Newbie 1476 - Game Over

[goodmorning]

Spoiler: Since you asked so kindly...

There are two main events that have acted to change your read on me. One is my assertion that your reads might be too convenient. The other is notsci's vote on me.

goodmorning

- null. Got her and mutt's posts confused earlier, and looking back through her ISO she has contributed little content so far for a IC, though she has been V/LA so hopefully there will be more to come from her.

This is what I said (all prior posts mention me in a null fashion):

I still worry slightly that Luca's reads are also too convenient as well as Zivel's, but I don't know. I need to reread this game.

Immediately, we start to see the word "suspicious" linked to my name:

I can only read what's put in front of me, maybe if you actually offered some reads yourself from time to time I could have a better read on you rather than having you down as null because you haven't contributed anything.
I realise you were V/LA for a short while earlier in the game, GM, but is there any reason why you have been so cautious when posting?

I have other players down as scum ahead of you at the moment, but as the most experienced player here you should be the town's biggest asset which hasn't been the case, and we have to question why that is.

I am suspicious of the likes of Joker, Rach, GM and yourself because they haven't given me a reason not to be.

I pretty much agree with your list, Not_Mafia. I would however swap GM and NS; you say GM has done nothing to make you think she is scum, which is fine, but has she done enough to make you feel she is town to be your second biggest town read?

Here is where notsci votes:

VOTE: GM

And suddenly my suspiciousness is being talked about in every other post:

I'm still suspicious of her cautious gameplay as I have been for a while, she is lurking a lot and is difficult to read, especially as this game has a few other lurkers already.

I thought the reason she gave for being cautious due to being an IC was weak and a bit of a cop-out. I still think if an IC is Town they would make more of an effort to influence proceedings, she has had no impact at all and her reads have had poor reasoning behind them - for example saying she thinks I'm town but my reads are 'too convenient', for a start that is sitting on the fence, and also she has provided no explanation why my reads are too convenient. The fact I have her as null isn't for convenience, it's because she has done nothing to make me think she could be one or the other.

That is the reason for my suspicions. As I said before, if she was Town she would be playing better than this given her experience. She was V/LA early on and then claimed she was busy so I gave her a chance, but she remains a lurker and it does nothing to help us make the right decision - if we turned on her and she flipped town, she would only have herself to blame.
I remember she said you hadn't done much to show your alignment, but she has done nothing in that respect herself.

unvote

P-EDIT: Yeah, I can also quote things, NotMaf.

[Not_Mafia]

Well to be fair NotSci drove discussion that way, we'd reached the end of our Burn discussion and the thead was kinda in limbo. He did go super aggro on you but that just seems to be his playstyle.

Still TvT as far as I'm concerned

[notscience]

Can you give me specifics why you think GM is town?

[goodmorning]

I'm finding the

timing

of his aggression towards me more relevant than the amount of aggression he's displaying.

PEDIT
NOTSCI
DON'T IGNORE MY QUESTIONS TO YOU

[notscience]

In what way? I've stated that I find the lack of posting suspicious based on our past game, but I'm also willing to make allowances for possible RL stuff, because it's really annoying when people don't grant me that courtesy.

"suspicious but idk might be rl"

Yeah you're right not avoidy at all

I'm not touching your other question

[goodmorning]

I'm not willing to build an entire case on lurking.

[burn_209]

OK it looks like a lot had gone down since I gave this a read so I will post my thoughts on here as well.

Im inclined to believe Notscience. After reading GM's post log or whatever you call it the one post that stood out to me, didnt necessarily seem scummy to me but more like something I would do if I were an IC that were mafia if that makes sense and that post is 224 (its a long ass post so instead of quoting it ill just post the link to the post instead)

In that post it sounds a lot like GM is fabricating reasons as to why she SHOULDN'T be the town leader. Saying that it develops bad habits and things of that is a cop out imo. Here is the thing, if you are the IC and scum it would be STUPID to be the towns leader and spoke person. Reason being you would always be wrong when making the call, unless you bussed your scumbuddy, as the towns "leader" if you will and the games attention would always be on you. I played a Newbie where Thor was the IC and was town. He took control of the town and was basically the guiding light for them the first day. I was mafia that game and he had me pegged out right from the start and the town was ready to lynch me. Towards the end of the day he started pushing for the lynch of another player who ended up getting lynched and ended up town. The next day Thor was lynched because he was essentially wrong and was the one who lead the town to lynching a townie.

Now say a scum GM decides to be the town leader like Thor was. What happens when she leads us to lynch a townie? What about when it happens again in day 2? Day 3? Eventually we as the town would catch on or want her to answer for her terrible and her cover would be blown. In mafia its common for the town to punish people who led the wagon for a townie lynch and that is a situation a scum player would want to avoid. That is why scum normally dont start wagons or hammer people. They sit nicely in the middle. I think GM recognizes the this and that is why she is so willing to push off being the town leader. I have a hard time believing that a town IC wouldnt want to take control and be the town leader. However I have an easy time seeing why a scum IC wouldnt want to.

