NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Mister Rogers]

But no, I'm not going to have 5-6 scumreads in a 20 player game.

You should.

Er, no. I'll have precisely the amount of scumspects as I think are scummy. Probably I'll have a 'leftovers' list which contains most if not all of the scumteam. I don't know where you get this theory that I should have more scumreads than is actually possible in a 20 player game. If there are two scumteams it's 'traditionally' harder to find scumspects because scum get to, you know, actually scumhunt the other team.

So you're bringing up multi-ball and

as an excuse

why?

So please explain why 5-6 scumreads is rational.

How about any from you?

I might have a couple of scum leans at this stage

I don't like this.

Good for you, champ.

I meant to bold the word "might" like as scum you would be creating a theoretical list once you got around to it which is how you sound being so detached.

but I'm mainly looking at townposting and for D1 who's the most likely scum to push / advocate / agree with a few days out from deadline.

Or this as it doesn't jive well with the quote above and I don't like emphasis on town reads over scum.

I'll be focussing on who I think is town and ultimately checking out whether I like their pushes for lynch. My own pushes for lynch which have succeeded are statistically terrible, and so now I prefer to build consensus. I'm not a good leader.

You know, DV's post got me thinking. My townread on you has been of your

defense

from others and I realized that I don't have any proactive reasons to call you town. Your game in fact has been entirely reactionary with only lip service and going through the motions of gaining scum reads. The problem is, you don't have any.

The amount of lurkfucks at the moment is prime real estate for scum.

What you mean to push??

For scum to *hide in*, lurkfucking the game away, with no pressure and not needing to post or put themselves on the line.

Its also a great place for scum to vote since they have an ironclad excuse.

---

If I had two votes...

I can't figure out which is worse Yates pushing daytalk or Talah pushing multi-ball.

[Mister Rogers]

If it turns out we have multi-ball, I am going to be coming back to this.

[Mister Rogers]

@DV: There is scum motivation to go against the grain on ZD-Chem.

You also have provided 7 reads in a 20 player game. You could just go through and fill in the remaining 12; especially Mastin.

[talah]

Mister, I'll post back tomorrow. I've just spent four and a half hours reading through the thread, giving my opinions. But if you want to vote me, why set it up? Why not just do it?

Dels, your most recent post is like a wind of joy. I'm glad you're town.
And no, I'm not fooling you, or anyone. I'm just town.

UNVOTE: Luca
VOTE: aptil

[talah]

Rucking autocorrect.

[Mister Rogers]

Mister, I'll post back tomorrow. I've just spent four and a half hours reading through the thread, giving my opinions. But if you want to vote me, why set it up? Why not just do it?

Because I need to stay where I am. There are various posts scattered about that I have addressed to you that I am looking for your response on. Have a good night's sleep.

[talah]

I noticed I missed a couple of of your posts during tonight's posting but if you want to iterate what you want answered it would be good so I don't have to be taking tally of your questions for follow up.

Your 386, if I was dayvigged by scum I would be fucking livid, not asking that scum whether I was still allowed to post. That means Chemist either knows Zdenek's alignment, or strongly suspects he's town.

And once again I don't make excuses, I explain what I'm thinking. When multiball's in play confusion can come into play because there are 'too many town' - ie if you're working from PoE based on who's scumhunting you can end up with a deficiency of scumreads and end up townreading folks just because they're trying to catch other-scum out. Something to watch out for and totally moot until we get a scumflip.

A balanced amount of scum would be 4-5 in a 20 player game depending on the setup.

And I think that's all aside from maybe a readslist?

From memory:

Prob-town:
Deas
Yates
Damon
Pere
Admiral
Pidgeon
Rach
Zdenek
YOU

Maybe-town:
matt
4nx
pisskop
bjc
Chemist

The Rest:
mastin
Luca
aptil
Snow
Nero

[Mister Rogers]

I noticed I missed a couple of of your posts during tonight's posting but if you want to iterate what you want answered it would be good so I don't have to be taking tally of your questions for follow up.

Putting them together into one post after I answer this.

Your 386, if I was dayvigged by scum I would be fucking livid, not asking that scum whether I was still allowed to post. That means Chemist either knows Zdenek's alignment, or strongly suspects he's town.

