 1-shot BP IC. The game is dull and teaches nothing about night action choice or how to use night actions during the day phase.

FakeGod · Post Post #6607 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:36 am

Doctor is supposed to be on the IC whole game, yes.

The night action sequence is a solved question from the town side of things. Only thing unpredictable is the choices mafia makes.

We should teach newbies to focus on the day game, and teach them that the PRs are dependable things that do certain reliable things during the night. Also, analyzing the night kill choice is still a thing in this setup.

FakeGod · Post Post #6608 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:55 am

Day phase should favor the town, and night phase should favor the mafia.

Traditionally, town should be in their homes during the night, cowering in fear under their beds or whatever.

Town power roles added a new layer of complexity to the game, because mafia now needs to PR hunt etc (I approve), but the new mechanic shouldn't overshadow the original spirit of the game. Not for newbie games, anyway.

Overreliance on the power roles tend to result in mafia games that are no longer about the day phase, but good uses of night actions. While those games can be balanced and even be fun, those games are not the games I want to teach the newbies.

quadz08 · Post Post #6609 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:28 am

Twon power roles are part of the game unless you're playing a mountainous. Newbie games need to reflect and include that.

FakeGod · Post Post #6610 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 9:40 am

The setup includes power roles.

In fact, it has two power roles.

quadz08 · Post Post #6611 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:17 am

In post 6609, quadz08 wrote:Town
power roles
night actions are part of the game unless you're playing a mountainous. Newbie games need to reflect and include that.

FakeGod · Post Post #6612 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:26 am

We shouldn't try to teach everything at once.

Let's go one step at a time.

BBmolla · Post Post #6613 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:56 am

Teaching "Follow the clear" is not a good thing.

FakeGod · Post Post #6614 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Why would they follow the clear?

IC isn't a cop. IC is uninformed just like rest of the VT.

BBmolla · Post Post #6615 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:08 pm

But people know he's town! So if they follow him they'll be following someone who is 100% town so it's their best bet.

Plus, Doc will be on him so he won't die!

BBmolla · Post Post #6616 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:09 pm

(Any setup that has a Doc and a confirmable town PR that can be protected is no bueno imo)

FakeGod · Post Post #6617 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:11 pm

In post 6615, BBmolla wrote:But people know he's town! So if they follow him they'll be following someone who is 100% town so it's their best bet.

Plus, Doc will be on him so he won't die!

Aha, but I have taken account for this strategy.

If the town follow the IC, then, assuming IC is about good as a random generator at landing a scum, town loses on average. (

48.5%

)

BBmolla · Post Post #6618 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:14 pm

Okay, gl explaining that to every newbie in every game.

FakeGod · Post Post #6619 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:20 pm

It takes one line:

If the town follow the IC, then, assuming IC is about good as a random generator at landing a scum, town loses on average. (

48.5%

)

BBmolla · Post Post #6620 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:25 pm

What makes this better than the current newbie setup?

FakeGod · Post Post #6621 (ISO) » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:32 pm

It's not reliant on town power roles to find scum.

JacobSavage · Post Post #6622 (ISO) » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:09 am

In post 6603, Espeonage wrote:Make necro even night so the game won't go forever.

point

In post 6604, Leafsnail wrote:Do you mean tracker or watcher? Watcher seems like it could blow the game wide open by forcing everyone to target the same dude.

Thats actually a valid point. Change that to a tracker.

Empking · Post Post #6623 (ISO) » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:57 am

In post 6605, FakeGod wrote:I have a new setup proposal for newbie games.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Innocent Child
1 Doctor
5 Vanilla Town

Checklist:

Mafia has more than one member. (Mafia learns to play as a team)
Town has a PR. (Mafia and Town can learn to PR hunt)
Fakeclaim potentials. (Mafia can fakeclaim as doctor)
Playing with a clear/as a clear. (Innocent Child)
No breaking strategies. (i.e. no Follow the Cop)

My simulation shows that this setup has town win rate of
48.5%
(very close to 50%) given that town were to randomly lynch, and mafia were to randomly shoot. (unless doc claimed of course)

I actually like this quite a bit (and unlike everyone elee I think giving a newbie Doc the protect-IC/Protect-someone-else dilemma is a positive and active thing. Maybe run it as a Micro to sed if it works in that enviroment first?

callforjudgement · Post Post #6624 (ISO) » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:04 am

Putting a role name that abbreviates to "IC" in a newbie is asking for trouble, given that that has a meaning already.

And it isn't broken, but it's rather affected by who draws which roles. In particular, the skill of the Innocent Child is going to be the main determining factor.

It does have the good feature that it's basically impossible to pull off stupid gambits in, which is something that will help out newbie game quite a bit if implemented in a setup.