Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Where did the missing kill go?

As I said, I don't know for sure. It could be a ninja-kill. It could be that the scum flat-out killed pie N1. This is one of the bigger ones in particular, since I've flat-out told you guys that a scum-me would do precisely that and kill pie. If you have even a shadow of a thought of me being scum, that should be giving you pause for thought, if maybe I'm scum flat-out telling you what I did. (Which I

do

do as scum!) Which would make SSK town. (Aside from zMuff's insane theory of SSK being a scum-tracker.)

And even if you 100% believe me to be town, then you should still be listening to that. And not ignoring my judgment on SSK. I can't tell who else here would kill pie. It would probably be someone who respects pie nearly as much as I do, and/or (probably "and") someone who wants to take out claimed PRs/claimed protective PRs regardless of their role. I can't tell who else here is like that.

Like, I've got ideas. Kaze in particular. zMuff as another. AFB as one who's theoretically possible (even though I think it impossible), albeit improbable. (Kagami woulda been another.) Dan as a theoretical other, even though he's town. Basically, anyone who sees pie as a strong player would see him as an appetizing nightkill, because it's basically a free nightkill as far as they're concerned--nobody would second-guess the reason pie died. They'd all assume it was because of his role, rather than because of him being him.

I don't know for sure who has this kind of mindset. I'm basically just describing my own. But I know that it's at least possible, if not probable. Combine that with my strong feeling of this being SSK's towngame, and that's MORE than enough to give pause to this wagon.

[mastin2]

Watcher does imply ninja possibly. Maybe a nerfed ninja.

Among my thoughts precisely. In particular, it's fully possible for a mafia JOAT to have ninja/strongman as two of their abilities. (See also: Anything Goes.)

[sangres]

Where did the missing kill go?

As I said, I don't know for sure. It could be a ninja-kill. It could be that the scum flat-out killed pie N1. This is one of the bigger ones in particular, since I've flat-out told you guys that a scum-me would do precisely that and kill pie. If you have even a shadow of a thought of me being scum, that should be giving you pause for thought, if maybe I'm scum flat-out telling you what I did. (Which I

do

do as scum!) Which would make SSK town. (Aside from zMuff's insane theory of SSK being a scum-tracker.)

And even if you 100% believe me to be town, then you should still be listening to that. And not ignoring my judgment on SSK. I can't tell who else here would kill pie. It would probably be someone who respects pie nearly as much as I do, and/or (probably "and") someone who wants to take out claimed PRs/claimed protective PRs regardless of their role. I can't tell who else here is like that.

Like, I've got ideas. Kaze in particular. zMuff as another. AFB as one who's theoretically possible (even though I think it impossible), albeit improbable. (Kagami woulda been another.) Dan as a theoretical other, even though he's town. Basically, anyone who sees pie as a strong player would see him as an appetizing nightkill, because it's basically a free nightkill as far as they're concerned--nobody would second-guess the reason pie died. They'd all assume it was because of his role, rather than because of him being him.

I don't know for sure who has this kind of mindset. I'm basically just describing my own. But I know that it's at least possible, if not probable. Combine that with my strong feeling of this being SSK's towngame, and that's MORE than enough to give pause to this wagon.

plz explain the bit about SSK's towngame in terms I can relate to.

[zMuffinMan]

i think mafiassk is scum and i don't think he was trying to kill sangres

so tell me why mafiassk goes on and on about me being scum D1, questions pieguy about voting flandre, doesn't mention sangres at all (or skull) and then tracks sangres N1 and skull N2?

fuck, tell me why mafiassk completely dropped the

only

scum read he was really confident about D1 in order to track... what? sangres? then skull? seriously? because he found skull scummy?

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah mafiassk is totally a town tracker tracking his suspects

Unvote

because i have to :<

[mastin2]

plz explain the bit about SSK's towngame in terms I can relate to.