Yup. Well I guess I am in the same boat as Chem because even though I have read a game with scum day-vig, I totally forgot about that possibility. Anyone else think "scum dayvig" here?

And once again I don't make excuses, I explain what I'm thinking. When multiball's in play confusion can come into play because there are 'too many town' - ie if you're working from PoE based on who's scumhunting you can end up with a deficiency of scumreads and end up townreading folks just because they're trying to catch other-scum out. Something to watch out for and totally moot until we get a scumflip.

The default is one scum team, not multi-ball but you used it as a reason for not having scum reads.

A balanced amount of scum would be 4-5 in a 20 player game depending on the setup.

Generally, having an extra scum read is normal. but my issue is with your none and how casual you are about the whole thing.

And I think that's all aside from maybe a readslist?

From memory:

Prob-town:
Deas
Yates
Damon
Pere
Admiral
Pidgeon
Rach
Zdenek
YOU

Maybe-town:
matt
4nx
pisskop
bjc
Chemist

The Rest:
mastin
Luca
aptil
Snow
Nero

So your Mastin scum read has vanished and has been replaced by a PoE read? That doesn't sound genuine. Was your push on Mastin genuine?

[talah]

I'm hedging hard on mastin because of the way she dropped off scumreading me. I'll wait to see what further posting brings in that regard. But I pushed because I felt she was scum.

Now why don't you get off your arse and push something yourself? I absolutely glazed over your three mega-post IoA glory-reads. I literally have no idea who you're thinking is a good lynch for today.

And you're irritating the shit out of me just coming back to me, again and again, and you're confused as to whether lurkers could be scum?

Summin ain't right Lucy, and I'll thank you not to wish me a good night in future, cause it's just fucking creepy.

[Mister Rogers]

1) It ain't IoA when its filled with reasoning.

2) Lurkers will sort themselves out (post/replaced) or be sorted (wagoned for prod doging) -- its far too convenient to just simply lob a vote on a lurker which is why its scummy when its the primary thing a person does.

3) I sort of meant the good night as an olive branch because I come off kinda harsh at times but its ok that it bothers you; I wasn't trying to bother you.

Your point on Chem reads as the surrender of a townie that knows they are dead.

[pisskop]

Would you please do me a favour and at least throw a sentence in about *why* you're reading folks in the way you are?Cause like - you have Snow and Luca in positive and Admiral, Yates, Demon (and me at that stage) in negative - all of which I disagree with - and you really have a 'noted' against Mister?

Okay. saddened you guys want me to explain things.

So Gutread time:

Positive:

Bipolar - Mostly based on his consistent posting of one liners. The 'fake vig' had a little to do with it, and his disinterest in the game after reflects him finding it silly.

Devas - actually I'd only put him a null+. His posts strike me as transparent, and although he could be scums, we can follow his thoughts well enough atm.

ZD - I actually do feel like they are hunting. posts like 231 (esp the comment on 202) make me happy.

Luca - aside from my one game with him where he was a dead tortoise until day02 (where he became very active) I have no reason to townread him. He doesn't have enough completed games to meta. So Newbie 1462.

snowstorm - word? Im thinking he may be one of my better feels. Best 6 posts ever. Now of course he's lacking in reads and not interacting with a large portion of the playerlist, but ehh, I definitely don't like him for D1 lynch.


Noted: (i.e. I don't know how to feel about)

Peregrine - I haven't ISOed yet.
bjc - bjc seems to have rolled town in every fairly matured/completed game we've been in. Not touching his slice of wifom atm.
Rogers - Haven't ISOed yet. saw him about the site and wanted to save it.


Negative:

Thadmiral - already covered
Talah - already covered
Yates - Im in another current with him, and even if he was a stranger his purely catchup posting is suspicious.
Demongant - already covered

---

Can you elaborate?

Nopers. Based on his play in another large game I don't like him here.

It's probably, you know, his lack of content and lack of conviction in his reads.

o.o 10-4. Still don't like it.

It's very difficult to understand where you're coming from analytically with a readslist like that.

It is a gutcheck. Its in fact nothing more than my feeling after of reading/skimming.

