NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Mister Rogers]

I just noted you you did that. The reason I am voting for you is a lackluster approach to scum suspects & a bizarre cog-dis in your approach to the game. It just appears like you are trying to skate through by simply commenting combined with a "lynch me or lump it" attitude.

With that being said, I don't like how ZD is being so mysterious with his reads either. Pere's ISO reads: BJC is the entire scum team, you all are town and everyone else bleh.

Nah, but he is the most obvious, and it'll be informative to match townreads to his scumflip.

I got a couple of town reads lurking like Snow & Matt too.[/quote] I'd put both at null-scum.

[/quote]Luca fencesat BJC, he didn't call him out. He town postured the issue which is like barfable but at least he's not saying "I'm lurking deliberately".[/quote] I'd vote Luca too.[/quote]

Me too if it came down to it. I will also vote any of my scum reads.

[AngryPidgeon]

Hes engaging in things that are interesting to him (imo)

I do sort of do that, but if I engage in things that don't interest me, then it's probably fake. Maybe a judgment thing that comes with experience.

Someone in this game used the word "vapid" to describe your scumgame. I sort of agree, no offense to your scum game . I think you just wear your town-cards on your sleeve if that makes sense. Its hard to fake genuine interest. Mastin is kind of similar, but mastin spins things actively and mimics meta well as scum so you have to peel the onion to get to the stinky center first.

Talah,
Can't help but notice your distinct lack of mentioning bjc at all in a post about lurkers. Nor about his attitude about the pressure being applied to him. Nor about the fact he finally posted.
Please help me to understand.

That Talah is actually scumreading Luca over non-posting is worrisome. The distinction with which he assigns reads to lurkers is inscrutable and scummy.

Tell me some of the good info we'll get from his lynch.

No one ever said anything about info? BJC is actively refusing to post anything readable which is anti-town at best, scummy at worst.

I would vote Matt before most other lurkers. I skimmed his ISO at one point and it felt a little uninspired?

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried.

Awesome, and the Luca and aptil wagons are better alternatives or are you just defending people randomly?

[Mister Rogers]

the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried.

This is what I mean.

[PeregrineV]

Too tired must sleep.

The one thing that is burning in my mind is:

Pere should not be allowed to sideline, posting helpful read guidelines & screaming about BJC. This without actual scum hunting is scummy.

PEDIT: @ZD -- I want to puke.

Am I on the sideline? I think I've been pretty clear. And you are just as clearly agreeing with me while chastising me about it.

C'mon, He didn't start this game out lurking AND being defiant about it.

Most people have a wait and see attitude regarding your play but well that thought was literally burning in my mind.

I'd rather have you harassing me to think all game than just ignoring me.

And I've found that my earlier reads are better than my later ones.

Angry suggested Gears of War Mafia.

Subject: Gears of War Mafia - ( Game Over! )

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4798959

That seems kinda a reach for this early in a game... I don't even particularly like meta cases at any point in a game, but this early just feels somewhat off.
@Angelius: have both heads posted, or is this just Arc/just Nero so far?

So you don't like meta cases, which are mostly completely subjective anyway, and, in addition, bork's meta case feels "off"? Like, he shouldn't be able to produce it, or he produced it badly, or he's wrong, or you want him to think he's wrong?

Vote:

Knight of Cydonia

Super extra lynch vote:

Majiffy

Lost me post from here earlier.

In summary:

Town

1. Colonel Guile ( Uberninja/guille2015 hydra )
5. Angelious Nero ( Nero Cain/ArcAngel9 hydra )
6. PirateCat ( Pirate Mollie/Malakittens hydra )

8. Majiffy

9. AngryPidgeon
10. The Goat
15. Jal
17. mastin2

Not so much:

The Rest

My early read was on scum (he talked me down from it enough to unvote) and my townreads where extraordinarily (for me) high.

Later in the game I started seeing things not there, and half-pushing weak cases on scum so that they never got lynched.

So, I'm going to stick to an early scumread this time unless the scum himself can convince me otherwise.

[PeregrineV]

Hes engaging in things that are interesting to him (imo)

I do sort of do that, but if I engage in things that don't interest me, then it's probably fake. Maybe a judgment thing that comes with experience.

Someone in this game used the word "vapid" to describe your scumgame. I sort of agree, no offense to your scum game . I think you just wear your town-cards on your sleeve if that makes sense. Its hard to fake genuine interest. Mastin is kind of similar, but mastin spins things actively and mimics meta well as scum so you have to peel the onion to get to the stinky center first.