I wish I could. It's, like. Basically. Magic. SSK's posting as scum carries a distinctly-different feeling, tone, and frequency from his town-games. He has an entirely-different mindset. I can't remember his scumgames that I've read, but I remember his towngames. His thought process here is dead-in-line with games like Theatre, Touhou, and others. Regardless of alignment, he'll lurk, of course. But...well. This is off of memory (so it might not be precisely right), but a scum-SSK gives the town nothing to work off of, whereas a town-SSK doesn't give a damn, posts what he likes, and as a result, does give some good content. Said content is not as obvious as other players, but there if you look.

Try...I guess. Try reading his posts and imagining those same posts with a lot more words in them to say the same things. Try imagining the thought process behind those words as scum and as town. Try expanding his content out, beyond the literal words and into the subtext present, and see if that helps. I'd be lying if I said SSK was 100% town. But he's a solid 93%.

[zMuffinMan]

whereas a town-SSK doesn't give a damn, posts what he likes, and as a result, does give some good content

where did that happen in this game

[Kazekirimaru]

=
Is there stuff you think needs to happen before nightfall?

Meh.

Yeah, fuck that, you're also a scumbag.

This again? Don't make me laugh.

You can call me groupscum all you'd like; I fit as groupscum like, ridiculously well, between my "cheeky" bus-vote on Flandre (and later removal of it and never going back on), a nightkill on pie fitting my MO, my white knighting of SSK, and probably dozens of other things that could be used to justify me being scum. But not a chance in hell am I the serial killer and any town player who's even REMOTELY familiar with me damn-well KNOWS it.

Or

or

or!

You are.

FUCK WHAT THE RESULTS SAY. FUCK IT BEING INCRIMINATING. This is wrong. The people on the wagon are jumping on it blindly. They're not thinking. They're not analyzing. They're blindly hopping onto it without a care. They're not stopping to think, and feel what the wagon is actually like.

It's a damn scum-driven wagon. There are at least a third of a dozen number of possible explanations in which SSK is town. Ninja, strongman, pie kill, redirector. I don't know which happened. But I know that any of them are possibilities. Perhaps some are not probabilities, but this. is. NOT. a. good. wagon. Period. It's rushed. It's forced. It's being done without hesitation, without a second thought, because anyone who DOES give it would be thinking the exact damn same things that I am.

This whole rage thing really doesn't suit you.

Wagon speed isn't everything, really. When things make sense, they make sense.

IF YOU WERE EVEN REMOTELY TOWN, YOU WOULD BACK THIS DAMN STATEMENT WITH A VOTE.

Right back at you?

I'm starting to think you NEVER draw town these days. You realize your vote is still on MS, right?

As I said, I don't know for sure. It could be a ninja-kill. It could be that the scum flat-out killed pie N1. This is one of the bigger ones in particular, since I've flat-out told you guys that a scum-me would do precisely that and kill pie. If you have even a shadow of a thought of me being scum, that should be giving you pause for thought, if maybe I'm scum flat-out telling you what I did. (Which I do do as scum!) Which would make SSK town. (Aside from zMuff's insane theory of SSK being a scum-tracker.)

Uhh...how does this make you town? Are you trying to make an argument out of WIFOM?

---

Hilarity has ensued!

Once again the town has been thrown into disarray by scum! THIS is the part where they laugh at us~

Bunch of sheep.

Mastin just skyrocketed to the near-top of my scumlist. Methinks SSK is his bro, or he's just WK for the towncreds.

[sangres]

plz explain the bit about SSK's towngame in terms I can relate to.

I wish I could. It's, like. Basically. Magic. SSK's posting as scum carries a distinctly-different feeling, tone, and frequency from his town-games. He has an entirely-different mindset. I can't remember his scumgames that I've read, but I remember his towngames. His thought process here is dead-in-line with games like Theatre, Touhou, and others. Regardless of alignment, he'll lurk, of course. But...well. This is off of memory (so it might not be precisely right), but a scum-SSK gives the town nothing to work off of, whereas a town-SSK doesn't give a damn, posts what he likes, and as a result, does give some good content. Said content is not as obvious as other players, but there if you look.

