Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #3350 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:23 am

Post by borkjerfkin »

Votecount 6.4


[2] pidgey (sangres, zMuffinMan)
[1] mastin2 (Venmar)
[1] Venmar (Skullduggery)
[1] zMuffinMan (pirate mollie)

[4] Not Voting (ActionDan, pidgey, mastin2, Iecerint)

With 9 alive, it is 5 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2014-03-26 08:00:00)
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Post Post #3351 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:36 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie break down the things you think i was sheeping sangres on

coz

this is what actually happened this game

D1 - vastly different opinions
D2 - too short to really tell
N2 - pieguy died and flipped town (see below)
D3 - they seemed unsure on mafiassk for a while, i was arguing that mafiassk was a scum tracker and pointing out why his claim didn't make much sense - literally no sheeping occurred
D4 - they wanted to lynch skull, i was arguing hard for an aegor lynch - again literally no sheeping occurred
D5 - i had a poe list they obviously didn't agree with, so i dunno what exactly you think i'm sheeping
D6 - here we are again same deal

if your argument is simply that i'm voting the same people they're voting, whoop-dee-fucking-doo i guess? that is a result of something and you get no cookies for noticing it or pointing it out - nacho knows that's what i've been doing since the pieguy flip and he knows why it's happening (he even pointed out to you i made a similar bet in that game you forced a lynch through on him - you ignored him pointing this out). but show me one example of me sheeping their opinions on anything anywhere. just one example. because i know you won't be able to find one. so you're making shit up here.
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Post Post #3352 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 2:57 am

Post by pirate mollie »

In post 3348, zMuffinMan wrote:
In post 3339, pirate mollie wrote:I have been poking at you all game and you for the most part have largely ignored me until it became expedient for you to no longer do so.
show me examples of this happening before D5, or amend it to "i have been poking you since you started thinking i'm not town and you've been responding to me"
the very first post was not from d5 it was like d3 or 4

try again

I don't think the second 1 was either I got them from my iso

you are so fucking reaching to cobble together a firm ground "oh you only JUST TODAY said I was scum!" but I think shifting the goalposts to accommodate d5 is pretty amazing. now do it to d4 or d3 whenever aegor got lynched.

mebbe saying "all game" was an exaggeration but I know I have been poking at you and it goes beyond "just today".
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Post Post #3353 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:03 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie wrote:the very first post was not from d5 it was like d3 or 4

try again
LOL

are you actually not reading my posts? i quite literally acknowledged that the first quote was the
only
post prior to D5 that could reasonably be called "poking" me about something, and i responded to that so that cannot be an example of something that you were poking me about and i was apparently ignoring
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Post Post #3354 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:05 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

3342, 3343, 3344, 3347, 3348

do i need to bold the relevant parts?
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Post Post #3355 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:10 am

Post by pirate mollie »

In post 3351, zMuffinMan wrote:mollie break down the things you think i was sheeping sangres on

coz

this is what actually happened this game

D1 - vastly different opinions
D2 - too short to really tell
N2 - pieguy died and flipped town (see below)
D3 - they seemed unsure on mafiassk for a while, i was arguing that mafiassk was a scum tracker and pointing out why his claim didn't make much sense - literally no sheeping occurred
D4 - they wanted to lynch skull, i was arguing hard for an aegor lynch - again literally no sheeping occurred
D5 - i had a poe list they obviously didn't agree with, so i dunno what exactly you think i'm sheeping
D6 - here we are again same deal

if your argument is simply that i'm voting the same people they're voting, whoop-dee-fucking-doo i guess? that is a result of something and you get no cookies for noticing it or pointing it out - nacho knows that's what i've been doing since the pieguy flip and he knows why it's happening (he even pointed out to you i made a similar bet in that game you forced a lynch through on him - you ignored him pointing this out). but show me one example of me sheeping their opinions on anything anywhere. just one example. because i know you won't be able to find one. so you're making shit up here.
yep, it really is that simple to abdicate votes in favour of *whatever reason* as scum. I thought at first that you were trying to just feel sangres out cos sometimes that is what I will do to a player if I am trying to sort them.

if I can move back out of apathy I will see if I can find an example of when you did blindly sheep their reads cos I am pretty sure it happened.