Talah,
Can't help but notice your distinct lack of mentioning bjc at all in a post about lurkers. Nor about his attitude about the pressure being applied to him. Nor about the fact he finally posted.
Please help me to understand.

That Talah is actually scumreading Luca over non-posting is worrisome. The distinction with which he assigns reads to lurkers is inscrutable and scummy.

Tell me some of the good info we'll get from his lynch.

No one ever said anything about info? BJC is actively refusing to post anything readable which is anti-town at best, scummy at worst.

I would vote Matt before most other lurkers. I skimmed his ISO at one point and it felt a little uninspired?

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried.

Awesome, and the Luca and aptil wagons are better alternatives or are you just defending people randomly?

They are all over now, but I had a period where 6 of my 7 games at the time I was scum. Vapid would have been an understatement to describe my overall play, including the one where I was town.

[Mister Rogers]

vap·id
ˈvapid/
adjective
1.
offering nothing that is stimulating or challenging.

I guess related to vapor. Learn something new every day.

[Mister Rogers]

So,

I'm going to stick to an early scumread

this time unless the scum himself can convince me otherwise.

LOL. I mean I just don't get this. I mean seriously, I think right now you fit a scum profile better than he does.

[Mister Rogers]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Lolz, I'll get on that

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

I'm scum.

Lemme guess: "reaction testing"?

vote: bjc

There you go, now you can call me scum for "taking the bait".

I mean I kind of just stumbled onto this but its really kind of bizarre how this all went down and you both end up taking the exact same tact. Is there any explanation for this?

[projectmatt]

Tell me some of the good info we'll get from his lynch.

No one ever said anything about info? BJC is actively refusing to post anything readable which is anti-town at best, scummy at worst.

Uh yeah actually, Mr. Rodgers literally said "we gain good info from their wagon". Did you just intentionally misinterpret what I said?

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried.

Awesome, and the Luca and aptil wagons are better alternatives or are you just defending people randomly?

What? I just said that I think that the Aptil wagon is a much better alternative and I am currently looking to get an opinion on Luca. Clearly, my defense on BJC isn't founded on nothing.

[projectmatt]

BJC is the worst of them and we gain good info from their wagon. At least the others sound repentant.

Unvote, Vote BJC

Tell me some of the good info we'll get from his lynch.

The best info we will get is his alignment. The reason why its good is because he has been a very popular push.

If BJC is town, are there any players in particular you are expecting to be able to read better after the flip?

[AngryPidgeon]

Uh yeah actually, Mr. Rodgers literally said "we gain good info from their wagon". Did you just intentionally misinterpret what I said?

Oh apparently I missed that Rogers post. I assumed Rogers was voting him for being willfully obtuse.

What? I just said that I think that the Aptil wagon is a much better alternative and I am currently looking to get an opinion on Luca. Clearly, my defense on BJC isn't founded on nothing.

Ok, what is it founded on then

[projectmatt]

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried. You can say that BJC is scum for not contributing but of course that fails to account for your reads on literally 40% of the other players who are also not contributing. I might be off the mark here, but there's usually a player like BJC in every large normal game that's, well,

lynchbait

. However, this doesn't make them mafia.

+ I read his reaction to being attacked as relatively town. Please note that something being town doesn't mean it has to be good play.

[Mister Rogers]

Uh yeah actually, Mr. Rodgers literally said "we gain good info from their wagon". Did you just intentionally misinterpret what I said?

Oh apparently I missed that Rogers post. I assumed Rogers was voting him for being willfully obtuse.

That is the primary reason but the info is my secondary reason.

@Matt: Look, I just find it bizarre that people, experienced people, would actually scum read him from his early posting. It has stuck out to me all game; apparently you and a few others have noticed it too.

I think he has hurt the game state terribly and removing him would help to address the bizarre push from certain people like Pere & Thad.

PEDIT: I read his posting as town too (after the "scum" claim not because of it).

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Lolz, I'll get on that

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

I'm scum.

Lemme guess: "reaction testing"?

vote: bjc

There you go, now you can call me scum for "taking the bait".

I mean I kind of just stumbled onto this but its really kind of bizarre how this all went down and you both end up taking the exact same tact. Is there any explanation for this?

It's off-topic, but sure.