Try...I guess. Try reading his posts and imagining those same posts with a lot more words in them to say the same things. Try imagining the thought process behind those words as scum and as town. Try expanding his content out, beyond the literal words and into the subtext present, and see if that helps. I'd be lying if I said SSK was 100% town. But he's a solid 93%.

Mastin, it fails for me right there at mindset. I felt like the "I'll always investigate ffery" comment was meant to mollify me. He's talking about a ffery/nacho hydra and he's worried about

me

slipping past town?

[Cephrir]

IF YOU WERE EVEN REMOTELY TOWN, YOU WOULD BACK THIS DAMN STATEMENT WITH A VOTE.

Right back at you?

I'm starting to think you NEVER draw town these days. You realize your vote is still on MS, right?

lol

seriously why does it take this craplogic being pointed at oneself before people actually notice that mastin is just obviously scum, idgi

[Skullduggery]

Could you please explain how the hell you are getting these reads?

Process of elimination, mostly. I have Town reads (of varying strengths) on everyone except for SSK, Mastin, and the five I mentioned in 2164 (Aegor, Kaze, Orcinus, Macmollie, Gooner).

Also, with 15 players alive, do you find it odd at all that three of your top five scum suspects are in your five-person neighborhood? And that you have included in your scum list every single person in your neighborhood who is neither you nor the living player closest to conftown? It seems like you have lost perspective a little bit.

I don't find it odd. Do you think everyone in our neighborhood is Town?

Sonic looks the scummiest of the other neighbourhood to me. He made a potential slip regarding three neighbourhoods and he hasn't done anything other than that.

No, Metal Sonic was only repeating what I said. I'm the one who originally brought up the idea that there could be three neighborhoods because I interpreted Cabd's 722 as him claiming to be a neighbor as well. He wasn't in my neighborhood and he wasn't in the AFB/Venmar/Metal Sonic neighborhood, so I thought there was a third. Obviously his flip shows that I was wrong.

Why do you want an answer to that?

Because your reason doesn't make sense. If you call me Scum for a reason that doesn't make sense, don't I have the right to ask for an explanation?

You said I was Scum because I'm the only one who would kill Varsoon on Night 1. Why am I the only one who would want to Kill Varsoon on Night 1? I don't think my bewilderment here is unreasonable.

But SSK is town. And those pushing him as confscum are bad.

You've also admitted that your Town-read of SSK is based on personal experience, meta, gut, and other factors that can't be quantified. You're a well-respected player and your words do carry a lot of weight, but is it reasonable for you to expect us to believe your word over the provable actions that have happened in the game -- especially when your alignment is still such a big question?

(Aside from zMuff's insane theory of SSK being a scum-tracker.)

Why is this such an unlikely possibility?

[Skullduggery]

Mastin is the Serial Killer.

I'd like your explanation for this in particular.

Mainly because I've been kicking around that idea.

For starters, there's 2047, where Mastin seems to already know which of the Night 2 kills was performed by the Serial Killer. I pointed out the pertinent bit here:

Spoiler:

The SK's clearly not someone who'd be wise to leash (both sources of kills have been tremendously anti-town), so they're basically an extra scumbag, just one without interactive tells.

You make it sound like you know which of the Night 2 kills was committed by our theoretical Serial Killer. Do you?

Interestingly, super-thorough Mastin chose not to respond to this particular point.

There's also the fact that she has spent an inordinate amount of time musing about the Serial Killer on Day 3, which indicates that she's using the approach of, "I'm going to talk a lot about the Serial Killer so no one will suspect that the Serial Killer is actually me." Most of her talk about the Serial Killer today seems unprompted and preemptive.

