NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[ThAdmiral]

Why do we always disagree about everything?

Is it because you received a mafia role PM this game? I dont think we've been the same alignment ever. (Usually Im scum not you though )

Holy shit you're right. not about the me having a scum pm, but I literally think we've never had the same alignment!

[Mister Rogers]

The BB issue is a non-issue and low hanging fruit. Its a great thing for scum to make noise about just as you seem to be doing. I would expect better from you.

Yates sort of actively discouraged people from badwagoning on PV

Pardon me but are you guys a hydra? Or is it scum buddies? I mean, why are you answering for Yates here?

How about I join Yates and adovcate your lynch

Uh. How am I "advocating" a Pere lynch? My vote? You realize votes are scum hunting tools, right? My vote is on Pere specifically because I'm

in the process

of determining his alignment.

You really think Yates is going for a low hanging mislynch whilst going out of his way to discourage voters on the wagon?

No. I think he's been making noise on a non-issue when he had ample opportunity to do something better.

There is a difference between accepting the possibility of daytalk and presumptively declaring that it exists in an argument.

Are you guys high? If you think scum have day talk, isn't that exactly something someone would do? Also, even if you think Bipolar is Town how does that in any way reflect on Zdenek's alignment?

Hes not though? Hes arguing that town reads on the situation are naive, not saying that day chat exists and therefore the situation was 100% fake.

I would expect scum to be making the same argument.

[Plessiez]

It's day 1. Deadline for the day is March 28th, 21:59 UTC. That's (expired on 2014-03-28 17:59:48).

Vote Count 1.8

pisskop [3 votes] (DeasVail, bjc, Luca Blight)
Luca Blight [3 votes] (Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty, talah)
Yates [3 votes] (Nero Cain, pisskop, Mister Rogers)
Damon_Gant [2 votes] (SnowStorm, mastin2)
PeregrineV [2 votes] (Yates, RachMarie)
4nxi3ty [1 vote] (ThAdmiral)
talah [1 vote] (AngryPidgeon)
bjc [1 vote] (Peregrine V)
mastin2 [1 vote] (BipolarChemist)
aptil [1 vote] (projectmatt)
AngryPidgeon [1 vote] (Zdenek)

1 player is not voting

: {aptil}

With

20

players alive it takes

11

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

[Mister Rogers]

@Mod: Is it possible that you might include prod status in your VC's?

[Mister Rogers]

@Mod: Is it possible that you might include prod status in your VC's?

@Mod: The VC is wrong because I am voting Yates

[talah]

- I'm sheeping Deas to get a more solid read on him, and I think his vote on Doc was legit

So Doc posts a one line, pretty whatever vote on Molla and votes on Doc are legit because? What do you expect from DV to help you read him here?

I did mention that afterward I believe (so you may have read the answer to the same question if you were doing a catch-up) but I do believe you post a few attacks so we may as well go about this methodically. I *don't* expect an unexplained naked vote from Deas, so Deas can have a town lean. I *do* expect information from a wagon or pressure thereby. So I dunno. There are a few people who have expressed townreads on Doc, which I don't really understand. (In light of the pisskop entrance I may concur but we'll see I guess.) Ultimately I thought it was a positive move from Deas at that stage of the game, which was worth supporting especially considering Doc pretty much *added* to what Mister was saying rather than bringing in any particularly original content. Mister's 'Ok Corral' response is one of those things which had me wondering too. (But at this stage it would do my head in to think Mister's scum - I'm at the point where I'm still doubtful because of specific quotes or statements but the idea that scum could post like he's posting just doesn't make sense.)

I have a question mark on townreading you mainly because you seem a bit more proactive (or maybe 'pushy') than I remember and also don't remember you having scumhunted using PoE before.

It's a function of free time, as in "how much do I have?" that affects my mafia playing. And PoE is not super realiable, but it's a good springboard to start day1.

Okay, well glad you're active-r than I remember. The last couple I've been unable to townread you until you do something later in the game which clicks. You're not a lynch candidate for Day 1 as far as I'm concerned (and as laughable as me saying that may seem :P)

I read a few pages.

Why am I scum? And why is the vote spread so large?

I can't help it. Why me? = Fry me.

:DD

That aside - we don't appear to be "doing wagons" this game, although I'm up for them. Seems like whoever gets wagoned just lurkfucks their way out of actually providing content. Luca's promised some though, good wagon I think.