Spoiler:

My first big game here was Cold War mafia, which I replaced into. ThAd had already claimed, and in such a manner he was confirmed town to me. But, the feeling was not mututal, and he found me scummy at many points. This in turn make me suspect him. Turns out he was town, but town lost.
Next ThAd game (American Dad) he was scum and wanted to lynch me after my miller claim. But he pushed it well enough and I didn't think he was scum until he flipped.
There may have been more, but the next I recall was I was town nieghborizor and picked ThAd to get a better read on. The QT was inconclusive, but he buddied me hard in-thread and I thought "he finally gets I'm town!" until I was dead and scum won that game (Literal Video Mafia, I think).
Another game I picked up a Mason crumb that did not exist (Harry Potter mafia I think) with Thad and another player. SO I read him correctly, and that was what I was shooting for.
Last-most recent game was Mastin's Normal (Maniacal street). We both replaced into a neighborhood where he was a vig. I already had a townread on the slot from the previous players, so it was mostly watching ThAd watch me and how he played in-thread as town while uncertain about my alignment.
The RVS vote and post was a nod to that game.
Suffice to say, I always want to get him figured as quickly as possible, and feel like I have a better than 51% chance of reading him correctly.
And I think he's town this game.

[PeregrineV]

So,

I'm going to stick to an early scumread

this time unless the scum himself can convince me otherwise.

LOL. I mean I just don't get this. I mean seriously, I think right now you fit a scum profile better than he does.

I get that alot.

[Mister Rogers]

Well that's what I thought would end up being the case. Thanks for explaining it and I guess that answers "Thad-Pere" RVS interactions.

[pisskop]

Ok:

Im unsure whats sillier -

-that you have a solid enough scumread on talah to vote me for (quite) publicly waffling on him and yet still vote me

1)

This doesn't actually make any sense. It just looks like an attempt to discredit the vote on you

-that of all the content Ive put forth my read on Talah is your focus. nevermind my 'flip' on thad or my interactions with yates or my refusal to judge the absence of content.

2)

This is what I meant specifically. You having done other things that you consider scummy is irrelevant? Your opinion on Talah made no sense and could certainly be from scum. That you've done other scummy things (in your opinion) doesn't make Zdenek scummy or his vote less valid?

-that you responded to a quote of APs to vote me

3)

So? Your Talah read was a contradiction followed by a hard townread on him over a mostly throwaway post with a couple question in it that he never followed up on or drew any conclusions from. You buddying up to that post is pretty bizarre. Just because I pointed it out, doesn't make it a less valid point.

in short, get bent or get a case.

4)

This is just scummy defensive. Scum like to have cases to refute. Sure this is a point thats harder for me to expliain, but this attitude comes from scum a LOT.

1) Lets look at why ZD is voting me.

[quotes post 433]
LOLZ
Unvote
Vote: pisskop

Poorly explained.
And then this:

I figure Pisskop isn't talking about his Talah read because he's scum and he's hoping no one will notice his shifting read on the slot.

I'm not talking about my talah read because nobody is asking about it. And when I call it out he sits back and instead of elaboration let's you swoop in.
His reason for voting me is weak, and his support poor and wifomy. Yea Im going to discredit a weak vote for arbitrary reasons. If he wanted discussion on my reads he would ask about them.

2) No, I'm pointing out that if he thought I was scum he would make a case or at least point them out. He hasn't done any of it, because he isn't hunting for scum. What makes his vote valid? There's no genuine effort in it.

3) rather than address me directly he takes a path of ignoring me. He still hasn't directly talked to me. I don't care that he used your post to vote me, I'm noting that he is making a deliberate attempt to avoid directly addressing me. Is this a style of his?

4) What I think you mean is its aggressive, and scum use it as much as a town would.

[pisskop]

Since I think the actual issue surrounding Luca is like inane, no, I didn't go look.

I think the PK issue needs addressing though.

That's not what you say here. You clearly think my read of Luca is important.

Which didn't address the point. Why didn't you respond to DG's follow-up to you about it?

First it should be noted that pisskop was playing the completed game with Luca in (Luca was town, pisskop was scum), and so having been in it he has more of a feel for the game as a whole compared to me who just read through Luca's ISO. That being said, I generally disagree with pisskop's bolded statement. Luca would admittedly fall away from the game for days at a time, but his posting was ok if not inspiring. He contributed much more to the early game than he has here, and also did not prod dodge as he has here.