Grape producers? Cheese producers? Huh?

[Zdenek]

Angry Pidgeon is here to save the day!

Do you think he's town?

I am pretty shocked about ZD's reactions regarding your posts.

AP is posting nonsense. The "I don't see why town couldn't make that post" argument is nuts and the you have to specify exactly what the scum motivation argument is too. He's using fancy rhetoric, but his thoughts are contrived.

I didn't think Chemist's responses were authentic - I mean the fact that he's asking Zdenek whether he can still post or not implies he *knows* that Zdnenek is town?

What would have been authentic?

Yeah, then I might know what you're thinking. But right now I have no idea.

I only get one vote, I was using it somewhere else at the time. Now, I'm using it somewhere else again. Laa dee daa.

But Zdenek bailed on his strong push pretty quickly only on the basis of the reaction.

It wasn't just the reaction. It was the also the claim and BPC being antagonistic. It was good enough for me at the time.

I was dayvigged by scum I would be fucking livid, not asking that scum whether I was still allowed to post.

I hadn't thought about this. I still think that there is a certain consistency in BPCs thoughts - the comment about antagonizing me being fun, and expressing an interest in going playing in a friends game - they jive with him not being upset.

[Zdenek]

He comes across as apathetic, which I would attribute more to Town in the early stages of a game as opposed to scum.

Where does this idea come from?

[Yates]

Nope, that's a lot of not matching my limited experience with him.

Welcome to the game. You should probably read it first.

Awe shucks... I can help you out with one thing:

Spoiler:

Based on his play in another large game I don't like him here.

The game I replaced into, you mean? You are assuming I play my replacement games [with mostly people I don't know] the same as the games I start in [with about 50% players that have some to great meta Yates knowledge] the same? Also, this means you are saying you know my alignment in the other game where I haven't flipped yet? That's some stellar meta knowledge, dude.

I think that if he's scum, then he's scum who claimed VT on one day one of a large game and will get busted any way.

So he *could be* scum but he's at least scum that claimed VT so whatevs?

So you think it should have happened faster?

Yes. It should have looked even more scripted. <- That's sarcasm, btw. I felt the need to point that out since you are missing a lot of obvious points lately.

Uhhh, Zd lets not pull bullshit gambits on people. There was nothing town about that reaction, ESPECIALLY the certainty that came with it... Every fucking fake hammer in the game ends up being on scum and they go "LOL IM VT WHATEVER" and then everyone calls them probtown. Fucks sake.

<3

Actually it makes perfect sense. You are trying to assign scum motivation to people's reaction to the bjc post whilst leaving the -exact- motivation up for interpretation.

<3 x2 - Welcome to the game!

I can't figure out which is worse Yates pushing daytalk or...

Quote me the post where ANYONE says they think scum have daytalk.

Are you trolling me right now?

You know

I was thinking similar veins about scum daytalk

.

I can't figure out which is worse Rogers pushing daytalk or pretending he didn't.

The BB issue is a non-issue and low hanging fruit. Its a great thing for scum to make noise about just as you seem to be doing. I would expect better from you.

A. Low hanging fruit is low hanging fruit because it's low hanging. But that's not really what I'm doing so who cares...
B. You didn't actually answer the question; What do you think my vote is about? This is kind of important.
C. Why would you expect "better" from me in particular? I have a history here with a few people that could actually make that statement [Pere, as it so happens, being one of them]. You don't make the cut [neither does pisskop, for that matter]. AND if you did expect "better" from me, as you say, then why wouldn't you acknowledge I'm very likely playing an angle here that you aren't seeing yet? Especially since you can't answer the question I asked in B...

I am not liking you.

That sometimes happens when I call scum out on their bullshit. *shrug* But then, you already know that about me, right?

YOU GO GURL!

Talk to me about Mister Rogers and Zdenek. I need to get out of tunnel mode while waiting for Pere to get in here.

[Zdenek]

So he *could be* scum but he's at least scum that claimed VT so whatevs?

It means he can never do the nk and there are a variety of power-roles that could potentially catch him if he's scum. It means that he has very little wiggle room to get out of anything.

