Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[RayFrost]

You didn't say your opinion regarding what I wrote about Ika, you fence sat.

Please give an actual opinion regarding the points I make, whether you feel they have weight, and whether you agree or disagree with them.

[AbboTT]

Honestly I had just skimmed it. Uno momento.

[RayFrost]

Never skim my shit again if you intend to talk about it.

I give long posts because I have a lot to say that I want read, not because I like putting a bunch of words on a page to make myself feel warm and cuddly inside.

[AbboTT]

I know it. Didn't mean any disrespect. I felt the beginning of your post was directed at me. I was more interested in that than the bit about ika because ika is boring to me at the moment.

Now I'm all read up. I'm not going to write a point-by-point on my phone, but I'll come back to it.

Here's the gist: I disagree with most of the points you made. Generally speaking, it's not based on your conclusions so much as your assumptions. Meaning, I feel you are twisting his words in a few places.

Now, I don't think you're doing that on purpose. You're just interpreting him differently than I am. I'm getting town-vibes from you, for what that's worth.

Warning, semi off-topic theory discussion incoming:

Spoiler:

I adamantly disagree about the confidence issue.

Of course your second half was more convincing. But why are you so concerned with convincing? I know it's important to form consensus, but are you honestly that convinced yourself? If you could push a button and flip him right now, would you?

I just don't like using up credibility this early in the game on a guess. "Trust me guys, I'm really sure of this" will work once, but then people will start ignoring you.

Not trying to tell you how to play the game, I'm just trying to explain my thought process.

[AbboTT]

Woah. What the heck did I do to my spoiler tag? :S

@Mod, would you please give me a hand? Sorry man.

[RayFrost]

You're acting as if displaying confidence is inherently using up credibility. It doesn't. Consistently confident type players don't suddenly start getting ignored. If you're actively vocal and confident, you get more people to respond to you because they react to you as if you're full on. This provides greater depth to getting read son the reactions, etc, etc, etc. And of course I wouldn't just flip someone five pages in but that doesn't mean I should just be gentle. Pushing hard gets stronger reactions with which one gets stronger reads. It helps convince people, it makes you seem less wishy washy, it promotes town reads on you (which is good regardless of alignment), makes you seem more vocal with the same level of content (again, town reads are good regardless of alignment), provides more pressure on the people or person being pressured, and opens up the way to any level of discussion that might be necessary to get reads.

It even has helped with this exchange, since you're going to reply to what I said.

[AbboTT]

No, the credibility is used up when it turns out you were wrong. The old story of the boy who cried wolf. That's all I'm saying.

Forceful is good. Confidence is fine if you really believe what you're saying. It's over-confidence that bugs me. Pretending like you _know_ something when in reality you just have a suspicion or a hunch.

Remember this started as a conversation about Nacho and his posts early in the game where he made snap decisions and presented them as fact. If I recall correctly he even directed one at you. "You probably shouldn't vote for town"

Content-less posturing.

[TierShift]

Abbott, why do you say wagons are the way out of RVS, then place a lone vote?

Fair question, but you got it backwards. I placed a vote, started a wagon that eventually ran all the way up to L-1, and _then_ said that wagons are the way out of RVS.

Don't get it twisted, boo.

I didn't twist shit, you do. You placed a lone vote while expressing wagons are good. Why didn't you vote emerald, the wagon?
Why did you unvote-revote nacho without anything in between?
Your fencesitting on rayfrost's ika read troubles me. You are avoiding saying things that can be used against you later which is horrid, you post a lot, but you don't really participate.

That said, my vote on nacho still sits just fine because of the damn lazy case on abbott.

Rayfrost, you might consider not walling and especially not just repeating everything you said just before because it's freaking annoying. I think very little in your read is an actual scumtell and the part that is, the hopping around to sheep anything that comes off, is something more appliccable to bjc than to ika, because in ika's case it at least looks genuine.

[AbboTT]

Emerald was not a wagon when I placed my vote. Only two votes had been placed in the game and neither of them were on ED.

If you're asking why I didn't switch to jump on the wagon, it's because I was committed to pressuring nacho. As a rule I like to feel ICs out as a first order of business. I would have gotten involved with ED if I thought it was compelling.

I'm not trying to be crafty here, I just don't understand.

I unvoted because he had just been at L-1 and I was a page and a half behind on reading. I was just voting him out of RVS. As I said before, I didn't have much of a read on him at all. Then I read his response which prompted me to move my vote back to him.