So Im going to ride Notscience's coat tail and VOTE: goodmorning

[notscience]

Can we get an updated reads list from you burn?

[burn_209]

Can we get an updated reads list from you burn?

I will if you tell me what your thoughts are on the post I just made

.....ill just do my reads list anyway lol

[burn_209]

In order from towniest to scummiest

1. Mutt - I like how he challenged Luca and looked like seeking answers and genuinely trying to figure things out. If you are scum you dont have to figure things out because you already know whats going on for the most part.

2. Notscience - I really think your case on GM is strong and the more I think about it and mash it around in my head I think you are right

3. Luca - At first I thought he was scum but after our spat I think I know where he was coming from and his reactions, outside of calling me a liar, seemed very town like especially how he got offended when I voted for him after his defense for me. I dont see a scum player turning it up like that in that situation

4. Not mafia - Good activity and seems to be constructively adding to the discussion instead of being disruptive like a scum player would be. Could be either one though

5, 6, 7. Rach, Zivel, Joker - honestly you could put these guys in any order because I cant really get a read and them seem to be just there if that makes sense. If I had to put anyone of them above the other two it would be Zivel as he has made better posts than the others.

8. GM - Like I said I think Notscience is on to something and just read my post on her for what I think

[notscience]

I don't particularly have a case I've presented yet, care to rethink those reads?

[burn_209]

I don't particularly have a case I've presented yet, care to rethink those reads?

No because I am pretty concrete on them. Honestly even without the GM call out I would have still thought you were town and your spot would have been the same. GM I probably would have locked into the group of 3 as I would have looked over her I guess. You calling attention to her made me look over her posts one more time and I am confident in my read on her now.

GM's been doing a dishearted push while leading the burn wagon, why would she do that to her scumbud when it'd be easy to wagon Zivel?

This sounds like a case to me if even a small one. Especially the second part. Its something I can see being logical and worth investigating

[burn_209]

I was and still am and easier lynch than Zivel...that is why she didnt switch.

[burn_209]

Also I do believe that being scum with someone lets you get an inside look at how they play and think so if you got an instinct about scum GM then Ill take your word for it. However that post that I talked about is really why I think she is scum. It makes sense and is logical to me

[Zivel]

I am here lurking just enjoying this....

[Not_Mafia]

UNVOTE: Zivel
VOTE: Burn

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: Since you asked so kindly...

There are two main events that have acted to change your read on me. One is my assertion that your reads might be too convenient. The other is notsci's vote on me.

goodmorning

- null. Got her and mutt's posts confused earlier, and looking back through her ISO she has contributed little content so far for a IC, though she has been V/LA so hopefully there will be more to come from her.

This is what I said (all prior posts mention me in a null fashion):

I still worry slightly that Luca's reads are also too convenient as well as Zivel's, but I don't know. I need to reread this game.

Immediately, we start to see the word "suspicious" linked to my name:

I can only read what's put in front of me, maybe if you actually offered some reads yourself from time to time I could have a better read on you rather than having you down as null because you haven't contributed anything.
I realise you were V/LA for a short while earlier in the game, GM, but is there any reason why you have been so cautious when posting?

I have other players down as scum ahead of you at the moment, but as the most experienced player here you should be the town's biggest asset which hasn't been the case, and we have to question why that is.

I am suspicious of the likes of Joker, Rach, GM and yourself because they haven't given me a reason not to be.

I pretty much agree with your list, Not_Mafia. I would however swap GM and NS; you say GM has done nothing to make you think she is scum, which is fine, but has she done enough to make you feel she is town to be your second biggest town read?

Here is where notsci votes:

VOTE: GM

And suddenly my suspiciousness is being talked about in every other post:

I'm still suspicious of her cautious gameplay as I have been for a while, she is lurking a lot and is difficult to read, especially as this game has a few other lurkers already.

I thought the reason she gave for being cautious due to being an IC was weak and a bit of a cop-out. I still think if an IC is Town they would make more of an effort to influence proceedings, she has had no impact at all and her reads have had poor reasoning behind them - for example saying she thinks I'm town but my reads are 'too convenient', for a start that is sitting on the fence, and also she has provided no explanation why my reads are too convenient. The fact I have her as null isn't for convenience, it's because she has done nothing to make me think she could be one or the other.

That is the reason for my suspicions. As I said before, if she was Town she would be playing better than this given her experience. She was V/LA early on and then claimed she was busy so I gave her a chance, but she remains a lurker and it does nothing to help us make the right decision - if we turned on her and she flipped town, she would only have herself to blame.
I remember she said you hadn't done much to show your alignment, but she has done nothing in that respect herself.

unvote

P-EDIT: Yeah, I can also quote things, NotMaf.

