Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)

[ActionDan]

votehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehimvotehim

Dan might be mafia. his posts look sort of town, but I'm not seeing Dan-town specifically here.

Hey now

[ActionDan]

VOTE: cephir

[ActionDan]

In case there was any confusion I'm playing this game by myself. At least for a while

[Cephrir]

pieguy is presenting an argument

first, this is... like... a borderline fucking retarded answer. "you're sure pieguy is scum and it's too early to be sure of anything so you're scum, but pieguy being sure of you and mastin doesn't mean anything because he's presenting an argument!"

like, really? that's how you defend your stance here?

second, so what? do you think scum is more or less likely to try to blend in by making up reasons for their suspicion? and if you respond by saying something along the lines of "WIFOM", i'm just going to ignore you for the rest of the game. your reads are awful

also, saying pieguy is presenting an "argument" is meh, especially when the basis for his "argument" is similar to the reasons mastin was wagoned in xenogears

He doesn't seem as certain as you and I could imagine his mind changing

Muffin can be scum just for being this sure of anything before page 20

i was thinking about this

have you never seen people be sure of a read before p20?

Not without being able to explain it to my satisfaction and in a large

not yelling "X is town Y is scum nothing will change my mind about this"

also how much of my posts are you reading? because i have pretty clearly explained where the read on pieguy comes from here, here and here

just because i'm not breaking down every single post he makes and explaining why he's scum because of it, doesn't mean i don't have reasons to think he's scum.

it is largely a meta-based read. there are differences in how he plays as scum and town, and i am pretty sure this is his scum game. i don't really expect anyone to be convinced by me saying this, but you can compare and contrast how he talks in games he's town yourself (if you're any good at reading tone and attitude, and i don't think you are based on your current reads, so maybe it's a long shot you'll actually be able to do this)

I just looked at those posts again and I still don't see much more than 'because meta'. If you want me to believe you you're going to have to explain the differences to me more carefully. I'm shit at meta but I accept summaries. You probably won't convince me pie is scum or mastin is town but you might convince me you aren't scum.

I have no idea what AFB is doing or why but that seems to be the name of this game. Besides, we wouldn't be playing mafia if I wasn't a D1 wagon, so I guess we might as well get it out of the way now.

[macmollie]

did i do it right?

this man is srsbzns

[Angry Frat BROs]

I have no idea what AFB is doing or why but that seems to be the name of this game. Besides, we wouldn't be playing mafia if I wasn't a D1 wagon, so I guess we might as well get it out of the way now.

This is scum. Lynch this.

[Cephrir]

You know, you're beginning to get on my nerves.

[macmollie]

decided to start reading so I can actually catchup with mollie and complete xeno trio.

pie/kaze back & forth is strange. not so much kaze's posting but pies, especially agreeing with kaze about brian so quickly when his line of question appeared to be questioning kaze on his brian vote. plus I'm not so sure about the "scum are more aware of supersaints" theory he seems to be floating around in this series of posts.

Skull's first wall post in #57 doesn't really do much, doesn't ask alot of probing questions, just doesn't tickle my fancy. not sure why there are townreads being dished out there?

muffin on page 5 saddened me. I think it might be something to do with not pushing his scumread on pie dunno if I should treat that as RVSbantz or not. think I may just do that and hope he's town.

awful entrance from aegor. added to the scumpile 4 sure. reasons being he didn't explain the vote probably because he didn't want to claim scum sheeping cephrir. CAUGHT.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

in fact your reads look pretty shitty at the moment, glad cabd is calling you out on it at the bottom of 9.

holy fuck you really are scum
vote: mastin

also, where are you currently at with zmuffin?

what is the purpose of this line of questioning, pieguy? because the way I see it is you solidifying a scumread on mastin then asking him for a read which doesn't really make sense?

up to page 13 and that's all for now folks

right now I'm seeing pieguy and aegor as strong scumreads, will have to sync up with mollie before voting. see what the better half of this hydra says!

[mastin2]

You have yet to give any reason for thinking AFB and sangres are town despite having been asked multiple times. And frankly I don't think you can, the latter in particular have done precisely nothing unfakeable or actually even particularly town on a surface level.