Look at her overall play too. It's been somewhat...distant, I guess you could say. Unexplainable reads coming from "gut" that are only given the bare minimum in terms of explanation, as if she wants to keep her options open. At the same time, it doesn't look like the kind of behavior that a group-Scum player would demonstrate. It's like she's intentionally trying to be

just

Towny enough to avoid being lynched and

just

scummy enough to avoid being night-killed, which is exactly the type of position that a Serial Killer would want to be in.

Finally, others have mentioned that Mastin's opinion of this game's Serial Killer doesn't jive with her normal opinion of Serial Killers (but since I have no firsthand experience in that regard, that's only a minor piece of evidence to me).

I think there is more than enough evidence that points to Mastin being the Serial Killer.

[MafiaSSK]

plz explain the bit about SSK's towngame in terms I can relate to.

I wish I could. It's, like. Basically. Magic. SSK's posting as scum carries a distinctly-different feeling, tone, and frequency from his town-games. He has an entirely-different mindset. I can't remember his scumgames that I've read, but I remember his towngames. His thought process here is dead-in-line with games like Theatre, Touhou, and others. Regardless of alignment, he'll lurk, of course. But...well. This is off of memory (so it might not be precisely right), but a scum-SSK gives the town nothing to work off of, whereas a town-SSK doesn't give a damn, posts what he likes, and as a result, does give some good content. Said content is not as obvious as other players, but there if you look.

Try...I guess. Try reading his posts and imagining those same posts with a lot more words in them to say the same things. Try imagining the thought process behind those words as scum and as town. Try expanding his content out, beyond the literal words and into the subtext present, and see if that helps. I'd be lying if I said SSK was 100% town. But he's a solid 93%.

Holy shit, I think Mastin just figured out my meta.

[Venmar]

I wish someone would answer me, whats going on because i'm a lazy pig who kind of doesn't want to read so many pages.

[MafiaSSK]

i think mafiassk is scum and i don't think he was trying to kill sangres

so tell me why mafiassk goes on and on about me being scum D1, questions pieguy about voting flandre, doesn't mention sangres at all (or skull) and then tracks sangres N1 and skull N2?

fuck, tell me why mafiassk completely dropped the

only

scum read he was really confident about D1 in order to track... what? sangres? then skull? seriously? because he found skull scummy?

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah mafiassk is totally a town tracker tracking his suspects

Unvote

because i have to :<

Few things here:
Dude, me questioning people =/= me thinking they're scum. Usually it's my version of a prod dodge post. And especially on a wagon as heated as the one on Flandre was, it was a good, meaningful prod dodge. It's so easy to just wagon hop on those wagons. Goodness knows that's happening with mine at a way too fast rate.

But yeah, on Day 1 I actually cared about the game. I noted you were more lurky than usual and so I voted you. That was pretty much why I thought you were scum. It wasn't strong and it was sorta hypocritical. So that night, I wanted to get more information on a read that I couldn't read. In Night 1's case, that was sangres, because ffery, and Night 2, it was Skull because I literally only had a gut read on him. I wanted something substantial. As it was both turned out jack shit. there was no substance.

As it is though, most of my actions can be seen in this game as me not giving any cares at all about what happens here. I vaguely care. I vaguely have reads.

That being said, Mastin is ridiculously awesome for defending me and I have no idea why he is but all of his points are valid and I'm willing to defend them all as my own.

[macmollie]

so do you think mastina is town or scum cos I can't tell

[macmollie]

There's also the fact that she has spent an inordinate amount of time musing about the Serial Killer on Day 3, which indicates that she's using the approach of, "I'm going to talk a lot about the Serial Killer so no one will suspect that the Serial Killer is actually me." Most of her talk about the Serial Killer today seems unprompted and preemptive.

Look at her overall play too. It's been somewhat...distant, I guess you could say. Unexplainable reads coming from "gut" that are only given the bare minimum in terms of explanation, as if she wants to keep her options open. At the same time, it doesn't look like the kind of behavior that a group-Scum player would demonstrate. It's like she's intentionally trying to be

just

Towny enough to avoid being lynched and

just

scummy enough to avoid being night-killed, which is exactly the type of position that a Serial Killer would want to be in.

