Open 551: Hard Boiled - GAME OVER

[AngryPidgeon]

FTR, I'm going to attempt discerning whether mastin and AP aren't running a fake argument here.

Fake argument? We've been buddying the crap out of each other, which should maybe make you paranoid

[AngryPidgeon]

Whomever mentioned the Amished tell first gets to be scum in my reads as far as I'm concerned for fake contributing.

Well that was Antihero, lol.

[mastin2]

As far as it goes I kind agree with Kid now, I'm liking his AP vote for *outside reasons*. To clarify: Pidgeon and mastin coming together and having a minor banter and then resonating in agreement is not very heartwarming to me, mostly because the town lost a game precisely into which the two of them replaced into slots that turned out to be scum (it was in the Playing with Fire game)

unvote

. And I remember well Pidgeon pretended to like Mastin's reads... as far as Mastin goes, her posts give me pause and I need to read her posts more thoroughly tonight... only to see if I can find myself seeing whether there seems to be a genuine interest in figuring things out.

I have semi-decent town reads on antihero, Egg, leaning town on chamber and now on Kid ; and Earthquake to an extent because re:Quill. Haven't reassessed my CDB read since, still town. Still don't like Lia and would re-vote at any point. Put mastin2 to the null pile with Not_Mafia. Didn't like Formerfish's catch-up post at all thought it was pretty coasty and safe.

[TOWN] Antihero, Egg, CDB [[[[Gap]]]], chamber, KidA [[Gap]] Earthquake [NULL] Not_mafia, mastin2 [Gap] AngryPidgeon, Formerfish, Quill, Lia [SCUM]

Zar's been largely null to me, but this strongly makes me lean towards town.

[AngryPidgeon]

Zar's been largely null to me, but this strongly makes me lean towards town.

Ya, this. Mastin and I are basically masons at this point

[Antihero]

wow pidgeon, kudos. you still have a pretty mean scum game.

buddy, buddy with mastin and throw dirt on me occasionally to keep me in the paranoia zone (but not engaging me quite enough to 1v1 me)

[AngryPidgeon]

I was going to say you have never seen me as scum, but your old avatar remindes me that you have: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23831.
Although in that game I spent more time OMGUS-bussing my scumteam than anything.

I am town here, but Im curious what your thought process behind that post ^ is.

[Antihero]

nah, i'm thinking more along the lines of thirsty souls

[Earthquake]

Totally prod dodging. I got a major work assignment I wasn't expecting for a few days and I need to conference with my other head.

~Titus

[Antihero]

AP:
also, lolz, did you

just

say that meta isn't a reliable way to read you

i feel like you're keeping me at arm's length and i don't know why; also, your response to when i asked you about quill pinged my gut

we'll see

[AngryPidgeon]

also, lolz, did you just say that meta isn't a reliable way to read you

Yes, and? I m still allowed to care about why people choose to misread me over meta to determine if I think they believe their case or not.

[chamber]

Not_mafia is also scum, but quill can go first.

[Not_Mafia]

But I'm Not_Mafia

[Not_Mafia]

Buuuuuut, basically...Kid A's town because his posting comes from a town mindset. Earthquake's scum because their posting comes from a rather transparent scum mindset. (CDB gives off similar vibes, but I'm actually calling CDB the weaker read, since him being from that older generation, it's difficult to be certain that what I picked up on holds validity.) Kid A's posting seems to have no ulterior motive behind it, whereas Earthquake's play is highly artificial.

Okay, that explanation sucks. I'll try to think of a better way of saying it.

please talk to me about cbd

CDB's posting looks like logical scum rather than relic-town is the core version. Basically, CDB comes from an era of a different site meta, and you can tell that (regardless of whether he's adjusted to current site meta or not) he's antiquated. The thing is, his play immediately came off as being antiquated-scum rather than town.

(...See above for further details. )

That was all really vague, any chance you could expand on those point/reads? In paticular how has the meta changed, I'm not asking for an essay or anything just enough so I can understand your read on CDB

P.S I thought I saw a wolf in your avatar and when I quoted this post I realised that there is no wolf. I like wolves and I am disappointed, what are you going to do about this?