AFB is town because this is their towngame through-and-through. Their mindset is town, their posting is town, and critically, their thought process largely matches up with my own. Their insights look like solid scumhunting, and overall, I don't see any manipulation in their posting.

Sangres is town mostly because of their interactions with others. I pick up the exact same feeling of them that I did in Walking Dead, in that they're being town, but in their more subtle way. Their posting could have manipulation in it, but doesn't feel like it does; it feels more like the type of analysis that comes from a ffery/Nacho hybrid style. (And, yes, their posting does come across as exactly what they're a hydra of. It's not quite Nacho but not quite ffery, lingering somewhere between.)

Your wagon is scum? What an original insight!

Egos aside, yes, the wagon on me is scum. Not nearly as scum-filled as my ego wants it to be, but the wagon on me is, simply put, objectively bad. The speed of the wagon is bad, the reasoning behind it is pretty dang weak, most of the players on it are people I cast suspicion onto (making their votes largely OMGUSy), and beyond that, are acting suspicious in areas other than their vote on me, anyway.

There's still no reason for your stupid kaze-me-aegor dichotomy and you seem to think ignoring me will make that fact go away.

The reasoning is because of your interaction with Kaze. Aegor's looked like it could be from a scumbuddy. (I am now thinking Kaze and Aegor are both town.) Yours looked like it came from scum, buddying town.

cephir why you so cranky

Because he's probably scum?

DESPITE knowing you're likely wrong, you make no mention of this whatsoever, and instead DECLARE A LYNCH POOL 24 HOURS INTO THE GAME. whereas a town you would take extra care to make sure everyone knows your reads might be all wrong, explicitly because there's a good chance they're all wrong. you have said before that town wins by maintaining a high level of transparency and a high flow of information. *blahblahextraranting*

Thing is, you're pushing the idea that I'm not being transparent with these things, that I'm not mentioning the doubt, but the thing about that is...well...it's kinda obvious. I haven't been mentioning the doubt specifically

because

of the transparency. It's there in my posts. I don't need to say it every single time when it's laid out. You also are pushing the idea that "OMG reads list = absolute!", when you of all people would know my reads lists change...a lot.

pieguy still not town

Indeed. Though that post is admittedly a much better display, it is still not his town self. Not even close.

Unlike Mastin who judges immediately and is probably wrong/scum

On the contrary, I am constantly changing my mind on everything. Continuously passing "judgment", every time I post, every day I read, at all times, continuing to update. That doesn't mean I change my judgments every time; my townreads on zMuff/MafiaSSK/AFB/Sangres don't waver nor does my scumread on pie. But I'm not turning a blind eye to their posting, contrary to what you're saying.

(Also, MS is scum for this post.)

What does Scum SSK look like? For those of us who aren't so intimately familiar with his meta, what should we be looking for?

It's...kinda difficult to explain. It's not so much lurking, but basically...a town SSK is a player generally underestimated, who makes good analysis and good insight for those paying attention. That, he's showed. Its absence is his scumgame. Basically, town-him is analytical; scum-him is survivalistic. This is not him surviving. But I think this is a very poor explanation of it. Just...read some of his town games and compare them to his scum games. They're nothing alike.

(Also, Skull's ridiculously town. Like, seriously, RIDICULOUSLY town.)

that masonry didn't last long

Yes, because it was one likely formed by scum, in contrast to ours.

VOTE: Cephrir
All aboard that scum wagon.

P-edit: Join me, bus for cred before its too late.

Cephrir is probably scum, yes, but not certainly scum. For me, that's pie. What do you think of him?

Dan might be mafia. his posts look sort of town, but I'm not seeing Dan-town specifically here.

Get out of my head. >_<

pie/kaze back & forth is strange. not so much kaze's posting but pies, especially agreeing with kaze about brian so quickly when his line of question appeared to be questioning kaze on his brian vote. plus I'm not so sure about the "scum are more aware of supersaints" theory he seems to be floating around in this series of posts.

(This is probably because pie is scum and kaze likely-town.)

Skull's first wall post in #57 doesn't really do much, doesn't ask alot of probing questions, just doesn't tickle my fancy. not sure why there are townreads being dished out there?

Basically, this is Skull's towngame. Skull's post might not have done much, but read the tone behind it--it was town trying to do something, rather than scum fully aware they were doing nothing.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

Because you're town? Like I said. I'm reasonably certain this is your towngame, and that your entrance was town. One post, ten posts, doesn't matter.