and I am not making shit up. but keep trying to apply that spin that you are so adept at doing.
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Post Post #3356 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:10 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie wrote:mebbe saying "all game" was an exaggeration but I know I have been poking at you and it goes beyond "just today"
you literally said
mollie wrote:I have been poking at you all game and you for the most part have largely ignored me until it became expedient for you to no longer do so
see my response to this in , 3343, 3344, 3347, 3348

all game is a gross exaggeration because PRIOR to me saying i don't think you're town, you could reasonably be said to have poked me about the sheeping TWICE in the entire game, and both times i responded to it.

so you are BLATANTLY FUCKING LYING when you said you've been poking me all game AND i haven't been responding

anyone can ctrl+F your ISO for "muffin" and see this so there's no fucking argument to be had here.

all of your poking bar a couple mentions that i acknowledged came AFTER i said i didn't think you're town (D5, a bit FUCKING late to start poking me if you have issues with me, no?)

and ALL of them i responded to, so where the fuck have i been ignoring you all game, mollie?

quote

the

fucking

things

i

ignored

or

admit

you're

lying

scum
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Post Post #3357 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:13 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie wrote:if I can move back out of apathy I will see if I can find an example of when you did blindly sheep their reads cos I am pretty sure it happened.
do it then or shut up about it

don't make another post about it until you've actually done it because you're lying through your teeth
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Post Post #3358 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:16 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie wrote:yep, it really is that simple to abdicate votes in favour of *whatever reason* as scum
also this is a load of shit to anyone who's read the game. when i disagree with where my vote is, i've tried persuading sangres to move their vote elsewhere; how the fuck is that abdicating responsibility? D3 when they weren't voting mafiassk i kept trying to persuade them to move their vote back there, D4 when they weren't voting aegor i kept trying to persuade them to move their vote there, and D5 / D6 are fairly fucking obvious
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Post Post #3359 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:18 am

Post by pirate mollie »

In post 3348, zMuffinMan wrote:
In post 3339, pirate mollie wrote:I have been poking at you all game and you for the most part have largely ignored me until it became expedient for you to no longer do so.
show me examples of this happening before D5, or amend it to "i have been poking you since you started thinking i'm not town and you've been responding to me"
this was a xpost it isn't like it is that hard to figure out that is what is happening!

so yeah I am skimming in order to keep up

I knew as soon as I saw those posts I should have stepped back in order to digest more fully what you are saying but I still think you are scum but hey get me lynched at least there will be a beautiful beautiful trail that will lead directly to you plus it will be funny to watch you backtrack from this from the dead qt after your banging on how I am the 1 who will have to backtrack!

I will respond more fully later.

eta: more xposts

how about you stop you shirfting the goalposts and stop spinning? how about that?

I will get to it when I feel like it. your scum so I don't feel an overwhelming urge to coddle you
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Post Post #3360 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:20 am

Post by sangres »

Condolences mastin. :(

Mollie,

From my end of the interactions, it's been pretty obvious that zmuffin often disagreed with where our vote was/is, and has argued against our votes pretty hard several times.

He 95% convinced me our vote belonged on Aegor. The game day ended before Nacho and I had a chance to discuss it.
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Post Post #3361 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:28 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

mollie wrote:how about you stop you shirfting the goalposts and stop spinning?
shifting WHAT goalposts? you claimed you were poking me about stuff all game and i was ignoring you - those are the fucking goal posts and they haven't shifted. you are the one shifting them

so show me where this happened prior to D5 if it happened all game (rather than just D5 onwards... you know, after i started saying you're not town) and show me which ones i ignored
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Post Post #3362 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:32 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

also of note is that this spawned from me saying you haven't commented on my actual reads and the apparent lack of "substance" behind them

and nothing you quoted was you talking about or asking me about my reads

so the original statement, that up until now you weren't concerned with the "substance" behind my poe still stands
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Post Post #3363 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:37 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

actually, to be fair, is the closest you came to commenting on it (but it was just my read on you) and i responded to that in which you never asked about further

and like i said, all of the reads are expanded on or talked about at various points in my ISO

so

yeah
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Post Post #3364 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:36 am

Post by Skullduggery »

In post 3332, Venmar wrote:
In post 3324, Skullduggery wrote:Then why would you "settle" for lynching me only if Mastin turns out to be Town? You make it sound like you expect Mastin to flip Town and then plan to push me as Scum after that.
Excuse me? Are you fucking high? I said I would settle for lynching you if we AREN'T going to be lynching Mastin2.
In post 3252, Venmar wrote:If Mastin is someone
you think
is town, I can easily settle for a Skull lynch.
READ THIS SHIT AGAIN. CLOSELY. THEN COME BACK TO ME.
I read it closely the first time. How does this invalidate my observation in any way? (Bonus points if you can answer this question without throwing a temper tantrum.)
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Post Post #3365 (ISO) » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:29 pm

Post by pidgey »

Okay ive gone through a little post history, and I hate to admit it but muffin does look town, even if he is voting for me for fuckign retarded reasoning.

