Touhou: Mafia in the Land of Fantasy (Game Over)

[zMuffinMan]

varsoon,

thoughts on gcbc?

[pieguyn]

this is awesome and you should feel awesome

[Varsoon]

varsoon,

thoughts on gcbc?

Dude's scum.

<3

[zMuffinMan]

i actually read that entire case. and i didn't agree with any of it

like, if they are scum, i feel it'd be a case of you being right for all the wrong reasons

you're so deep in your conf bias now that you're seeing what you want to see

[Varsoon]

Probably, it happens a lot to me when I become stuck on the notion of someone being scum.

[zMuffinMan]

What does treating it like a PGO claim mean?

essentially, don't let it reach lylo. a little flexibility here depending on what happens between now and then (if this game even goes near lylo) and how strong my read on him is

We think its highly unlikely that there is both a 1-shot bomb and a 1-shot redirector. Both are powerful volatile roles. Including both makes the setup far too swingy.
Evaluating their play and not the claims, I've found both to be pretty independently scummy. But why would someone actually claim a bomb like that? They wouldn't. So we think thats the lie between the 2

i don't like this post at all. it feels like it's just setting up lynches

[zMuffinMan]

also,

Unvote

@the cok,

thoughts on the game? thoughts on anyone outside of bubba and varsoon? thoughts on life, the universe and everything?

[Varsoon]

I noticed that post as well (about there being no chance of a 1-shot bomb and 1-shot redirect) and I think it relies on too much flimsy logic.

[The Chamber of Kittens]

I noticed that post as well (about there being no chance of a 1-shot bomb and 1-shot redirect) and I think it relies on too much flimsy logic.

You guys were also 2 of my strongest scum reads as I was reading through. Something I said earlier if you care to look back. If it was -only- the claims I doubt I'd have been so sure. Someone willingly claiming bomb at l-6 and sticking with it is a pretty good tiebreaker though. Me saying that I think its likely that exactly 1 of you is scum isn't setting up future lynches, its limiting them.

[Tsukasa]

Sorry I won't be able to post much

@Mod: V/LA 2 days

Mostly LA since I have ALOT of shit to do.

Though I can confidently say that varsoon is 100% town

[pieguyn]

I'm doing a meta dive on Kaze bc I wanna make sure the random questions he's asking isn't based on playstyle. I suck at meta (and this is only like the second time I've tried to do a real meta dive) so bear with me

TOWNGAMES

Micro 273: There is Trouble in Paradise http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=34836
there's really a lack of reactive questioning in his ISO at all here, really. there is also way less walls and when he did wall, he always addressed what he was responding to directly, even if it was in the form of a question. there's many examples (read: the whole ISO), but just one example of it is 114:

"I see you're the type to make jokes when you're nervous."

there was also 183 where he explains the motivation in his questioning. then 217:

"I want to be futile and silly looking, too."

AA:MFA http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34161
there's some wall posting in here, but again his responses directly follow from what he's quoting and it was apparent he is very firm in his stances. he started with this early on in post 108 where he declared an early scumead on Cabd for not doing anything relevant to the gamestate. in the same post he declares another scumread on theslimer3 for trying to discredit RVS. I was most taken aback by post 64 where he asks me to explain my RVS strategy and then in 70 he explains that the reason behind said question was to get insight into my thought process. it shows the town motivation in his questioning and responses to posts is very clear. then he continues with 114 and this continues throughout the whole game.

(ooc: in 272 he calls me for the same voting argument he brought up earlier where my vote didn't match who I was pressuring and I was town in that game)

SCUMGAMES

Micro 277: The Silky http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=34919&f=83
in this game he starts with the questioning early 17 when he questions someone on not putting a vote in RVS. somewhere later down the road (58) he asks a question about YellowKingValley, in response to a question about HayatoBL. I was kind of shocked bc it didn't really have anything to do with what he was quoting. I was also seeing a lot of his stances weren't very firm - in 62 up to 70 he was commenting on a plan on how to use a vengeful shot. he felt really indecisive about the whole thing. it comes up again in 104 when his tone indicates he wasn't sure of what YellowKingValley's plan. it feels like he was trying to make some "realization" to trap YKV into a scumread (he was town)

Newbie 1436 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=31510&f=11
this game seemed like his towngames. then I got to 517 -

"lol. Do you always throw out insults when you feel like people are on to you?"