[Zdenek]

Yes. It should have looked even more scripted. <- That's sarcasm, btw. I felt the need to point that out since you are missing a lot of obvious points lately.

If it happened slower and I would have thought that he was taking time to perfect lies.

[Mister Rogers]

@PK: Perchance, are you an alt?

[Plessiez]

Discussion of ongoing games is not allowed.

Consider this a general warning.

[4nxi3ty]

Where does credit for a lynch factor in here?

I think Anxiety is saying that Luca could be defending a scum buddy but trying to leave wiggle room should he flip? I just reread that like 5 times and Im still scratching my head.

nah I was saying that it looks like Luca is whiteknighting for cred but still wants the wagon to stay, ergo "but it could be some sort of ridiculous bluff"

Let me put it another way: Compare the motivation for scum to undercut their own scumread vs. undercutting their own townread? What's more likely? Do you see the difference between my post and luca's? That's the point I was making. I guess you could say giving myself wiggle room makes alot of sense, but I still think that is silly given it was my first post and just barely out of rvs.

(I dunno why you are encouraging this line of topic, AP, considering you recently called me town and that the mister rogers v. anxiety was a distraction.)

It's probably, you know, his lack of content.

not true. Sure I'm not doing what the majority is doing (flooding the thread with quote stripes and readslist), but I'm still throwing ideas out there and interacting with multiple people.

Not sure how I feel about DV floating me into his scum section without commenting/pressuring/interacting with my posts. Would like to hear what he specifically thinks of my play so far?

[Yates]

It means he can never do the nk and there are a variety of power-roles that could potentially catch him if he's scum. It means that he has very little wiggle room to get out of anything.

I get it.
BipolarChemist claimed VT.
I understand what a VT claim means.
I also understand what a VT claim DOESN'T mean.
A VT claim DOESN'T mean that the person is auto magically vanilla OR town.
You seem to be assuming this.
Assuming this is bad.
That's the point.

If it happened slower and I would have thought that he was taking time to perfect lies.

If it happened over the course of a day or two it would look less contrived. This is a minor point in a big picture gut read.
1. I think fake vig shots are lamezors
2. Fake vig shots are pretty common and not alignment indicative of the faker.
3. Fake vig shots are pretty common and not alignment indicative on the target.
4. Fake vig shots are about on par with fake hammers in terms of information - ie. none.
5. The whole gambit happened in a short period of time almost without interruption.

Let's look at this a different way...
When is the last time you saw a fake vig shot catch scum?
OR - since this will give you are larger pool - when is the last time you saw a fake hammer catch scum?
Cripes, in ALL the REAL hammers you have seen - in what % of those hammers [excluding end game] did the scum just give up the ghost and go "awe shucks - you caught me. Good job!"

THIS is my point. Some of you [you specifically] are acting like your WIFOM bomb of nullness is some sort of game changer. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around.

PE: Sorry, mod.

[Zdenek]

What makes you think, that I think that it is some sort of game-changer? I don't think that, by the way, it's just strange that's the impression that you have.

[Zdenek]

I really don't think that it's even possible for the whole thing to have happened over a day or two. We were both there typing at once.

This is probably the first time I've seen someone suggest that interactions taking place over a longer period of time seem more legitimate.

[Mister Rogers]

I can't figure out which is worse Yates pushing daytalk or...

Quote me the post where ANYONE says they think scum have daytalk.

Are you trolling me right now?

You know

I was thinking similar veins about scum daytalk

.

I can't figure out which is worse Rogers pushing daytalk or pretending he didn't.

Yes I did leave that post out there. But nowhere do I say I think scum have daytalk. Using that argument to push against Chem is exactly what I would expect from scum and YOU'RE the one that did it.

The BB issue is a non-issue and low hanging fruit. Its a great thing for scum to make noise about just as you seem to be doing. I would expect better from you.

A. Low hanging fruit is low hanging fruit because it's low hanging. But that's not really what I'm doing so who cares...
B. You didn't actually answer the question; What do you think my vote is about? This is kind of important.
C. Why would you expect "better" from me in particular? I have a history here with a few people that could actually make that statement [Pere, as it so happens, being one of them]. You don't make the cut [neither does pisskop, for that matter]. AND if you did expect "better" from me, as you say, then why wouldn't you acknowledge I'm very likely playing an angle here that you aren't seeing yet? Especially since you can't answer the question I asked in B...

