Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[fferyllt]

I'm back. Something resembling a wall or two are in the works.

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.23

pisskop (L-4):

emeraldemon

bjc (L-4):

TierShift

TierShift (L-1):

RayFrost | Nachomamma8 | bjc | Sakura Hana

Sakura Hana (L-3):

Hayate Yagami | pisskop

Not Voting:

fferyllt

The deadline is in Feburary 7, 5:00 PM EST.
Deadline counter: (expired on 2014-02-07 17:00:00)

[RayFrost]

Posts like this one actually read as genuine. There's very few instances where scum will want to come into the game and basically say "screw you those two guys scummy as hell" as their first reaction. Too much antagonism.

I see no motivation for pisskop to be willing to consider bjc as town in his early posting given that it hurts his position in terms of counterwagons if he's scum.

Putting ika on the scum list along with nacho is also something that can only hurt his position if he's scum. (I'm willing to take a weak argument that I did the ika stuff and he's just trying to copy me to get town cred, but nacho's his own thing outside of that)

He's putting in effort and being active, even if his ability to write and make sense is not quite up to the standard that we might like to uphold. I can understand why some of you have difficulty getting through the writing to actually get to the meaning. Doesn't mean the meaning isn't there.

I also think you guys should give points to koppi because I'll have you note that he calls out hana's slot. His post after is confusing, but the post I linked is the important bit. All of you on hana's ass that don't see the towniness in kisspop should at least see a little bit of the genuine originality and effort that I've been seeing off of the fact that he brings something up about someone you guys are just now starting to bring things up about.

[Hayate Yagami]

All of you on hana's ass that don't see the towniness in kisspop should at least see a little bit of the genuine originality and effort that I've been seeing off of the fact that he brings something up about someone you guys are just now starting to bring things up about.

I'm confused as to who this is addressed to? Like, the three people who joined the hanawagon, as I recall, were ffery, me, and pisskop. And both ffery and I consider pisskop to be probtown, I believe. So ???

[RayFrost]

Wiat wa. Okay, I should have waited until I was fully awake to write that post. My bad, I mixed you and someone else in my head (and I actually thought the hana wagon got more steam than that).

[fferyllt]

Sorry for being gone so long, signing up for three games simultaneously was a mistake but I'm still going to try to win this thing.

I know this isn't the most useful, but here's what I was thinking as I caught up:

176: I don't like the way ika just throws shit around. Bleh... could be town though

182: "I have had a bad expeince with ppl makign cases and have them flipping towns and then follow them again." I can deal with the terrible spelling and grammar (although I wish I didn't have to), but I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say here.

193: this sounds a lot like the case I made earlier, except with quote walls.

225 & 227: I agree, except about ika.

246: So saying anything with confidence is a scumtell?

256: Hard to put my finger on, but bjc sounds so submissive all the time, feels bad to me.

257: "if i die due to nk. Plz look into nacho/teirshift as scums" wtf is this? Why would anyone nk you? Don't like.

282: Whaaat? No.

355: Abbott never quite makes my radar ping either way. Everything he does seems reasonable, but kinda bland or something.

376: "if i end up dying" This again. Someone who knows what's up, is constantly saying you'll get night-killed a scum tell? Cause I'm thinking it is.

386: Oh man, I went from town vibes to scum partner. That's what I get for being AFK I guess.


UP TO DATE READS

TOWN
Nachomamma - I agree with almost every post from him that isn't about ika
lynch me bro - newbtown all the way
RayFrost - I like your ability to write in complete paragraphs
Abbott - null still
tiershift - aggressively townreading me, not sure if this is a test
ika - badfeels
bjc - probably scum
Rob W - The real test will be if we get him to L-1
SCUM

bjc and Rob are tied for last, I am fine with lynching either. I will put some more thoughtful posts together in a bit.

@emeraldemon what made you feel that a lurker with 4-5 posts was comparably scummy to a player with a ton of posts and stances to evaluate?

[fferyllt]

I don't think this is good scumhunting, but it's also hard for me to imagine continuing to play this way if ika and bjc are scum partners. Also I could be wrong about this but I think scum tend to be a bit more sticky in their reads, hesitant to put down a solid read, but pushing or tunneling on one person once they've voted. I don't like these votes, but on review I don't think it's a convincing scum case.

How did you develop this impression about scum play tendencies?

[Hayate Yagami]

hana's L-2 . . .

Don't do this. Why would you do this? Please don't make me regret not lynching you.

What were you expecting to gain from claiming Hana was at L-1, when the vote count was right at the top of the page for everybody to see? This kind of gambit really only works when we haven't had a vote count in a while, and it's harder to check exactly who is at what.

[TierShift]

V/la till sunday evening

vote: sakura

Since I'd rather see a nullread go than town. I guess neither pisskop nor bjc are gonna pick up votes.

[emeraldemon]

I've got an hour or so before I have to go, so of course I come and check this thread.

unvote

I believe the things people are saying about pisskop, I can see him as probably town.

@emeraldemon what made you feel that a lurker with 4-5 posts was comparably scummy to a player with a ton of posts and stances to evaluate?

Like I said, 386 was convincing to me. I didn't know nacho had a reputation, but his arguments and his conviction are persuasive. I also want to point out that those reads were before the "sorry to let you all down" post. His last post was just "Hostile place". That didn't sound like lost newb town to me.