(towards TSO ) this question feels way like what he's doing here and I didn't see questions like this in his towngames. it's not a firm stance and it doesn't have to really do with much of anything considering it's kind of style based and not really alignment indicative (TSO was town). there was also 542 where he joins a TSO wagon and gives a really shaky stance that's anything but firm. then 763 -

"Cabd why do you use alcohol as an excuse to post abrasively/derply all the time?"

which is another sketchy question. there were firm stances e.g. 576

"Dislike. "Ohey this is/could be town v. scum." This is usually a free pass to push one to lynch and say "Oh, well obviously it's the other one" when they flip town. This gives me bad feels."

but on average there seemed to be less of them

tl;dr:
1. tone isn't alignment indicative for Kaze
2. the way Kaze writes off suspicion isn't alignment indicative
3. town Kaze is on average firmer in his stances
4. town Kaze also has a clear town motivation behind the questions he asks which he isn't afraid to explain
5. scum Kaze asks weird questions about things that aren't alignment indicative. which town Kaze doesn't really do
which makes me lean towards Kaze scum here bc of all the fake questions he was asking that were similar to the ones in newbie 1436.

@Kaze:

I'm well aware I suck at meta. if you wanna help me out and either give me some towngames where you ask the kinds of questions I was bringing up this whole game or explain the motivation behind the questions you were asking, plz do

@zmuffin:

given the kind of failed meta dive I tried to do on you in marketplace where you said I was "seeing what I want to see", can you help me out with this? I assume scum manipulation had a lot to do with that comment but I assume there was at least some truth in it and I don't wanna do the same thing here

[zMuffinMan]

i don't remember the specifics of what happened in marketplace, but if i said you're seeing what you want to see, i likely meant it

the thing about marketplace is i was intentionally manipulating my meta for the entire game up until morph died for the express purpose of fooling morph when they meta-dived me. quite literallly everything i was doing in that game was in an effort to fuck with morph (ctrl+f "meta" here). so i dunno. whatever you noticed about me in marketplace were either intentional things i was doing thinking it was the opposite of what i'd do as scum, or unconscious slips. some of the things you caught onto may have been slips, i don't really remember.

as for whether you're seeing what you want to see with kaze here, i'm probably the last person you should ask about this. the only experience i have with kaze is replacing into his slot as a third party in one game

[UFO]

Hi there.

Can I sub out because I'm really busy in this new school? I have no time. Sorry. :[

[bubbajack8]

Can we lynch Kise slot after?

stop

#1379: I laughed my ass off at this. Where was this when Majiffy was attacking me? How can you prove they are lying?

Varsoon: I love "Why is this scummy" and "why is this wrong" I skimmed over a majority of it, because I have an appointment but it was nice.

#1399 is town.

[Katarina LeBlanc]

I loved Katawa Shoujo.

V/LA for 3 days, typing this with the browser on my PS3 cos no laptop.

Oh and I'm probably gonna ignore Lushydra. I dont care if they scumread me like shit, I just refuse to deal with that noise.

[Kazekirimaru]

@Kaze:

I'm well aware I suck at meta. if you wanna help me out and either give me some towngames where you ask the kinds of questions I was bringing up this whole game or explain the motivation behind the questions you were asking, plz do

Ugggggggghhhhhhhhh. Kill me.

What questions are you referring to?

Why are you putting so much effort into making a case on someone who isn't even your preferred lynch/the recipient of your vote?

[Yukari Yakumo]

Hi there.

Can I sub out because I'm really busy in this new school? I have no time. Sorry. :[

Noted.

[bubbajack8]

Varsoon I finally read through it.

I didn't catch your references either..

"assumed that I was insulting him"

If you don't get the references it looks like you are, especially the painting one. And you admit they are "little-known" references. So why would you use a little know reference that is probably going to be taken as an insult?

But you've both "insulted" each other, like him saying you are using big words words without knowing the meaning. Which you have clearly demonstrated as untrue.

Overall I don't know what to think. I don't think GC_BC Is scum, and you've convinved me you aren't now--- despite my flip-flops.

[Lush Life]

Can we lynch Kise slot after?

Mebbe.

If we could continue on with either a bubba or pie lynch that'd be fantastic.

Definitely bubba and not pie.

[Varsoon]

Katawa Shoujo was really cute. I followed the development of it from its inception, so I was really happy to see the finished product. I've only completed Rin and Kenji's path so far, but I'll probably play Lily's next. Rainbow Wizard is terrifying, though.

@Pie: Damn straight, that's the Pie I know and love. Good work, man. I like Kaze a lot as a player, but I don't know what to think of him this game. I interacted with him a bit to see how he responded to buddying, and, ultimately, I got that he wasn't willing to buddy me hard in response, but didn't push me away either. He also stuck to his scumread on you, Pie, so I figure that he's either really sure of himself or really pushing for the mislynch as scum.