[Cabd]

No, YOU need to give me one of your patented walls'o'text telling me what the baseline for dantown and danscum entry posts is; and how specifically this matches the town baseline more. This is a team game, not a "stroke mastin's inflated ego" game.

It feels like Walking Dead and that one New York game, not Pinkmin?

Like. That's what I've got. That it felt like his more casual scumhunting self, not his scum self.

I take back my ActionDan townread, by the way, on grounds of him being a lurker.

Dan might be mafia. his posts look sort of town, but I'm not seeing Dan-town specifically here.

Get out of my head. >_<

This is not a natural progression of reads.

[Kazekirimaru]

Post #416 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:44 pm

Post #417 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:44 pm

you should have spaced this out by like at least 5 minutes, pie

rookie scum mistake

This isn't a thing. You must be joking.

the difference is that i'm town and you're not

it's funny watching how you react

I really don't think you sound so hot right now.

Muffin can be scum just for being this sure of anything before page 20, particularly something nonsensical.

I don't really agree with this line of thinking. I've been sure of scum from page 1(and correct) a few times. Sometimes it just clicks.

What does Scum SSK look like? For those of us who aren't so intimately familiar with his meta, what should we be looking for?

Activity.

(I honestly can't read him that well.)

also i just iso'd myself and it is shitty lmao!

Oh my God. What the fuck are you doing?

Is this

what

What?

Are you serious right now?

I understand your metaphor completely. I simply completely reject the notion that scum would not join the wagon.

So adamant. Anything's possible, you know.

So you don't care whether anyone else believes your laughable case on me? What are you going to do, lynch me all by yourself? You have fun with that.

I'm not sure how I feel about your confrontational attitude here.

VOTE: ms I don't think you understood my request

Really?

Mollie is confirmed town.

?

(Also, MS is scum for this post.)

I can see this.

(Also, Skull's ridiculously town. Like, seriously, RIDICULOUSLY town.)

I don't quite see this.

---

My vote is here, now.

VOTE: Muffin

Someone explain Cephrir scum to me, please. I must have missed the damning evidence somehow.

[Cephrir]

You have yet to give any reason for thinking AFB and sangres are town despite having been asked multiple times. And frankly I don't think you can, the latter in particular have done precisely nothing unfakeable or actually even particularly town on a surface level.

AFB is town because this is their towngame through-and-through. Their mindset is town, their posting is town, and critically, their thought process largely matches up with my own. Their insights look like solid scumhunting, and overall, I don't see any manipulation in their posting.

Sangres is town mostly because of their interactions with others. I pick up the exact same feeling of them that I did in Walking Dead, in that they're being town, but in their more subtle way. Their posting could have manipulation in it, but doesn't feel like it does; it feels more like the type of analysis that comes from a ffery/Nacho hybrid style. (And, yes, their posting does come across as exactly what they're a hydra of. It's not quite Nacho but not quite ffery, lingering somewhere between.)

I get how you can think this about AFB now but I still think the read was premature.

This paragraph about sangres is a lot of words that don't say very much. But suffice to say I don't agree, not to mention I don't think Nacho is even here yet? Also, would it be scummy if they didn't sound like a combination between themselves? I mean, yes, if Nacho was posting and ffery wasn't I would probably vote them, but in a void.

Your wagon is scum? What an original insight!

Egos aside, yes, the wagon on me is scum. Not nearly as scum-filled as my ego wants it to be, but the wagon on me is, simply put, objectively bad. The speed of the wagon is bad, the reasoning behind it is pretty dang weak, most of the players on it are people I cast suspicion onto (making their votes largely OMGUSy), and beyond that, are acting suspicious in areas other than their vote on me, anyway.

You are not the voice of objectivity. Don't pretend to be.

Wagon speed does not necessarily mean anything, and it's better than any reasoning you have.

Off the top of my head I would question the cause-effect of there being a lot of people on the wagon you allegedly suspect (see: Metal Sonic, below)

There's still no reason for your stupid kaze-me-aegor dichotomy and you seem to think ignoring me will make that fact go away.