That leaves mastin and Venmar at the moment.

Mastin has a point that maybe sharing the same scum targets should make me thing of her as town, but then again that doesnt really mean much to me if he could easily be faking them? Also, i dont really see a lot of original content from her at times. Though she is disconnected from the game, not meaning now, but like thats a general feeling that reading her gave me.

Venmar would be mostly scum by POE if i keep my townreads on skull, mollie, sangres, and muffin. Out of those, im pretty sure about sangres being town, the other 3 could still surprise me at some point, but i probably wouldnt take out muffin or skull at this point, which would only leave mollie.

That's where I stand at the moment.
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Post Post #3366 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:33 am

Post by zMuffinMan »

woah, pidgey, if you're not careful, future-paragon mollie will be on your heels calling you obvscum for using poe like that
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Post Post #3367 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:26 am

Post by Venmar »

Muffin, stop arguing with Mollie, it's hopeless and impossible even when she's wrong.

*sigh* who are we lynching.
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Post Post #3368 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:34 am

Post by mastin2 »

This is awkward. I've got so many people offering me condolences, when I heard news that she's apparently not that bad off. (The news came from my grandfather, who panicked, rather than the nurse actually looking after her, who when she examined her, found her to be in good health, apparently. Also hearing things third-hand dilutes the info further. I don't speak directly with my grandfather; I don't even speak with the person who speaks with my grandfather. I speak with the person who speaks with my grandfather, resulting in a large delay in the info chain.)
In post 3326, zMuffinMan wrote:
mastin wrote:Mollie's like 95% likely not to be. pidgey a good 85%. Skull about 70%. You're much lower than that.
elaborate on these when you have time
Mollie's been basically largely town the whole game. I may not be perfect at reading her mindset, but I'm still FAIRLY good at it, and when reading her train of thought, it looks to HIGHLY match EVERYTHING I know about how she operates as town and not how she thinks as scum. Admittedly, I could be wrong, but there's also play. I've had no issues with her the entire game; everything she's done has seemed to be (albeit not entirely correct) in mind with a town mindset, in that she's trying to figure things out, rather than trying to manipulate people. Her posts come across as extremely genuine, and overall, her emotions, her tone, everything, all says town.

That's just from me. Throw in the support of sangres (both heads of which I absolutely and entirely trust to be competent at reading her) also agreeing with this super-mega-town assessment? And you've got basically the strongest townread of the not-conftown players.

Pidgey's not conftown, but the slot has been playing a hugely, HUGELY pro-town game. I went over Brian Skies already, but to reiterate: his posting came across as casual, relaxed town, a player who was scumhunting and doing so fairly well, and having no fear of being lynched. That's strongly indicative of a town mindset. You can argue that he was calm scum, not panicking, but overall, he looked highly town. His slot inheritor, Gooner, took this trend and actually INCREASED it. He immediately entered with strong analysis, and was basically the entire time trying to figure things out and coordinating. I saw that same lack of manipulation, only stronger. His posts don't read as scum faking, or scum manipulating. They read as town legitimately analyzing to figure things out, and coming up with some dang-good conclusions overall, a nice process that looks incredibly town.
Pidgey's entrance was weaker than that, thanks to a lack of effort. However, once pidgey actually GAVE that effort, he immediately started to look town to me, because pidgey's posting raised good points, looked like legitimate analysis, and basically, he tried to figure things out in spite of being at a MASSIVE disadvantage information-wise. That he's putting so much effort in doesn't look like scum desperate to rebound from a near-guaranteed lost. It strongly looks like town, trying to end the game quickly with a scum lynch. Not to mention? His reads being similar to mine (yet him clearly not having got them from sheeping/parotting me) is another solidly good sign.