He deserves to be where he is in the vote count. So far he's just been digging a hole for himself.

[RayFrost]

TiersofShifty: I specifically repeated what I said before to display a difference in style to make a point about confidence. I said so in the post you're complaining about. I will write as much as I want.

Please stop trying to teach/tell me how to play the game. It's coming across condescending. And I so do dislike when someone condescends to me.

I completely disagree that it looks genuine on his part. Everything in his posting reads as "straining" rather than "genuine effort" to me.

And how is his double standard regarding me / nacho NOT at all scummy? His biggest reason for voting nacho is explicitly coasting (aka a lack of content and just sidling by) while nacho is an experienced player. I am equally as experienced (if we look at the number of games I might actually be *more* experienced), and I had at the time no content from which he could base a read. Yet he puts me, WITHOUT ANY REASONS, as a slightly townish (that's what null-town is) read.

And I swear if he tries to use the content I have now as an excuse for his previous read I will rain down

so

much unholy fire.

That said, you are stating that you feel a scumtell is applicable to bjc. Do you feel it's the only applicable scumtell and are you actually applying it? What is your read, as of now, on bjc?

Why do you feel that "coasting" is a valid scumtell four pages into a game wherein the IC has actually made content posts despite a sizable portion of the playerlist not even being present? If other people don't post content, how do you expect nacho to post content?

How do you actually feel about nacho's posting since your vote? Your only real reply to it is basically "lol nacho nobody's gonna follow your case cuz we expect more from you tho I see your point" which completely ignores his defense and is a soft dismissal of his scumhunting content. I want a hard, clear-cut statement of your feelings on whether nacho is still the scummiest player in the game, who you think is second most scummy, and why.

[TierShift]

Yeah okay now stop fencesitting on rayfrosts ika read and give some damn opinions on someone else than nacho
P-edit:
Sorry, I hate walls. But, if you really want to, go ahead, but there's a chance I might skip them.

I have no idea why ika put you as null-town, don't ask me. But I don't think there's a double standard. You have not been pretending to be in touch with this game, you had hardly posted at all at that point. Nacho has posted but he did it in an observing manner rather than an involved one, which was not to my liking (and possibly not to ika's either)

I don't think 'coasting' is a valid scumtell, which by the way is not what I accused nacho of. And I don't agree that there isn't content to talk about. You are talking about content, I'm talking about content, nacho is too. But I don't like the way in which he does that.

You completely misrep my response to nacho's read. What I tried to say is that I found the content of his read rather weak but that he presents his cases in such a convincing way that many will sheep. I personally think the case was lazy and that nacho can do much more if he's town.

About my bjc read, I'm not sure about him. He puts in effort, but he's just sheeping everything that comes along. Give me some more time here.

For now, I don't have strong scumreads. I think abbott would take the top spot for reasons in the previous post.
Then nacho and that's where I'm keeping my vote because I want to see more from him.

[bjc]

Spoiler:

Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...

I will also

unvote; vote: Abott

Just sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and

suddenly follow the wagon

? Kay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.

VOTE: bcj

To follow the wagon! Like I posted last night I don't have any great reads right now, I'll have plenty of time to do that stuff after Physics. Expect a post between 10-12:30 PM.

im still looking at abbott but bjc wanting for quick-lynch is becomign troublesome

bjc, why do you want quick-lynch? why are you sheeping? please elaborate on your scum read on abbott.

Will do sir. However, like I posted, I am usually in favor of a lynch day one regardless of how long the game has been unless I feel like there's someone better we can get, or that the person targeted is very likely to come up town (IMO). How likely is it we're going to lynch scum and not a newb that was piled on for a slip-up?

Hey, nacho. Good to have you in here. I agree that there maybe is a slight hint of fencesitting in abbott's play, but it's way too early to do your famous cases and get all these newbies to believe you have found scum already. They see you a a god, yaknow

Ika, agreed, bjc's willingness to sheep is quite bothersome.

Bjc, why do you sheep so much?

See above.

Mini wall.

[RayFrost]

Not even remotely a wall.

And I dislike you ignoring my posting. RESPOND TO IT OR PERISH

[bjc]

I just looked for people who had direct questions for me, maybe I missed yours. Like I said, I've got Physics and I still have to get ready lol. I'll be back by 10:00 AM central time (US).

[RayFrost]

Well my post's long so I guess it's okay. Go ahead on to physics class

[TierShift]

Bjc, I understand why you would want to lynch someone and we are definitely gonna do that. But would you lynch really anyone? Not just your scumreads? Do you have any or are you still hopping?