P.S.S Sorry for your loss

[Kid A]

zar starts townreading me right after some strong players say they town read me

no thank u

VOTE: zar

[Kid A]

actually i jumped the fucking gun there

VOTE: chamber

[chamber]

actually i jumped the fucking gun there

VOTE: chamber

I approve of you thinking critically, but this is an awful time to push me, at least wait until the heat on you dies down a bit.

[Zar]

mastin what's so terrible about the Quill wagon?

and also why is that you think Not_Mafia's 244 is "not scum banter"?

[Quill]

Okay, after actually sitting myself down and getting to an acceptable level of well-versedness on this game, here's what I have.

First off, my reads on Not_Mafia and to a lesser extent Kid A have been way off base. I think past!me had a slightly more valid argument against Kid A when he was posting less, but his posts now have much more of a town motivation, although he is still following other people's votes/suspicions a lot. I really don't like the way he and Antihero spin toward Not_Mafia at the same time around post #175 but his vote for Zar just now (before he switches to Chamber) is one of the recent ones that feels very town to me. My reads on Not_Mafia were basically me just being an idiot and skimming his earlier posts instead of actually reading them.

Of the recent three replacements, I feel like mastin's posts are coming from the most town of perspectives, although I agree with AP's reads more, which is a strange place to be in. Antihero's constant antagonism is really jarring, so I'm not sure whether the scumread I'm getting on him is just reactionary to that and should be ignored or if there's really something there.

@Lia: I don't have a better answer to you for my statement in #132 other than that you've been giving me a strange vibe all game, and it felt like your responses to questions were mostly just nitpicking. There are responses in there, though, so while they're not as satisfactory as I would like, I was off-base to call you out on it. On a different note, where is your scumread on Earthquake coming from? I can see where other people's are coming from, but you've scarcely mentioned them, from my skimming of your ISO.

And lastly, of all y'all, the one I'm now feeling most uncertain of is Earthquake. I didn't like their play in my initial few posts, and looking back through the game, they're making just one weak attack after another. They start off targeting Not_Mafia for going after CDB and Dritan, then switch over to me, and by the time they return after their long hiatus they sort of lean back and throw stones at me and Kid A without much effort to actually contribute or scumhunt. Post #205 feels especially bad to me; these are all cherry-picked from Kid A's early game, and ignore the better posts he's made by this point. (Not a million times better, but still)

I can/will expand on this more, but this seems long enough for now, since I have no interest in this being a billion words long, no one reading it, and everyone lynching me for terrible reasons. Gonna post quick reads immediately following this, though.

Vote: Earthquake

[Quill]

Current Reads, which got way more wordy than I intended but whatever:

Not_Mafia: Not mafia, likely. Town.
Egg: Had a good feeling about him early in game, but absence has fuzzled that. Null, leaning town.
Antihero: His vote for Formerfish early on felt good, but interactions with AP and Mastin feel weird. Not sure how or why yet. Null, leaning scum.
Formerfish: Admittedly, V/LA for most of the game (although not anymore, right?), but that one big post feels a lot like distractive busy work. Light scum.
Kid A: My read on him is still all over the place. Recent posts feel down, so we'll call this tenta-Town cause that doesn't sound like a creepy phrase at all.
mastin2: I don't sync up with all her reads, but her posts feel like they're coming from a town mindset. Curious about the CDB read.
Earthquake: As I said above, they've been making weak attacks all game and going after easy targets without getting their hands dirty. Scum.
Lia: Something about her posts is still bugging me. It's the way she's been picking at little things (not with me, where the case was more valid) without talking about some of the bigger details. Light scum, lighter than Formerfish.
chamber: Yeah, I have no idea what to think here yet. Needs more effort on my part. Null.
ChannelDelibird: His earlier posts felt pretty town to me, his later ones have felt more null. The way he's interacted with Earthquake makes me feel like only one of them is scum though. Light town. (But, CDB, can you elaborate on the reason you jumped on my wagon out of nowhere in your last content post?)
AngryPidgeon: His reads are largely syncing up with mine, with the exception of Lia, but the actual posts are feeling very calculated and artificial, and he jumped on that buddyship with mastin real fast. Light town.
Zar: He, like CDB, had an early town read from me, and it hasn't eroded as much. It feels like there's a lot of possible truth in Kid A's reasoning for voting him just now, though. Light town.

