Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[mykonian]

I mean, if I took the time I could write a nice wall with tells and analysis and far fetched theories that I believe in and you invariably are skeptic about (general "you"). It's a post that's out of place in the game and in f-16's way of playing. It doesn't fit at all, it stands out, it stands out in a way that's scummy.

I think it'd be productive to at least hear if someone in this town is on some similar wavelength, or if I really have to wall it up again and be disappointed by your responses again

[Kazekirimaru]

That said, I'm not sold on F-16 scum yet. I need to look at some other games of his. In the meantime, what do you think of Pasch?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Pie, I am not convinced that BRO's assumptions about whether you know the anime = scum. He is null for now. I'll go through his other games to see how he opens his attacks as town or scum. That should shed a better light on his affiliation. Can you link the games you have played with BRO? Pasch is leaning scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32587
that's the only one. he was scum I was town

also it's not just the fact he made that assumption. it's how his "engagement" with me was nothing but a bunch of loaded questions that made said assumptions. it's bad enough he made said assumption (especially after I told him I didn't know flavor) but then he used it to come up with a bunch of fake reasons to throw blame at me and get me off him. there's also how he blatantly ignored the fact that another assumption he was making was incorrect. IMO it makes way more sense in the context of my above post. unless that's what you meant

Thanks. I'll re-read through the BRO parts again.

[Kagami]

Why would scum push a weak player, though? Given that the majority of townies have a 1-shot commute, scum would want to push people who have the potential to dodge an NK.

1-shot commute isn't strong enough to make me think that scum would be all about eliminating players with it. Any townie lynch is a good lynch for scum.

...
It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means ...

This is my favorite thing that plum has said. If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

[mykonian]

bit enthusiastic, nothing I esspecially dislike yet. He doesn't trip many of the common general tells, so there's no direct reason to go after him straight away.

So at the moment I still have too few scum to work with. There are some townreads forming. But at lot of things will require time. I know only a couple of you and that doesn't help. If scum isn't stupid and doesn't run into common tells, all that's left is getting to know the people and see what makes sense.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

@f16,

Why shouldn't we lynch you today, Paschendale?

this was where i started thinking plum scum

although none of plum's earlier posts were all that great, this is just the type of question i hate the most. i've never seen a town player ask this sort of question, and i can recall examples of scum players using it (like, most recently, pa in FEA)

also didn't like #180. i'm pretty sure you've read imperishable night, or at least skimmed the important parts. how do you not see similarities to my play re varsoon/pie there?

I don't find it similar. I found you opportunistic in Imperishable night for taking Varsoon's side despite Pie having better arguments. I assume you did it because Varsoon was easier to buddy to and less likely to get paranoid. Plum takes Kagami's side but I actually agree that Pasch's arguments are worse than Kagami's so there is no opportunism there - she does what I'd naturally expect townies to do. I also think Kagami is likely to be far more level-headed than Varsoon.

[mykonian]

guys, does anyone of you know plum?

[Kazekirimaru]

guys, does anyone of you know plum?

To an extent.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I mean, if I took the time I could write a nice wall with tells and analysis and far fetched theories that I believe in and you invariably are skeptic about (general "you"). It's a post that's out of place in the game and in f-16's way of playing. It doesn't fit at all, it stands out, it stands out in a way that's scummy.

I think it'd be productive to at least hear if someone in this town is on some similar wavelength, or if I really have to wall it up again and be disappointed by your responses again

Doesn't look like you have a clue how I play. My wiki is updated. Start there.

[mykonian]

heh, seen enough dear

[Paschendale]

I've avoided conclusions? My answers to all this questions should be intrinsically obvious at this point. I think her actions were town motivated and deliberately working towards developing the town's position.

Then why don't you actually explain how this is possible? Cuz I see no way that this benefited town at all. All I see is scum having better choices for night kills. And I wasn't suggesting that you were scummy. I was suggesting that you're missing the obvious.

It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means and that she believed scum didn't have access to the fact that such a modifier would be part of the setup.