[Mister Rogers]

vote: Yates

Because 323. Nope, that's a lot of not matching my limited experience with him.

Can you elaborate?

@PK: Your catchup is not complete.

[Plessiez]

@Mod: The VC is wrong because I am voting Yates

So you are. Vote count fixed.

[Mister Rogers]

There are a few people who have expressed townreads on Doc, which I don't really understand.... onsidering Doc pretty much *added* to what Mister was saying rather than bringing in any particularly original content. Mister's 'Ok Corral' response is one of those things which had me wondering too.

At that point Doc was seeing something that I saw and my post acknowledged that. Of course, what ruined that was his subsequent post regarding your wagon & the BJC wagon which demonstrated a mindset that was far worse than just a simple RVS push. I put a query out to him about this but he never returned to the thread and I have read him as scummy ever since.

PK has not completed his catchup and my read of him at this point is mixed.

[talah]

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks organic to some of you???

What does the time frame have to do with it?

Everything? The timing makes it look orchestrated.

I was reading along with this when it happened (think at work). That was one of the things that I was sketchy about. It happened, I expected a reaction when I saw it (and - man I

hate

fake vig's - they're just the cheapest form of reaction testing ever, everyone expects them and they're so prolific, like some kind of cheesy threat), but it fizzled out so quickly and with such a quick conclusion from Zdenek that I really didn't know what to think. I didn't think Chemist's responses were authentic - I mean the fact that he's asking Zdenek whether he can still post or not implies he *knows* that Zdnenek is town?

I dunno. My gut was that it was bullshit but on the re-read it looked okay.

1) What allies did I call for? Was it:

a) Deas and mastin, suggesting if we're all town we might join forces, in the extremely early (as in, I-couldn't-possibly-have-a-read early) response garnering comment I made?
or,
b) The entire roster of people I have previously interacted with in the playerlist?

2) Who were the other allies that I was *also* sheeping?
I'll tell you right now that I've sheeped scumreads before, because I think it's a useful way to find out if there's conviction and validity behind a case, and to see of others join a wagon and why.

3) What case did I react badly to? The case being made about me? Which I know to be bullshit? Do tell me how I was supposed to react in your eyes to a super-early overblown case which was 'ur post ain genuwin son', or if you're referring to something else, please clarify.

You appear to be twisting words to exaggerate the validity of your vote, and I might add that your entrance was pretty much what you appear to be accusing me of, in that you sheep Mister and appear to buddy up to him by implicitly agreeing with everything he's said and adding the 'coalition' statement.

Talah continues to make scummy posts. Seriously look at this post ^. I guarantee you none of that bullshit is going to help Talah scumhunt anybody. All that is is OMGUS with a dash of "You can't PROVE Im scum" and trying to paint Doc as scummy with a pretty bad hypocrisy case. And a ton of smokey questions on top of that to make the post look actually meaningful. Wow. Lynch this.

This would absolutely help me to get a read on Doc if he had decided to answer. Clarification of assertions is an awesome scumhunting tool.

OMGUS I've answered. It's something I do because I have balls. When I get a town role I tend / have tended to think I'm unstoppable. I've actually mellowed a lot lately thinking about my game and interactions with other people, plus have had a couple of intense RL things to deal with lately - but ultimately I'm quite fine with my questions to Doc and if he'd actually responded then I may well have gotten a read on him which I could be comfortable with and move on.

So Gutread time:

Positive:
Bipolar
Devas
ZD
Luca
snowstorm


Noted:
Peregrine
bjc
Rogers


Negative:
Thadmiral
Talah
Yates
Demongant


I went into skim mode by page 8. too many ppl to track in one go. Ill go back and look at points of interest. Starting with DocHoliday.

Would you please do me a favour and at least throw a sentence in about *why* you're reading folks in the way you are?
Cause like - you have Snow and Luca in positive and Admiral, Yates, Demon (and me at that stage) in negative - all of which I disagree with - and you really have a 'noted' against Mister?

It's very difficult to understand where you're coming from analytically with a readslist like that.

[talah]

There are a few people who have expressed townreads on Doc, which I don't really understand.... onsidering Doc pretty much *added* to what Mister was saying rather than bringing in any particularly original content. Mister's 'Ok Corral' response is one of those things which had me wondering too.