[bjc]

Bjc, I understand why you would want to lynch someone and we are definitely gonna do that. But would you lynch really anyone? Not just your scumreads? Do you have any or are you still hopping?

Will do sir. However, like I posted,

I am usually in favor of a lynch day one regardless of how long the game has been unless I feel like there's someone better we can get, or that the person targeted is very likely to come up town (IMO).

How likely is it we're going to lynch scum and not a newb that was piled on for a slip-up?

Let me clarify what I mean here. I do not mean that I'm willing to lynch anyone. Obviously people I think are very likely to flip town (people I feel aren't worth lynching yet) I won't support. If there is a person that a near-majority think is scum, I'll join them if I don't think otherwise

or

if I believe there is a much bigger threat/target.

Overall, I'm not going to oppose many D1 candidates, unless it's me or someone coming off (to me) as town.

As for your second question, I just got back to my dorm. So let me go through the thread in detail.

[bjc]

I've reached page 5, I can't guarantee I'll finish before my next class. If not, I won't be able to post what I've got coming until the afternoon/evening. Sorry.

[ika]

-snip-

It is more of my playstyle. If you want to cram a lynch down me then go ahead, it will just come back to you. I know there is no "mayeb this maybe that" but when you have the air of uncertainty, you have to go with guts and what you know. Like right here, your post is good and informative, but have you isoed me and read many of my other posts?

This is a game of being certain and uncertainty is bad. However I will do this a lot. It is one of my flaws that i have. Wehn i become certain i will stick with it. as of right now i am still tryong to gether information and figure things out. That is why i am so indecicive right now.

I rather have a dead-lock confidence on something then going blindly into it.

[ika]

In nacho's 95 he scolds me for supposedly demanding content from him and then, in the same post, invites ika to call him out if he isn't paying enough attention to the game.

Curious.

The two are flat out not the same thing.

"Call me out if you think I'm neglecting posting in this game" is different from calling you out on posting but not providing any content with said posting. I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

It boils down to "the ic isn't playing like a deity? waht oh noes what could possibly be the reason for him not being the most active person with every post brimming with beauty and genius? he's scum coasting, that's it! got im guys!" and you essentially omgus'ing the hell out of him. If ika weren't so obviously scum, I'd probably want you to be lynched for great justice.

This post wants me to see a nacho/rayfrost flip now.

lets start another counterwagon on ray and see how it goes

VOTE: rayfrost

how about you explain to me why you felt the need to defend nacho when hes capable of doing it himself?

[bjc]

Okay. Up to post #109:

Spoiler:

-AboTT's posts #47 and #53 do not sit well with me. In post 47 there is that "Oh look lots of content yay!" line.

-Nacho's post #98 captures what I want to say on that matter. In post 53 he continues without really adding much to the game while focusing on weaker things in the game, as Nacho posted in the linked post.

-Robw's post #54 that still has no explanation at all isn't good either.

-Here, at post #59 ED first speaks (in detail) of the perceived ika-bjc scumbuddying. Just thought I'd throw that in here, I don't have much to talk about here.

-LMB jumps out with this: #70 again with the scumbuddying stuff. I guess I can excuse this as an introductory post, but then...
-In comes LMB out of nowhere (109) I'd like to see more talk by LMB rather than just vote someone because they changed their vote.

-Moving on: ika votes AboTT promising future content on the matter in post #72, I'm curious if that ever came through (it hasn't up to post 109).

-104 my vote and the resulting sheeping claims by other. I realize ahead of time that those votes are going to draw attention.

In summary:

Up to this point both AboTT and LMB come across as scum to me.

Also,

Town
bjc (me)
RayFrost -or-
ika -or-
ED -or-
Nacho
Tier
Rob
LMB -or-
AboTT
Scum

[TierShift]

Explain the rayfrost read.

[RayFrost]

I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

how about you explain to me why you felt the need to defend nacho when hes capable of doing it himself?

I literally answer this question in the post you quote.

[ika]

I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

how about you explain to me why you felt the need to defend nacho when hes capable of doing it himself?

I literally answer this question in the post you quote.

So when I flip town what will you do? I like to look at options and what could fit and what could not. Your reasoning on me is vaild but you seemed to have crammed it down that im scum becasue of my playstyle. I am merly trying to get a better grasp at why you felt the need to defned him.

[GuyInFreezer]

bump