Skull's a much lesser version of pidgey. I really like the effort Skull has put into the game, and Skull's reaction to impending death screamed town. Skull could be scum, yes. Skull's essentially my third choice, behind you (second) and Venmar (first). But Skull's posting simply doesn't feel like scum. That Skull's bringing up such solid points and is seeing the same things I am is again a VERY good sign. Skull's posting doesn't seem like it comes with an agenda. It strongly looks like it comes from the mindset of someone who's attempting to figure the game out. Unlike pidgey, it's fully possible Skull's posting is meant to buddy me. But though the possibility exists, I don't see Skull as likely scum. I don't have concrete reasons. More than any other player, this would be gut. Yet it's a gut I'm actually going to trust.

You? Have kinda just...been there. Your stances don't make much sense. Your posting has not been solid. You've sorta just...well, been in the game, not been as strong as I'm used to seeing from a town-you. Your arguments are kinda convenient for a scum player to make, and your stances seem to match. Additionally, there have been times in the game where it takes a stretch of logic for you to be town and have guessed the things you 'guessed' correctly, whereas if scum you'd obviously have known them. (Such as SSK being a MAFIA tracker.)

It's the read I've done the least work on. I'm not seeing you as scum in spite of the above all pointing your direction. If I knew why, this game would be much easier than it is. But it's there, at a very weak percentage. Like...if 100% is conftown and 0% is confscum, you'd be at something like 40%, maybe even lower. Venmar would be at something like 10%, butyeah. That's really where I'm standing. Assuming one scum, I really think it's Venmar. If not him, then you. If there's two scum, Kaze's slot becomes another option. But I really don't see scum as being any other players.
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Post Post #3369 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:37 am

Post by mastin2 »

As an aside:
zMuffinman and Venmar really look like scumbuddies.
Their whole interaction.

Their whole way of going about things.
How they're treating each other.
And even how they treat others treating the other.

All looks like scumbuddies.

IF there are two scum, I'm not going to clear Kaze's slot (who could easily be scum with either of them in this scenario), but I really want them lynched.

Ah, heck with it.

VOTE: Venmar.
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Post Post #3370 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:43 am

Post by mastin2 »

I'll be blunt.
Make the best case in the world.
Against mollie.
Against pidgey.
Against Skull.

Honestly. I don't think I'll listen to it. I don't see myself ever voting mollie, nor do I see myself realistically voting pidgey. (Okay, so Skull's possible. Yet not probable.) You can try to argue. You can say that I'm missing something. That my analysis is imperfect at best. That I'm not seeing something that you have seen. That I'm just entirely wrong. Yet as stupid as this sounds coming from the person who hardcore defended SSK? I really don't feel like I am, here. If both Venmar and zMuffinman flipped town? Sure! Yeah. Obviously, I'd have gone wrong. So if you made cases on the other players with the expectation that I wouldn't listen to them unless we got to 5 players, then yeah, I'd listen after that.

But before then? I really don't think anything anyone will say to me is going to shift my opinion away from this.
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Post Post #3371 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:49 am

Post by mastin2 »

Like...I know it's a bad idea.
I KNOW I
should
be open to the possibility I'm wrong.
I know that I should listen to the fact that I've BEEN wrong on these strong feelings.
I know that I should be willing to have an open mind, and change it if there's a solid case to sway me.
I know. That's good play. That's what I should be doing.

...But I can't.

If I were to describe this feeling?
It's the "flipped switch" feeling. That something has clicked into place.
Yeah! Stupid. I know. But it's there.

I should be asking for opinions from Nacho. I should be asking sangres in general to convince me they're right. I should be listening to zMuffinman. To Mollie. To everyone. On who they think is scum and why. I should eventually be following the conftown. I should be doing all of that and so much more. I should be.

But what I want to be doing.
What I really, really want to be doing.

Is to simply say, "Trust me", and for people to sheep me, even though I'm normally not the strongest player of those here that are living. And that if I were wrong about Venmar, to then sheep me onto zMuffinman.
In spite of how I know that should be a bad idea, to lose two days to someone who's been utterly wrong before, and also as a consequence lose two conftown if it turns out that I'm in error. I know that. I shouldn't be asking you.