At that point Doc was seeing something that I saw and my post acknowledged that. Of course, what ruined that was his subsequent post regarding your wagon & the BJC wagon which demonstrated a mindset that was far worse than just a simple RVS push. I put a query out to him about this but he never returned to the thread and I have read him as scummy ever since.

PK has not completed his catchup and my read of him at this point is mixed.

K. Mine too actually but had a gut town following along - so interested in his further posting.

[Mister Rogers]

I mean the fact that he's asking Zdenek whether he can still post or not implies he *knows* that Zdnenek is town?

What is this? How about surrender from someone that knows he's dead? I don't even see your point being applicable though...

[@PK]It's very difficult to understand where you're coming from analytically with a readslist like that.

I agree here.

[Mister Rogers]

Also, Talah the attack from AP you just quoted, I had the

opposite

reaction that he did. Its that post a few others that give me a mixed feeling on him too.

[DeasVail]

271 is odd because I wouldn't expect 'gut-feels' to have the impact that they did on ThAd's reads.

And Mister's on top of it.

324 is trying to sound confident while also not at the same time. Weird....

358 is potentially townish (will cover in my explanation of the ThAd read)

Just being transparent here, but this reason for thinking I'm town and the dislike of me being OMGUSy are both not great.
Me as scum (under the alt Schillinger) attacking Reck precisely because I *knew* he wouldn't be lynched
viewtopic.php?p=5345108#p5345108
(the Curren$y youtube at the top of that page is frockin' AWESOME just by the by)
Me as town and my theory on OMGUS
viewtopic.php?p=5348546#p5348546

Talah, convince me that there was any point to posting this other than to make yourself look more town.

Explanation of some reads coming tonight!!!

[Mister Rogers]

271 is odd because I wouldn't expect 'gut-feels' to have the impact that they did on ThAd's reads.

I would very much like Thad to address this.

[talah]

I saw Zdenek's vote coming from halfway around the map.

Good. Then you know what I am thinking and should be town reading me.

If you'd voted me in post 124, 126, 128, 135 (and 135 is baffling since that was one of the reasons masting

specifically said

she was scumreading me - and in that post you say I'm misrepresenting what occurred but then present a representation of what mastin *actually meant* - actually fuck it I'll quote it),

- Zdenek, from your perspective

don't you think it's a reasonable assumption

that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum?

Yes

, but that doesn't need to be the reason that they think you are scum.

Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?

All of this fits with the Mastin I know and I don't think it's alignment related. However, I think

you are misrepresenting what actually happened

. Mastin

read your content, thought it was scummy, voted you and also didn't like your reaction to the vote.

Emphasis mine. Anyway...

...or post 227 (where you assert that I'm being unreasonable assuming that mastin is *implying* an interaction-based read in his vote on me, and then go on to say that me therefore questioning interaction-based reads is a scum-gambit on my part)

I think mastin's view of the townie thought process is about right. I think that talah asking about interactions, which mastin never mentioned, is an attempt to get mastin to argue for something that the never claimed, force him into arguing a particular point or have him admit that he doesn't think that the interactions are scummy. The second comment seems to me to be simply manipulative. To me it boils down to Talah saying: if you think I'm scum, then you must think that I've fooled Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers is town, but wrong, which is really not a remarkable opinion to hold in a mafia game at all.

Yeah, then I might know what you're thinking. But right now I have no idea.

[talah]

Just being transparent here, but this reason for thinking I'm town and the dislike of me being OMGUSy are both not great.
Me as scum (under the alt Schillinger) attacking Reck precisely because I *knew* he wouldn't be lynched
viewtopic.php?p=5345108#p5345108
(the Curren$y youtube at the top of that page is frockin' AWESOME just by the by)
Me as town and my theory on OMGUS
viewtopic.php?p=5348546#p5348546

Talah, convince me that there was any point to posting this other than to make yourself look more town.

There's no other reason. Although can I rephrase and say it's to convince folks who care to click links that I'm town?

[Mister Rogers]

@Talah: Do you ever post your reads in a concrete way? How about a top 5-6 scum list?

[Mister Rogers]

@Mod: Is Luca still in prod status?

[talah]

So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?

This is scum upset at being caught for the wrong reasons.

Well it's funny, but that's what I thought about mastin's self-meta when I wasn't really citing on meta but rather personal experience/intuition.
I thought the ole "scum butthurt because caught for the wrong reasons" was a bit hackneyed to raise though. Sort of like her saying "this is not a town mindset" when I asked her why Mister and I was town vs scum.