I don't think this is good scumhunting, but it's also hard for me to imagine continuing to play this way if ika and bjc are scum partners. Also I could be wrong about this but I think scum tend to be a bit more sticky in their reads, hesitant to put down a solid read, but pushing or tunneling on one person once they've voted. I don't like these votes, but on review I don't think it's a convincing scum case.

How did you develop this impression about scum play tendencies?

By reading and playing and thinking I suppose. Scum don't have to weigh all the evidence, they're not uncertain or paranoid about who's town. They really only have two reasons to change reads: to push an opportunity (like a town wagon) or to fake being town. Of course good scum will do that, but I think it's hard to do fluidly and realistically.

hana's L-2 . . .

Don't do this. Why would you do this? Please don't make me regret not lynching you.

What were you expecting to gain from claiming Hana was at L-1, when the vote count was right at the top of the page for everybody to see? This kind of gambit really only works when we haven't had a vote count in a while, and it's harder to check exactly who is at what.

I thought pisskop was saying that Hana's vote put tiershift at L-2, not L-1, which could have forced an accidental hammer.

[Hayate Yagami]

I believe the things people are saying about pisskop, I can see him as probably town.

What in particular convinced you?

[Hayate Yagami]

Sakura's at L-2. Can still make a Sakura lynch happen, people!
(Okay, probably not. But a guy can dream, can't he?)

Anyway, will be here for deadline so if ffery doesn't drop by, I'll hammer.

And was going to ask Tier for an explanation for those reads, but I guess it's not happening.

[fferyllt]

I'm here. I'm thinking.

Hoping to see a little more from Ray about his emeraldemon case.

[fferyllt]

By reading and playing and thinking I suppose. Scum don't have to weigh all the evidence, they're not uncertain or paranoid about who's town. They really only have two reasons to change reads: to push an opportunity (like a town wagon) or to fake being town. Of course good scum will do that, but I think it's hard to do fluidly and realistically.

Your play and the theory behind it is pretty thoughtful for your apparent level of experience. I know that lingo and theory rub off quickly based on who new players encounter in their early games. But, in your play it seems pretty internalized already.

[Hayate Yagami]

ED is a great starting point, IMO.

I agree with this
Vote: ED
Go counterwagon!

Rob still scum? Ed?

Ed has gone town for me,

Rob at least this time seems like he's going to be replaced... which makes me incredibly skeptical because 3/4 times i replace into a newbie slot it's a scum slot. I think i rather push for ika at this point.

What in particular caused you to change your opinion on ED in those 100 posts, Sakura?

[emeraldemon]

I believe the things people are saying about pisskop, I can see him as probably town.

What in particular convinced you?

It was 1302 more than 1266, although both added something. I guess I'm more convinced by arguments about intent and motivation than tone. I was one of the ones scumreading kisspop and Sakura both, and even though his argument was wobbly pisskop was the one who put me on the idea of tiershift/sakura scumteam. I'm not really sure what scum pisskop would look like, but I'm starting to think this isn't it.

Your play and the theory behind it is pretty thoughtful for your apparent level of experience. I know that lingo and theory rub off quickly based on who new players encounter in their early games. But, in your play it seems pretty internalized already.

Thanks I guess

Does tiershift claiming VT shake your scumread on him?

[fferyllt]

Very slightly. It would probably have shaken me more if I hadn't already talked about scum and the value of fake-claims in newbie games (though it applies to all games, actually, but fake-claiming in non-newbie games is usually as much about survival as about flushing out PRs as they crash and burn).

I know Ray doesn't like one-game meta, but I played a recent game where town-Tiershift was mislynched on an (admittedly quite complicated) day 1. I'm not getting the same vibes here at all.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=34263

I was the Zoya head of the 3-headed hydra called Trine.

[Sakura Hana]

Sakura's at L-2. Can still make a Sakura lynch happen, people!

Deadline counter: 0 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes

=/
I still want TS or kop lynched. I may be able to be around during the whole deadline but if i have to leave in a hurry i'll claim.

[Hayate Yagami]

Eh, I can't really make a particularly solid Tier-town case; to be the defending of Rob felt very genuine, as did his eventual push-back from Rob after Nacho and Sakura presented their case and Nacho clarified what his case on Rob was exactly. And posts like 670 feel to me like genuine scumhunting. Not to mention that our thought processes are very similar, and that always gets players town points from me.

Sakura's at L-2. Can still make a Sakura lynch happen, people!

Deadline counter: 0 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes

=/
I still want TS or kop lynched. I may be able to be around during the whole deadline but if i have to leave in a hurry i'll claim.

Note the next line. (And hey, no offense. It's just you're a null slight scum read, so I'd rather you die than a weak town read like Tier.) A couple things have made me slightly more hesitant, but not enough to not want a Sakura lynch over a Tier lynch, honestly.

Also, see my above question.

[Sakura Hana]

I just have a feeling that you're going to deadline lynch me with all the hesitation to hammer TS just coz he claimed VT.

[fferyllt]

I plan to hammer TS. I'm holding off because I want more input from Ray and Nacho if at all possible.

[Hayate Yagami]

I'll be here at deadline so I can hammer if ffery doesn't, but I'm not too worried about that.

And I'd love if Nacho is able to come on and give some input, though I don't consider it all that likely.

[fferyllt]

I may not be around at deadline after all. :/

[Hayate Yagami]

Well, since I have to leave, ffery might not be around at deadline, and I doubt Ray/Nacho would have posted gamebreaking content in the next hour...

UNVOTE: Sakura
VOTE: TierShift

Hammah

[pisskop]

. . .