The reasoning is because of your interaction with Kaze. Aegor's looked like it could be from a scumbuddy. (I am now thinking Kaze and Aegor are both town.) Yours looked like it came from scum, buddying town.

Okay but

what about it looked like scum buddying town

and how does that make Aegor's alignment dependent on mine

cephir why you so cranky

Because he's probably scum?

I get emotional when I feel like no one is listening to me.

pieguy still not town

Indeed. Though that post is admittedly a much better display, it is still not his town self. Not even close.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy notttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Unlike Mastin who judges immediately and is probably wrong/scum

On the contrary, I am constantly changing my mind on everything. Continuously passing "judgment", every time I post, every day I read, at all times, continuing to update. That doesn't mean I change my judgments every time; my townreads on zMuff/MafiaSSK/AFB/Sangres don't waver nor does my scumread on pie. But I'm not turning a blind eye to their posting, contrary to what you're saying.

(Also, MS is scum for this post.)

You keep insisting your reads are open to change but you also keep stating these reads that aren't going to change, some of which have minimal basis (I would keep complaining about townreading mafiassk on 2 useless posts but obviously no one cares and theyre content to let you just say 'lolmeta')

What does Scum SSK look like? For those of us who aren't so intimately familiar with his meta, what should we be looking for?

It's...kinda difficult to explain. It's not so much lurking, but basically...a town SSK is a player generally underestimated, who makes good analysis and good insight for those paying attention. That, he's showed. Its absence is his scumgame. Basically, town-him is analytical; scum-him is survivalistic. This is not him surviving. But I think this is a very poor explanation of it. Just...read some of his town games and compare them to his scum games. They're nothing alike.

(Also, Skull's ridiculously town. Like, seriously, RIDICULOUSLY town.)

And... you call what he's done so far good analysis?

(Yes, yes he is.)

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

Because you're town? Like I said. I'm reasonably certain this is your towngame, and that your entrance was town. One post, ten posts, doesn't matter.

This isn't an answer

[Cephrir]

Muffin can be scum just for being this sure of anything before page 20, particularly something nonsensical.

I don't really agree with this line of thinking. I've been sure of scum from page 1(and correct) a few times. Sometimes it just clicks.

=/

This never happens to me

I understand your metaphor completely. I simply completely reject the notion that scum would not join the wagon.

So adamant. Anything's possible, you know.

Yeah I missed how bad this was the first time

[Angry Frat BROs]

This is not a natural progression of reads.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

[sangres]

This is not a natural progression of reads.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

Talk about your Mastin read, plz.

[sangres]

This paragraph about sangres is a lot of words that don't say very much. But suffice to say I don't agree, not to mention I don't think Nacho is even here yet? Also, would it be scummy if they didn't sound like a combination between themselves? I mean, yes, if Nacho was posting and ffery wasn't I would probably vote them, but in a void.

Nacho was around right at the start of the game day. Not since page 2. Anyone trying to read Sangres via Nacho meta is on the wrong track right now.

[Cabd]

This is not a natural progression of reads.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

Well between Mac, Myself, and You, we have a 2/3rds majority so your veto can go eat shit.

[sangres]

Town:

AFB
Skullduggery
Cabd
Orcinus
Brian Skies
MacMollie*

Maybe Town:

Metal Sonic
Cephrir*
Kaze
Varsoon
Mastin2*

Null:

MafiaSSK
zmuffin*
pieguyn
Kagami – might move her down because she's pretty damn inactive looking

Maybe Scum:

Aegor
Venmar
Flandre Scarlett

* reads I particularly want to discuss with Nacho

I'm working through my null pile to see if I can move some of them up or down.

This is not a seriatim list.

[Kagami]

I'm here, just sort of actively lurking until I have a good block of time to digest the thread

[Cabd]

Maybe Town:
Metal Sonic <----rely on varsoon to sort if varsoon-town; but this very well could be a fuzzy 1525 again
Cephrir* <---people keep debating this I say town
Kaze <---meh
Varsoon <---I refuse to sort him, his playstyle and mine clash so hard it's hard to get a read
Mastin2* <---I think he drew scum for srs

[sangres]

Maybe Town:
Metal Sonic <----rely on varsoon to sort if varsoon-town; but this very well could be a fuzzy 1525 again
Cephrir* <---people keep debating this I say town
Kaze <---meh
Varsoon <---I refuse to sort him, his playstyle and mine clash so hard it's hard to get a read
Mastin2* <---I think he drew scum for srs

Metal Sonic - I'm thinking more Perpetual MYLO, actually.
Cephrir - I like his unhappiness with my posting.
Kaze - he got better.
Varsoon - I thought about putting him in null. I am not sure exactly why I didn't, except I think he prides himself too much on his scum game to be so minor a presence so far
Mastin - I know you do. I want to go back and look at Imperishable Night. I seem to remember that it was his wishywashy attitude toward our slot during late day 1 that you didn't like.