Finally, others have mentioned that Mastin's opinion of this game's Serial Killer doesn't jive with her normal opinion of Serial Killers (but since I have no firsthand experience in that regard, that's only a minor piece of evidence to me).

I think there is more than enough evidence that points to Mastin being the Serial Killer.

I think that it would be pretty dumb for mastina to be all ack! ack! ack! the sk is BAD! lynch him! only to be the actual sk. I mean he is telling us that the sk is unleashable and it seems like a stretch for him to set himself up like that if he was caught out. if mastina is scum it is grpscum IMO

@ mastina

[macmollie]

goddammit I wasn't finished typing

anyways

@ mastina

THIS IS A REACH OUT CAN YOU PLZ STOP IGNORING ME

YOUARE TRIPPING MY SCUMDAR AND I DO NOT WANT TO MINDLESSLY TROLLEYTRACK ON YOU BUT I NEED YOU TO RESPOND!!!!

I FELT REALLY GOOD ABOUT YOU ON D1 BUT D2 I COULDN'T FEEL YOUR PRESENCE IN THE GAME AT ALL AND TODAY YOU SEEM TO BE MISSING SOME BEATS!!!!

[Aegor]

Process of elimination, mostly. I have Town reads (of varying strengths) on everyone except for SSK, Mastin, and the five I mentioned in 2164 (Aegor, Kaze, Orcinus, Macmollie, Gooner).

k.

I don't find it odd. Do you think everyone in our neighborhood is Town?

You should find it odd. And you should also realize that your question is a straw man. Think about it.

[macmollie]

I wish someone would answer me, whats going on because i'm a lazy pig who kind of doesn't want to read so many pages.

cabd the dead town watcher saw danny, pie, himself and mafiassk visit snagers n1 and mafiassk claimed tracker but people are saying his tracks don't make sense so there was a big wagon on him but mastina is saying NOOOOOOOOO and so now things are a little stalled. did you see my post about who was all in claimed neighborhoods? there was third neighborhood spec but I don't think so it seems like somebody would have outed it by now.

right now I am trying to sort mastina

[Kazekirimaru]

I think that it would be pretty dumb for mastina to be all ack! ack! ack! the sk is BAD! lynch him! only to be the actual sk. I mean he is telling us that the sk is unleashable and it seems like a stretch for him to set himself up like that if he was caught out.

This created situation is exactly why I think SK-Mastin is viable.

[macmollie]

Other games, other circumstances. Remind me to tell you about some of my 3rd party tangents sometime.

fery is super pro-town as 3rd party

my head hurts from the amount of reading i have to do in this game i've fallen so behind

she is. she is also smug as hell which is something I associate with her indie game cos she loves the role as the noble savage. thing is, I have only seen that in town compatible indie games I have not seen her play a sole survivor before and it just seems like the meta would not transfer because of a different wc. nacho's self-vote screams town and when I say scream I do mean scream why can't he be like that all of the time.

what I find weird about your post tho is that this is the only 1 you have made today and this was a weird thing to respond to. like, do you have anything else to say

[macmollie]

I think that it would be pretty dumb for mastina to be all ack! ack! ack! the sk is BAD! lynch him! only to be the actual sk. I mean he is telling us that the sk is unleashable and it seems like a stretch for him to set himself up like that if he was caught out.

This created situation is exactly why I think SK-Mastin is viable.

so you think sk mastina is gonna condemn the sk and then if caught turn around and say oh hai just kidding LEEEEAAASSSSHHH MEEEHHH like really???

[Kazekirimaru]

No. I think if Mastin is an SK he's going to try his hardest not to be caught in the first place.

[macmollie]

No. I think if Mastin is an SK he's going to try his hardest not to be caught in the first place.

that is a given but he would leave an opening for contingencies I would think. he isn't doing that

[Kazekirimaru]

Nah. Do or die. Caught SK is dead SK. I'd not expect otherwise.