@Kittens: Ah, that makes sense. I don't really like the bomb claim from Bulba, but I really just don't like claims at all anyway. It's almost always against town utility to claim. I regret doing so in this game, but my role wasn't incredibly strong and was likely anti-town utility in the first place. As far as PoE of one of us being scum, I hope that my play will reflect that it's not me. I'm not sure that Bubba is scum, mostly from PoE/Wagon Analysis.

@Bubba: I explained that--it was a metatextual joke. Wake claimed I was using words to mask that I didn't know things. The reality is that I did know these things. So, to further play on that irony, I used more words that I knew Wake would likely misinterpret. Does that make sense?
I'm aware we've both insulted each other. I'd quite like it to stop. The game is what is important, and I think it's fairly anti-town to focus on the player versus player aspects instead of the game-relevant content, because it trivializes what is actually there. This happened between Amrun and I in Death's Diner Mafia, and I was given a warning by the mod because of the player v player conflict that was happening. The reality was that Amrun was scum and was misrepresenting my case on her as an insult to her person rather than her play. This made people ignore my case, which helped scum win that game.

There's a decent possibility that GCBC is town and my confbias keeps me from seeing that, while my pushes on him make him believe that I'm scum because of 'em. I'm sold on GCBC scum, but the only truth in this game are corpses.

[Lush Life]

Deadline is in just over a week.

Major wagons:
>bubbajack8 (L-5): Lush Life | Katarina LeBlanc | Kazekirimaru | Messiah Complex | Tsukasa | Chamber of Kittens
pieguyn (L-7): Mac | Kise | Amaranth | GoodCop_BadCop
GoodCop_BadCop (L-7): Jaqen Hghar | Kagami | pieguyn | Varsoon

If your vote isn't in the above, find a place for it.

[bubbajack8]

That awkward moment when I think all 3 of those slots are town.

[Varsoon]

inb4 GCBC says because you 'think' they're town, and you don't 'know' you're town, it's a scumslip

[pieguyn]

Ugggggggghhhhhhhhh. Kill me.

What questions are you referring to?

so you saw you couldn't dodge my points any further and thus have to face me directly?

anyway here

Kagami! Come out and play! You're active elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure you're not the type to activelurk as town. Am I finally seeing scum!Kagami?

You really haven't noted anything interesting yet? I find that difficult to believe. Have you not had a single read or "oh, that's odd!" twinge in all these pages?

So, why not ask some probing questions instead of just watching the pages pass by?

Why did you join this game if you're not willing to commit for a while?

What an odd thing to say. Isn't it a bit early to start getting defensive?

Can you quote a completed town game where you've made an assessment in this fashion? Thank you.

Have you been reading the game or have you just been using it to yell at Jiffy?

I see this comment made a lot more from scum than town, by the way.

just to be clear let me explain my point again since looking back I didn't fully explain it
these are all very easy angles to push. from what I can tell, town you might make comments on them but you never ask questions like this or try to develop said easy angles. instead you just declare one of your firm stances and call it a day. my conclusion is that when you're scum you want to appear busy so you need to spend more time to develop these easy angles with these shit questions to look like you're legitimately scumhunting and trap people into scumreads. when you're town you don't bother and you come up with way better and more relevant ideas

town you: "I see you're the type to make jokes when you're nervous." <- this is a firm stance and you elave it at that
scum you and what you're doing in this game: "lol. Do you always throw out insults when you feel like people are on to you?" <- here you're actively pushing this easy angle to set up all the shit, look busy when you're really doing nothing, and potentially trap people into scumreads.
just as an example, I'd expect town-you to go
"I see you're not reading the game and are just using it to yell at Jiffy."
and not
"Have you been reading the game or have you just been using it to yell at Jiffy?"

there's also this blatant defense of GCBC

The case on Cabd? fucking balls. I can't tell how many of you are just foolishly following the sewage Jaqen is spewing out and how many are scum taking the opportunity to build up on the wagon, but you're all definitely ridiculous and/or scum. I think a lot of the people on the wagon in question are actually both! Notice how quickly it moved?

which fits with the "follow the IC" idea Varsoon put out there. kaze + GCBC team anyone?

Why are you putting so much effort into making a case on someone who isn't even your preferred lynch/the recipient of your vote?

I love how this has absolutely nothing to do with anything whatsoever. how does this have anything to do with my case on you? why does the fact that my vote isn't on you or that I prefer to lynch GCBC today make my case any less valid? this is a blatant deflection

not to mention you still haven't justified your statement that "the idea that votes don't match who I'm pressuring comes more from scum than town!!1" which is p much what this whole statement is based on isn't it? fail

incidentally, tbh after this shit response my scumread on you is stronger than GCBC. you were trying to coast through D1 and avoid suspicion but now that I've posted a painfully obvious meta case on you it's not going to work anymore ~ but idk if I can swing a wagon on you

[Yukari Yakumo]

bump