That's a weird misrep of your own reaction to the weak claim. And Pie's. And Kaze's. Kaze explicitly invoked the standard meaning. Why are you lying?

And why would she believe this? If weak means not having gear, than a goon would necessarily have it. It's an obvious lie that only town could have it. And one that you dutifully repeat.

I think it is far more likely that she or part of the scum team is a goon and has the weak modifier, hence how they know what it means.

This isn't even remotely plausible. Scum don't and can't have the Weak modifier; they are Weak by default.

Since the weak modifier isn't based on alignment, explain how this is true. Why are you lying?

She never asked for another 'Weak' claim - only stated what she'd do in the event of a third one - which, considering what she assumed about scum knowledge, was a pretty reasonable approach.

It takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to watch someone repeatedly say that they have a plan for when a third person claims and not see that as a call for a claim. So again, why are you lying?

pasch, I'm quite sure I'm correct about everything I said regarding the weak modifier, the "danger" was that scum would know what it is (either through their fake-claim information or through special mod-granted setup knowledge as bro suggested) and would use that knowledge to snatch some town-cred. The fact that nobody jumped on being the third "claim" suggests to me that they weren't given explicit setup knowledge regarding the modifier, and if one of them has the modifier in their fake-claim, they didn't figure out what it meant (it's not obvious, as bert proved, and would be even less obvious to scum who wouldn't have it on their real PM despite lacking maneuver gear).

Every word of this is a lie. It's obvious that scum (you and probably Plum) knew all of this from the start. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that scum wouldn't understand this modifier, either from fake claims or from their own roles. This is just you pretending not to have had this information that you clearly had when formulating this plan.

It's a "danger" that scum knows this, except that you and Plum both declared that such a situation was impossible. That nobody jumped on being the third claim means nobody wanted to out themselves, because town didn't really understand the implications of the modifier, while scum did. That's why town didn't bring it up. You did. Because you're scum and wanted to use this extra information you had to your advantage. It had to be early before there was a flip and the weak status became common knowledge. The moment the weak miller claim came out, you jumped on it.

...
It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means ...

This is my favorite thing that plum has said. If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

Except for the part where it's obviously a lie and you try to milk it super hard for townpoints, yeah, no scum motivation at all.

At least one of these two is scum. The other might just be playing into scum's hands rather than being their buddy. But it really looks like buddies to me, especially the way Plum has gotten more and more eager to support Kagami as she goes on. You can see Plum go from confusion to retroactive endorsement. They tried a gambit. It didn't work. It tipped their hand.

[Kagami]

@f16,

Why shouldn't we lynch you today, Paschendale?

this was where i started thinking plum scum

although none of plum's earlier posts were all that great, this is just the type of question i hate the most. i've never seen a town player ask this sort of question, and i can recall examples of scum players using it (like, most recently, pa in FEA)

also didn't like #180. i'm pretty sure you've read imperishable night, or at least skimmed the important parts. how do you not see similarities to my play re varsoon/pie there?

I'm always disappointed when I research these tells. Quick search of "Why shouldn't we lynch you" gives the following results (ignoring ongoing games):

PA in emblem: scum
Wake in M&M: town
Paperscraps in newbie 1416: town
Gibberish in newbie 1416 (shortly after PS): scum
Amrun in Open 507: town
Elyse in Open 496: town
DrP in newbie 1347: town
Psyche in Mini 1420: scum
Majiffy in NY 161: town
IceNinja in Mini 1398: town

list goes on. Obviously, these are divorced from their context, but it looks pretty null.

[zMuffinMan]

If weak means not having gear, than a goon would necessarily have it. It's an obvious lie that only town could have it. And one that you dutifully repeat.

i highly doubt there are "goons" in the traditional sense in this game. when a "town vanilla" is essentially a 1-shot commuter, i doubt goons are just goons in the sense you're thinking

also, i'm thinking this is a rather power-heavy game, so i doubt there are any weak scum. so i could easily see scum not knowing about the weak modifier, and i could easily understand kagami thinking this as town

tbh the mod announcement actually has me thinking scum

didn't

know about the weak modifier, and that was a sort of intervention to stop people being read as town unfairly. normally a mod wouldn't interject with something like that...