[Antihero]

the wind's blowing a different way
the reads change again to suit it

what did AP call it?
"boringly scum motivated"?

yeah, that's pretty fitting here

[Antihero]

oh no wait, AP was talking about titus

still a pretty apt phrase for quill

[Formerfish]

I disagree. I think that his obstinance is very off putting to town. His refusal to back up statements with sensible arguments is exactly what scum is forced to do when inventing scum reads.

Is he off-putting? Sure. Do I think he's more likely to act this way as scum than town? Not especially. I don't think he's being particularly helpful but, in my admittedly somewhat limited experience of playing with Kid A and looking at his approach here, it seems like a misguided general attitude to the game more than an approach that he wouldn't take as town. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it's not a particularly interesting vote and, if he is town, he's the sort of mislynch that scum would immediately see as achievable.

Breaking Kids play into the category you did seems like an oversimplification and an attempt to trivialize peoples views on said player.

Kinda. I don't think he's being approached with a great deal of critical thinking, Zar aside.

VOTE: Quill

I don't care about interesting votes, I care about voting scum. And I have a hard time getting behind the "he's too scummy to be scum" argument that people try to make about certain players on this site. I feel like people act a certain way as town so that when they do draw scum they can act the same exact way and people will make the meta argument for them. I don't care if someone plays scummy as town, if you play scummy I am going to come after you. And you agree that you are oversimplifying his playstyle?

1 - my town reads arent useful information for other town players but they are useful information for scum players
2 - i didnt expect anyone to know why i placed my vote
3 - if he actually wanted to know why i voted he surely would have asked me - he was clearly more interested in pushing a wagon than actually understanding my play
4 - i dont give a fuck if its an omgus vote i want him to grow a dick and conclude his list of reasons why i am scum with a vote on me instead of waiting for him scumbud to push the wagon for him

Kid A, 1. Scum knows who town is, what benefit would they have from your town reads? Town reads helps the rest of the town sort you, and we can PoE the rest of the player field as well. 2. If you don't expect people to know why you voted, and you don't want people to guess then whats the end game here with a naked vote? You just trolling for reactions? 3. No one understands your play. Ever. 4. And I rwally don't see you taking an OMGUS vote in stride.

sooooo...

formerfish is scum

that's cool

VOTE: formerfish

Not this time. My attack on Kid A is a mix of playstyle and the shitty avenues he is pursuing. I do know that naked votes come from either side, but I see it coming moreso from scum. It allows them to avoid accountability.

Town: Lia, KidA, mastin
Meh-town: NOTMAFIA, formerfish

Scummy: Antihero, Earthquake

What are you seeing in Kid A that is town, and what of Earthquake is scummy? Mastin you can answer this too.

Quill, if you think that my posting style makes me scum then go look at my past town games. I have a hard time getting into games at the start because of the speed some of them go at. I am much better past day 2, and I usually get there because I am an easy push for scum to make for a mislynch.

[Kid A]

Kid A, 1. Scum knows who town is, what benefit would they have from your town reads? Town reads helps the rest of the town sort you, and we can PoE the rest of the player field as well. 2. If you don't expect people to know why you voted, and you don't want people to guess then whats the end game here with a naked vote? You just trolling for reactions? 3. No one understands your play. Ever. 4. And I rwally don't see you taking an OMGUS vote in stride.

1 it tells scum who they should nk
4 omgus implies that he just voted because im voting him but he actually said proper reasons for me being scum

[chamber]

I feel like people act a certain way as town so that when they do draw scum they can act the same exact way and people will make the meta argument for them. I don't care if someone plays scummy as town, if you play scummy I am going to come after you.

Quill, if you think that my posting style makes me scum then go look at my past town games.

[Not_Mafia]

Quill seems to jump on any and every wagon, I'm surprised he didn't self vote earlier