But I really, really want to.
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Post Post #3372 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:02 am

Post by mastin2 »

(Side-note, but when the people in the dead QT read my posts above, I kinda get the impression they're either going, "FUCK YEAH! Mastin just won the game." Or, "NO! NO! BAD MASTIN, BAD! BAD! BAD!" :P)
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Post Post #3373 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:52 am

Post by mastin2 »

Oh, heck with it. I'll do random analysis anyway.
In post 205, Flandre Scarlet wrote:
mastin2

I'm tempted to agree about the wagon on Brian. Also leaning town on you thus far.

Brian Skies

What are you thinking of the contents of your wagon?

Kazekirimaru

If I wanted people to know who I was, I would be on my main account. That being said, you're the only one who really called out my naked vote on Brian. Townpoints to you.

Skullduggery

Yes, selfvote was an option. I did like your bit about getting used to quote walls however.

ActionDan

I'd like to see you try What are your thoughts on the Brian Skies wagon?

Venmar

What made you want to vote Metal Sonic?

orcinus_theoriginal

I'm not really understanding your interaction with Brian. If you don't want someone to declare intent/ask for a claim why did you participate in keeping him at L-1 rather than unvote before anything happened?
Everyone here is known town except Skull, Brian, and Venmar. The bit about the Brian Skies wagon could also be important since I said:
Not really liking this wagon. Skull's almost certainly town, and Kagami's got a high probability of being town, yet the other three...not so much. (Which is another reason to townread Brian Skies. )
With Varsoon, zMuff, Metal Sonic, and Brian himself adding themselves to the wagon, and me saying town/maybe-town/null/town (respectively), and also calling Cephrir out on him WKing the wagon. (Which he was.)

Speaking of which, I'm heavily inclined to think Cephrir was WKing rather than defending a scumbuddy, which would make pidgey's slot town as a result.
In post 539, Flandre Scarlet wrote:I like Brian Skies catch up posts, they felt genuine, along with his reaction to the flashwagon.
The macmollie/sangres interaction felt like a TvT to me.

I'm liking orcinus_theoriginal's hated claim.

I kinda feel two scum in {pieguyn, mastin2, zMuffinMan} but it's a gut instinct more than anything. But, I feel like part of the wagon on mastin2 is a burden of proficiency wagon.

I feel like there's one scum in {Aegor, Skullduggery}
So Flabndre did mention all the neighbors in this post, but I'm honestly not seeing the issue with that, given that they were most of the active players in the game at that point and there's no obvious grouping. Given that both SSK and Cephrir were off this list entirely, it's quite likely that Flandre wasn't casting focus onto scumbuddies, one way or the other. If there's scum, it'd be in the names lumped in without reason, which we'd know would be either zMuff or Skull. Basically, my working theory is that Flandre only cast attention (be it positive-light or negative-light) on town players, so as to keep scumbuddies in the background. (Admittedly, this theory could be confbiasing evidence to fit the read, but it's a point I want people to consider all the same.)

Accentuated here. I'm fairly certain there are more players than that, such as Metal Sonic, that were left out. Flandre as scum is obviously going to remember scumbuddies better, which does give credence to this idea.
In post 1450, Flandre Scarlet wrote:
In post 1445, borkjerfkin wrote:sangres, Cephrir, Angry Frat Bros, ActionDan, Aegor, Skullduggery, orcinus_theoriginal, pieguyn, Varsoon
TTNTSTNNN

The current composition of the wagon on me. The disguised policy lynch is amusing, to say the least.
Town on sangres, Cephrir, Dan, and Skull; Null on AFB, Orc, Pie, and Varsoon; scum on Aegor. Seems important; we know that all the nulls are town. The question is if there's only one scum in the town (Cephrir) or two. I'm inclined to it being only one.

Admittedly, I am ignoring some Brian Skies interactions that make pidgey possible-buddy. But I see said interactions as essentially null, in that I see Flandre making them regardless of Brian Skies's alignment.

SSK's iso increases the chance of zMuff being a scumbuddy slightly, though.

Also, reading Cephrir's iso (skimming, actually) makes Skull not look like scum. I also think that his reads oddly switched after I scumread him. It's kinda sorta as if he had one plan, then I ruined it, and he switched to another. (Yes, I'm fully aware of how egotistical that sounds.)

/really meh quick analysis. If you can call it that.
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Post Post #3374 (ISO) » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:56 am

Post by Iecerint »

Who replaced Cephrir? I don't see him in the OP other than among the dead.
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