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

Obviously, these are divorced from their context

a quick scan over some of those games suggests you're right about this! those are divorced of their context

[Kagami]

If it's 10-3, town needs some power, but not a crazy amount. Something like 2 ICs of town-power is enough for balance, which maneuver gear alone would easily satisfy. If your statements about the setup are correct, scum likely has somewhat powerful roles of their own.

I interpret the mod announcement in the same way, but myko might be right that it could go either way. Idk.

Pasch, your stretching hard for lies that aren't there. I haven't said anything that is inconsistent with my beliefs, and I find gambits extremely distasteful.

[Kagami]

Obviously, these are divorced from their context

a quick scan over some of those games suggests you're right about this! those are divorced of their context

You're right that plum's is really out of the blue, whereas most these instances are provoked.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

zMuffinman, what are your thoughts about Pasch?

[zMuffinMan]

You're right that plum's is really out of the blue, whereas most these instances are provoked.

tbh, even without looking at it like that, the tone of the question is just off. "unprovoked" is sort of right, but it's more like, "what is the point of that question?"

i think you're getting too caught up in that anyway. it's really not that big a part of why i think plum is scum (it was the catalyst, i guess, but i really don't like any of plum's posts outside of it either)

also

If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

i don't see your point here. plum-scum may have really known what was being hinted at from the discussion taking place, so "revealing" this is just a truth statement that's really rather null, if anything. i mean, i suppose she

could

have just said nothing about it, but it's a far cry from being any sort of alignment tell.

zMuffinman, what are your thoughts about Pasch?

prob town

[Plum]

Paschendale's entrance is decent.

Explain, please.

@f16,

Why shouldn't we lynch you today, Paschendale?

this was where i started thinking plum scum

although none of plum's earlier posts were all that great, this is just the type of question i hate the most. i've never seen a town player ask this sort of question, and i can recall examples of scum players using it (like, most recently, pa in FEA)

also didn't like #180. i'm pretty sure you've read imperishable night, or at least skimmed the important parts. how do you not see similarities to my play re varsoon/pie there?

That question was a variation of the statement 'you are hella scummy bro and I'd like to redirect more of the conversation towards that subject'. I . . . really don't think I've read anything of Imperishable Night? Sorry?

This isn't even remotely plausible. Scum don't and can't have the Weak modifier; they are Weak by default.

oh, also, i don't really get this part

4. There is a fancy night-only mechanic involving the 3D Maneuver Gear technology from the story!! Human-aligned players will be able to use a limited special ability to avoid Titan actions during the Night, leading to general confusion and misdirection.

This doesn't completely rule out a Titan(-shifter?) having 3DMG, but it certainly implies that the default state is that Human characters have the 3DMG ability and scum do not.

It don't know that anyone thought 'Weak' meant what it usually does - it was pretty clear to me by the time she explained it that it probably meant what she then went on to say it means and that she believed scum didn't have access to the fact that such a modifier would be part of the setup.

That's a weird misrep of your own reaction to the weak claim. And Pie's. And Kaze's. Kaze explicitly invoked the standard meaning. Why are you lying?

Key words here are 'by the time she explained it'. As in, not immediately, but after some of Kagami's cryptic-ish statements and before she stated it explicitly, I made the intuitive leap. And to clarify - from the time Kagami stated with confidence that the modifier wasn't Normal Weak and that scum wouldn't know what it was, I couldn't come up with a usual setup approach that wouldn't involve scum knowledge of what the Weak modifier is. But I hoped Kagami had explicit reason to believe it was the case, that the confidence from which she spoke was based on that information.

Only those who didn't give

any

credence to Kagami's initial statement that Weak wasn't the Normal Weak modifier believed that it must mean what it means in Normal games.

Since the weak modifier isn't based on alignment, explain how this is true. Why are you lying?