Anyway I'm not interested in a Day 1 mastin lynch if I haven't mentioned that enough times already.


Ed: Mister, I'm getting to the point where I'm done for the night, have been catching up with current events. This is the first time aside from one post at work where I've posted from a PC and for some reason the text box keeps freezing on me but at least I can post quotes.

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game. I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline. The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum. Why don't you jump on Luca or something? Barring actually ISOing I can't remember a thing Snowstorm has posted either. Fuck Nero too.

[Mister Rogers]

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game.

You should.

I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage

I don't like this.

but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline.

Or this as it doesn't jive well with the quote above and I don't like emphasis on town reads over scum.

The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum.

What you mean to push??

Why don't you jump on Luca or something?

Last time I checked, its better to vote active scum reads and I have a few of them with the addition now of Yates.

[talah]

ebwop: I don't want to sift through Yates without a better understanding of actual producers.

Grape producers? Cheese producers? Huh?

I'm not buying the "fake vig". Nor the "town reaction". But I'll have to take a look back to see what exactly irked me about it.

Unf. Talk to me about this. I agree and Im concerned that Yates is the only other person to step up to the plate on this one.

Yeah alright. I think I covered most of it though. Re-read looks okay. But Zdenek bailed on his strong push pretty quickly only on the basis of the reaction. Initially I thought it was bull - scum setting something up and carrying through. Yates' call on it seemed quite town and in line with my thinking as a natural reaction so there's that anyway. There were also a few cheerleaders (which I think you pointed out as well - Mister's reaction was a bit OTT and my mind went back to wondering if he was some kind of Uber-Scum consolidating Zdenek and Chemist as townreads, but paranoia'll do that). But then I read back and didn't really mind the interaction although I think I'm always going to find the ole fake-vig cheap.

I'm giving it the nullest of townreads on both, and a bit less on Chemist, if that's possible. Zdenek's leaning town for questioning and pushing anyway.

[Mister Rogers]

Ok, actually almost all of my scum reads are lurking. I guess we have a problem with the game state. Aptil & BJC are prod dodging and I het this. Luca is active lurking and I can't figure out if he is being replaced or not. Mastin has a very unfortunate V/LA and I feel sorry for them.

[talah]

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game.

You should.

Er, no. I'll have precisely the amount of scumspects as I think are scummy. Probably I'll have a 'leftovers' list which contains most if not all of the scumteam. I don't know where you get this theory that I should have more scumreads than is actually possible in a 20 player game. If there are two scumteams it's 'traditionally' harder to find scumspects because scum get to, you know, actually scumhunt the other team.

So please explain why 5-6 scumreads is rational.

I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage

I don't like this.

Good for you, champ.

but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline.

Or this as it doesn't jive well with the quote above and I don't like emphasis on town reads over scum.

I'll be focussing on who I think is town and ultimately checking out whether I like their pushes for lynch. My own pushes for lynch which have succeeded are statistically terrible, and so now I prefer to build consensus. I'm not a good leader.

The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum.

What you mean to push??

For scum to *hide in*, lurkfucking the game away, with no pressure and not needing to post or put themselves on the line.

Why don't you jump on Luca or something?

Last time I checked, its better to vote active scum reads and I have a few of them with the addition now of Yates.

Fair enough. I tend to like wagons in larges, at least there's some analysis available later if there are some reasonable townies driving wagons who are prepared to control them.


Anyway that's enough for me tonight but I'm approximately caught up. Something like post 340.

[DeasVail]

Talah Townread

I will note that this isn't a super-strong read, as I do not doubt that talah has the ability to fool me as scum. I also am not getting the 'I <3 talah so much' feels that I got from him last time we played together (I was scum though, so this may not be a valid influence on my read!). I would lean towards a townread right now because of a number of things I like.

-I think the analysis of my tendencies as scum was spot on. Not using it against me when it would have been possible to later on was also very logically sound and townish.
-The whole multifaction theory and how he went about revealing it was weird and wonderful and kind of town.
-His approach to AP, particularly the parts about how he joined the game and his ability to read Mastin.

~~

Bjc townread

I believe there is more credit to the townreads based on his first post than some people think. Actually consider it.