[Cabd]

Mastin - I know you do. I want to go back and look at Imperishable Night. I seem to remember that it was his wishywashy attitude toward our slot during late day 1 that you didn't like.

No, it was him not fucking shutting up about calling himself obvious town that had me PV him.

[sangres]

I guess it was me who was concerned about his wishywashyness.

[ActionDan]

the fact that no one has quoted soul sister for me is criminal.

do it now

[mastin2]

This paragraph about sangres is a lot of words that don't say very much. But suffice to say I don't agree, not to mention I don't think Nacho is even here yet? Also, would it be scummy if they didn't sound like a combination between themselves? I mean, yes, if Nacho was posting and ffery wasn't I would probably vote them, but in a void.

It did say a lot. It doesn't matter that Nacho's not here, yet. People in hydra tend to pick up trends of their partners, often without realizing it. (I often do so intentionally, though. I became a MUCH stronger player when I intentionally faked being Nacho, and became more like him as an eventual result. ) sangres is not ffery, despite ffery being the one doing the posting. It's sangres, which is ffery plus Nacho. And I said that they were sounding like a combo of their town selves--not a combo of their scum selves. (Granted, have never seen ffery's scum self.)

Okay but

what about it looked like scum buddying town

and how does that make Aegor's alignment dependent on mine

Well, Aegor's posting didn't look like scum-buddying-town, and yours did. If Aegor was buddying, it'd have been scum-buddying-scum, and if so, then you couldn't be scum-buddying-town and your posting didn't look like scum-buddying-scum. I said this already. As for why...just general feeling of your interaction with him? Like, when I see your posting towards him...I don't see a town player naturally vibing with another town player. I see what looks to be scum manipulating.

pieguy still not town

Indeed. Though that post is admittedly a much better display, it is still not his town self. Not even close.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy notttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Gonna steal zMuff's train of thought on me, but turned around. There's a fundamental difference in how pie approaches the game as town and as scum, and how his tone comes across as town and as scum. Pie's a lot like me in that regard. And I'm telling you that this is not the town pie I am familiar with. His posts are not analytical; they're a faking of analysis. They're not meant to find scum; they're meant to lynch town and manipulate town. Even without meta (seriously, look his town games up), that'd be a player I'd be suspicious-as-hell of. With it, a sealed deal. Pie is scum. His posting's forced, his emotions are largely faked, and all-in-all, his posts just don't have the same heart as the town-him.

You keep insisting your reads are open to change but you also keep stating these reads that aren't going to change, some of which have minimal basis.

Yeah? They're not mutually exclusive. My reads can change, have changed, and will continue to evolve. My reads fit the evidence, not the other way around. That doesn't mean they're going to always change, though, because the evidence sometimes doesn't change.

And... you call what he's done so far good analysis?

Yep!

Town:

AFB
Skullduggery
Cabd
Orcinus
Brian Skies
MacMollie*

Maybe Town:

Metal Sonic
Cephrir*
Kaze
Varsoon
Mastin2*

Null:

MafiaSSK
zmuffin*
pieguyn
Kagami – might move her down because she's pretty damn inactive looking

Maybe Scum:

Aegor
Venmar
Flandre Scarlett

* reads I particularly want to discuss with Nacho

I'm working through my null pile to see if I can move some of them up or down.

This is not a seriatim list.

I actually quite like your townreads and maybe-scumreads. (I don't think Aegor's scum anymore, though.) But your null/maybe town lists could use some adjustment. MafiaSSK is town. Trust me on that one. zMuffinman is also town; this is not his scum game. Pie

is

scum, and Kagami basically sure as hell isn't. Also, Cephrir/MS should be at least one rung down.