Again:

4. There is a fancy night-only mechanic involving the 3D Maneuver Gear technology from the story!! Human-aligned players will be able to use a limited special ability to avoid Titan actions during the Night, leading to general confusion and misdirection.

[Kagami]

If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

i don't see your point here. plum-scum may have really known what was being hinted at from the discussion taking place, so "revealing" this is just a truth statement that's really rather null, if anything. i mean, i suppose she

could

have just said nothing about it, but it's a far cry from being any sort of alignment tell.

My thinking is that scum would be very careful not to tip their hats if they knew. In any case, I'm quite confident that they didn't know. It could very well be that she had a strong, correct suspicion about it, but scum-plum wouldn't be confident enough to claim weakness and risk being outed, so maybe you're right. My feeling is still town-plum.

[Plum]

Whatever. I pretty much figured it out and given that I hoped Kagami was right about scum not knowing, kept my mouth shut and hoped they hadn't pieced it together too. Given that we now know there's no Mod-information reason on Kagami's side to believe scum didn't know about it . . . I still read Kagami-town and Bert-Town.

[mykonian]

and if that isn't the case, it's kagami who was quick of mind. That'd be a nice gambit. Low risk high reward etc. Confirm "just" bert (soz, but you know what I mean) while setting up a fakeclaim straight away, and getting a ton of towncred if nobody is ticked off by you thinking about the setup so much.

it's not out of the question. I know if I was well awake and my fakeclaim was something "weak human" or it was talked about by the mod or anything, it only takes some steady nerves to abuse Bert coming in like he did. I don't know kagami's nerves (yet). I don't think bert would claim the way he did if he were scum.

[Kazekirimaru]

Then why don't you actually explain how this is possible? Cuz I see no way that this benefited town at all. All I see is scum having better choices for night kills. And I wasn't suggesting that you were scummy. I was suggesting that you're missing the obvious.

I think her heart was in the right place. She sounded to me like she genuinely thought she had broke the setup and was about to confirm a slew of townies. And that would have been beneficial for the town.

And you kinda did suggest I was scummy with the "you sound like you're trying really hard to avoid conclusions" bit.

prob town

How is Pasch prob town?

My thinking is that scum would be very careful not to tip their hats if they knew. In any case, I'm quite confident that they didn't know. It could very well be that she had a strong, correct suspicion about it, but scum-plum wouldn't be confident enough to claim weakness and risk being outed, so maybe you're right. My feeling is still town-plum.

Just to clarify - why do you believe scum wouldn't say they knew what weak meant, again?

---

I don't believe the scum faction is "Shape-shifter", by the way. I think I've seen the idea kicked around a bit in the thread. I don't think it is so.

I'm not seeing why Bert is getting townread.

[Kagami]

Because knowledge of what it meant from someone who hadn't claimed weak themselves implies the knowledge came from elsewhere (presumably fake-claims or other information that the mod might give to scum a la sabotage mafia). Scum who had actually gotten this knowledge would be very unlikely to let on, imo.

[Kagami]

and if that isn't the case, it's kagami who was quick of mind. That'd be a nice gambit. Low risk high reward etc. Confirm "just" bert (soz, but you know what I mean) while setting up a fakeclaim straight away, and getting a ton of towncred if nobody is ticked off by you thinking about the setup so much.

it's not out of the question. I know if I was well awake and my fakeclaim was something "weak human" or it was talked about by the mod or anything, it only takes some steady nerves to abuse Bert coming in like he did. I don't know kagami's nerves (yet). I don't think bert would claim the way he did if he were scum.

I would like to think I'm clever enough to do so, but if that were the case, pitoli's post would be a fairly severe violation of neutrality. It would also be very odd that there would only be a single "weak" human that is confusingly attached to the miller status, yet with weak being in a fake-claim.

Bert is town because
-he seems very genuinely confused about the weak thing
-his posts read like a bewildered townie
-I don't think scum would get a weak fake-claim with only one other weak player
-Since scum have been given fake-claims, why would they be given "Weak Human Miller" of all things?