Yeah, and I stand by all that I said, and my opinion on you has been consistent throughout, whether you think that is a townie trait or not.

My read on you started out as null for the reasons I said in that first read. I wanted and expected to see more from you after being V/LA early on, but it didn't happen, and out of all the 'quiet ones' your behaviour is the most suspicious to me as I would personally have expected more from the IC. When I mentioned that you got all defensive and gave a load of cop-out excuses why you weren't getting involved, because apparently everyone would 'sheep' you, which I think is very patronising as there seems to be a lot of decent players here, even if most of us are new. The fact the most you have contributed in this thread is arguing me about that particular point, and you have done so little to help town, that kind of explains why my read of you has naturally gone from null, to finding you suspicious and having you down as a slight-scum lean. You then accuse of of buddying NS which I have asked you numerous times for evidence of, but you can't provide any. The reason you can't provide any is because it doesn't exist and was a desperate attempt to undermine my read of you.

I will probably go through your posts later like you have with mine.

[Not_Mafia]

In that post it sounds a lot like GM is fabricating reasons as to why she SHOULDN'T be the town leader. Saying that it develops bad habits and things of that is a cop out imo. Here is the thing, if you are the IC and scum it would be STUPID to be the towns leader and spoke person. Reason being you would always be wrong when making the call, unless you bussed your scumbuddy, as the towns "leader" if you will and the games attention would always be on you. I played a Newbie where Thor was the IC and was town. He took control of the town and was basically the guiding light for them the first day. I was mafia that game and he had me pegged out right from the start and the town was ready to lynch me. Towards the end of the day he started pushing for the lynch of another player who ended up getting lynched and ended up town. The next day Thor was lynched because he was essentially wrong and was the one who lead the town to lynching a townie.

Now say a scum GM decides to be the town leader like Thor was. What happens when she leads us to lynch a townie? What about when it happens again in day 2? Day 3? Eventually we as the town would catch on or want her to answer for her terrible and her cover would be blown. In mafia its common for the town to punish people who led the wagon for a townie lynch and that is a situation a scum player would want to avoid. That is why scum normally dont start wagons or hammer people. They sit nicely in the middle. I think GM recognizes the this and that is why she is so willing to push off being the town leader. I have a hard time believing that a town IC wouldnt want to take control and be the town leader. However I have an easy time seeing why a scum IC wouldnt want to.

So Im going to ride Notscience's coat tail and VOTE: goodmorning

If she were town and took control and lynched a townie (which is more likely) then she'd be lynched day 2 anyway by your logic so why is this a scumtell.

2. Notscience - I really think your case on GM is strong and the more I think about it and mash it around in my head I think you are right

What case?

GM's been doing a dishearted push while leading the burn wagon, why would she do that to her scumbud when it'd be easy to wagon Zivel?

This sounds like a case to me if even a small one. Especially the second part. Its something I can see being logical and worth investigating

"Let's explore why I would not be scum in what is complete postulation" How, exactly, would this be constructive?

Your self vote has been there for a while now and as soon as another wagon appears you crop up. You jumped on a wagon that hasn't been explained yet whilst saying the case for the wagon is really good, saying notsci's non-existent reasoning is good whilst using Luca's reasoning.

UNVOTE: Zivel
VOTE: Burn

[joker443]

Luca what's your main reason for Gm because I can't see it ATM?
Plus Gm was main leader in last game as she was confirmed town but she was just a waste
Of time then
I am trying to get more involved anyone got any questions for me I'll answer as seen a few people say I'm not here enough

[Not_Mafia]

If you had to guess the scumteam right now who would it be and why?

[serrapaladin]

OFFICIAL VOTE COUNT 1.12

notscience (1) - RachMarie
burn_209 (2) - Luca Blight, Not_Mafia
Luca Blight (1) - Zivel
goodmorning (2) - notscience, burn_209

Not Voting (3) - Graeyfurredmutt, joker443, goodmorning

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2014-03-01 23:59:59).

[Not_Mafia]

That reminds me, Rach Marie needs to place a real vote

[joker443]

Right now I'm thinking burn and Rach not 100% sure but Rach mainly because of my last game lurkers usually mean scum..burn his reaction to things are very defensive and hasn't really tried finding anything out for himself
What's yours?

vote rach

sticking with this one

[burn_209]

And her comes not mafia running towards his scum buddies rescue. I am 90% sure I know who the scum team is now

[Not_Mafia]

And her comes not mafia running towards his scum buddies rescue. I am 90% sure I know who the scum team is now

>NotSci says GM is scum but he can't say why just yet
>Burn jumps on this wagon and says he agrees with non-existent reasoning
>I point this out
>I am scum