Ok. This is kind of amazing because both you and Pere are playing at me the same way. It is kind of confusing actually. In fact, I feel like I am being smoothed over here. Yes, I like that Pere is doing this "wait and see gaining reads" angle and he has yet to produce fruit from it AND OK, you are pulling a similar angle with him specifically -- so I am basically left with this "I'm going to throw up my hands and wait" while I watch both of you.

Basically, I am in deep waters with both of you, they are murky and I am not sure what is there yet...

I am not liking you.

That sometimes happens when I call scum out on their bullshit. *shrug* But then, you already know that about me, right?

I never said I knew you and you haven't called me on any bullcrap. In case anyone hasn't noticed you townread me and basically left me alone. I'm the one that started this.

I need to get out of tunnel mode

Ya no kidding.

---

Now excuse me while I go and at least try to figure out the answer to your "B" which if it is impossible for me to do as you appear to state, there had better be an explanation that we can all see, mmkay?

[Zdenek]

Let's look at this a different way...
When is the last time you saw a fake vig shot catch scum?
OR - since this will give you are larger pool - when is the last time you saw a fake hammer catch scum?
Cripes, in ALL the REAL hammers you have seen - in what % of those hammers [excluding end game] did the scum just give up the ghost and go "awe shucks - you caught me. Good job!"

I think that it's somewhat rare to catch scum in single instances, but what this has done is it's caused people to take stances on me on BipolarChemist, hell even on things like gambits. Depending on how the game goes, these may be useful later.

[pisskop]

-On Rogers

Spoiler:

30 did not like. I know he's stabbing at my slot, but its more than that. It feels more like trying to find a case to push, not find scum. Too nitpicky imo.
Complimentary post 26 and his underlined business. Seemed self explanatory as to who 'him' was.

47 okay, its clearly a style with him to question one's choice of words. But that just means I'll have to watch his choice of of words/which words he focuses on and from whom. Is he accurate and prompt on addressing all 'offenses' or selective? Nope. too much for my brain.

Look if you express reservations when you vote it allows you to excuse your behavior using said reservations as an excuse.

Towniest thing he's said yet. Also deciding that ISO isn't the best way to read Rogers . . .

97 gives mixed feels. I want to see it as genuine, but I don't like his appeal and his questions.

111 so much no. Is he buddying? How did he just get through explaining how he has played mafia for years and now is looking up to Thad and Mastin and learning sooo much from them?

155 I don't see how that

needs

priority response. I find it completely obvious, but then again I cant say its inherently scumzors. Just rings like it could be an attempt to poke in an attempt to pretend scumhunt.

190 I think I know why his style bugs me. He could easily bus a partner while appearing to be hunting around. do not trust, but cannot find a good handle on a scummy thing.

Doc is a scum read of mine but Gant, my gosh, somethin' ain't right there Lucy....

Doc, scummy. Talah, scum. Doc could be scum. Talah

is

scum. Also, even if scum, there is such a thing as bussing. Especially in the RVS.

That said, while talah's scum...
VOTE: Damon Gant.
...My scumread here is much, much stronger.

You're going to have to explain the whole "Talah

is

scum" but "My scumread here (damon gant) is much, much stronger".

I don't want this to be missed and it needs responding to.

Wha~? Why did you vote Gant but question mastin for similar sentiment? ESP since Mastin did not explain until 20 posts later.

Scales of scumread? Doc is minor. Talah was medium-strong. (Now is weak-at-worst. Give me a while to mull it over.) Damon is super-mega-basically-confscum-strong.

249 You know who MR forgot in his readlist? DG.

Four out of five scumreads are lurky/noncontent players. Mastin form my experience doesn't do back and forth too much.

Scum: Rach, Luca, Aptil, Doc, Anx, Mastin

I don't even want to go on. I don't like Rogers.

@PK: Perchance, are you an alt?

no


@ Yates
Fine. Ill meta a bit and get back to your in-game contents.