Scum generally want to avoid attention. This already makes his post quite undesirable for scum, and I think that someone fairly new (as bjc seems to be) would be especially hesitant to do something so potentially controversial. The other scum option is to attract attention, and use it to create early townreads on oneself (e.g. by claiming scum and then making it clear it was a reaction test and 'scumhunting' from it). However, the posts that follow his 'scumclaim' seem to suggest that he isn't trying to look good, but at the same time, the fact that he actually scumhunts from it leads me to conclude that he's genuinely scumhunting while not being showy about it as I feel scum would be.

~~

Yates Townread

10. This is the big one. I'm really confused as to why everyone is handing out Town reads for an obvious fake kill? I mean... look at this:

Spoiler:

Kill: BipolarChemist

Fuck this noise.

...

Man, you don't really get that I'm being sarcastic do you?

Well it doesn't matter cause you're dead and I won't have to worry about it any more.

Fair enough. At least I'm just VT, yo. I assume I can post until I'm actually dead? At least that's what I got from the rules.

Whelp

Unvote

Vote: Gant

^Ye sorry bro. Antagonizing you was fun, didn't really expect a vig

Well at least we know you're town.

Or do you?! MUAHAHA. No ya I'm town.

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks

organic

to some of you???
Matt?

Unvote

Aww man, BipolarChemist is most likely town

ThAd

??

Ok I take back everything I said about zdenek. The fake-vig was golden. bipolar is now basically conf-town, that reaction doesn't look fake at all.

Gant??

Also, I like the fake vig - a lot.

What's weird is that I haven't been reading Zdenek as scum, yet I can't shake the feeling that the fake vig shot interaction looks super contrived. That bjc chainsaw defense is also standing out in a vacuum.

Going against what seems to be an already established opinion, while making a point that I actually agree with? If he was a girl and I was a girl, I'd probably say something like 'You go gurl!' Hey, I'll say it anyway. YOU GO GURL!
Wacky theories like this being some huge set-up (I actually see Bipolar being scum more likely than Zdenek being scum at this stage) are also pretty town in my opinion!

~~

PeregrineV townread

I find him quite vapid as scum, so it's the force and personality behind is play here that's making me like him.

~~

Damon_Gant townread

That's not scum logic - that's bad logic. Unlike others in this thread, you will not hear me chuck around certainties like "you're scum" - certainly not at this early point of the game. My scumhunting is merely analysing the probability that I feel each person is scum. That anti-town joke upped bjc's percentage chance immediately in my eyes, and the others still have some catching up to do. As long as bjc's percentage is the highest, my vote will remain there - but I am by no means close to certain of course, because certainty at this phase of the game would be idiocy of the highest order.

DG staying strong and sticking to his guns, even if it means he has to say how different he is from everyone else! There is no attempt to fit in here. He is an individual and reveling in it! Also note his lack of rush to provide reads.

~~

Aptil scumread

Talah's point about aptil claiming that bjc was lynchbait is a good one. The fact that aptil doesn't even provide a response to this makes it look even worse. You'd think that if you believe someone is lynchbait, you'd take the opportunity to actually.. well... stop them from being lynchbait, especially when someone asks you why you townread them! I think he's just scum.

~~

ThAdmiral scumread

24 is very odd to me. It feels more like scum trying to come up with the most 'town' reaction to the reaction test than anything else. Look how cool I am, voting for bjc even though I

know

it's a reaction test! Um no that's not how it works.
Why couldn't he just vote for bjc without making a big deal out of the reaction test thing? It looks like scum trying to cover themselves!

His opinion on bjc in 103 is very 'fencesitty'. It feels less like an opinion and more like pressure dodging.

I find his scumhunting lacklustre and disappointing. Examples include the bjc scumread in 143 and his questions in 91.

I think the rapid turnaround on Zdenek despite scumreading him previously doesn't make much sense, especially considering how he admits he's 'a sucker for a fake vig gambit' and only brings forth 'gut-feels' as the reason for the rapid turnaround.

I'm less convinced about what I saw as townish before, so the scumread stays.

~~

Despite having more to say about ThAdmiral than Aptil, I don't actually feel that confident in ThAdmiral being scum right now (I suspect that I may be conf. biasing so I'll have a re-look later), so:

Unvote: Pisskop
Vote: Aptil

Pisskop still hasn't given us anything that I consider very town, so he could still potentially be among my scumreads. 4nxi3ty may have moved there as well, but I will investigate this more later.

If there's a read I haven't given an explanation for, feel free to request it.