This? I don't see any discrepancy between my attitude about all the non-content posters and Luca.

And, and more evidence that you do think its important.

[PeregrineV]

1) Lets look at why ZD is voting me.
In post 496, Zdenek wrote:
[quotes post 433]
LOLZ
Unvote

Vote: pisskop

Poorly explained.
And then this:
In post 525, Zdenek wrote:
I figure Pisskop isn't talking about his Talah read because he's scum and he's hoping no one will notice his shifting read on the slot.

I'm not talking about my talah read because nobody is asking about it. And when I call it out he sits back and instead of elaboration let's you swoop in.
His reason for voting me is weak, and his support poor and wifomy. Yea Im going to discredit a weak vote for arbitrary reasons. If he wanted discussion on my reads he would ask about them.

His vote and accusation are his way of asking you about it maybe. And calling him out for NOT asking about it gets less mileage, since if you know that's the topic you can give your reasoning without prodding.

2) No, I'm pointing out that if he thought I was scum he would make a case or at least point them out. He hasn't done any of it, because he isn't hunting for scum. What makes his vote valid? There's no genuine effort in it.

Yeah, annoying as shit, huh?

3) rather than address me directly he takes a path of ignoring me. He still hasn't directly talked to me. I don't care that he used your post to vote me, I'm noting that he is making a deliberate attempt to avoid directly addressing me. Is this a style of his?

Another Luca situation. Check 2 town-Zdenek games and 2-scum Zdenek games and you might get have your answer.

[Mister Rogers]

@Pere: Why are you tunneling BJC when Thad has moved on?

[aptil]

I have read the thread and will be posting now . Instead of posting one big wall , i will be posting some reads in this post and others in the next .
So i will start with the players with less number of posts (i iso'd them first) : These are till post #551

Luca : 3 posts Naked votes doc on page 2 . This point we are not in rvs . Does not explain in his next vote , instead it is about bjc . After that nothing .
I am reading him as scum from just the two posts he made .

Nero Cain : 4 posts . Out of which one is a double post so basically 3 posts . He was v/la till 19th so i guess we should give him more time for posting . I don't understand the start with voting Yates though . What is that about ?
He is null to me right now .

Snowstorm : 6 posts : Like his posts . To the point and direct . Reading him as town .

Mastin2: 6 posts : Posted her reads and has also commented on the reasoning behind them . Reading her as town also .

RM : 6 posts : She always has a reason to not be posting . I like her entrance , after that there is nothing much to offer here . Her vote is placed on Nero , does she know he was not here till day before ?
She reads as null to me .

Projectmatt : 6 posts : He has good entry post . He then goes on to vote me . He has mentioned a problem with my post#36 . After that he is absent for a long time and comes back and tells us its his scumday , i don't know what that means .
He reads null to me .

His analysis of my post is wrong . I was not setting up any potential candidates or something , infact i was only reading Talah as a possible suspect and thought as other two people as most likely town . As you said it was page 2 and i was letting everybody know what i thought of the posts so far . Obviously the posts which looked worth mentioning were pointed out .

Yates : 7 posts : Has only 7 posts but all of them have content . Reads town to me .

[aptil]

Projectmatt has started making posts after i started my post , so we re-evaluate him but before that will get on to other remaining players .

[pisskop]

Wha~? Why did you vote Gant but question mastin for similar sentiment?

Its not DG (the player) that matters as much (in this inquiry) and pardon me once again but this is an outstanding query that has not been answered.

Can you elaborate on this?

mastin2 -- scum very bad entry reads, bad vote switch backpedal. So sad r/l tho.

And this, please.

478 Can you use his ingame content to describe this nullscum read? Like post analysis.

I need to look at those recent posts.

Any luck with this?

[PeregrineV]

@Pere: Why are you tunneling BJC when Thad has moved on?

My bjc read is not based on ThAd, although I liked his reaction and found it town. And I liked his reaction to bjc's reaction- I also found it town.

[4nxi3ty]

Re: Thad: "not having strong stances is scummy": very one sided approach. Scum project confidence, and there are times when town are unsure of themselves. One of the things I look for in scum is being confident when there is no reason to be - which is why Mister Roger's aggressive right out of the gate bugged me, yet I think that comes from his personality and eagerness at playing mafia again and his post count certainly fits in with that.

Re: "We can't lynch lurkers, poor info": silly logic, I used to think this too >.< As long as discussion is happening and things are changing, there will be info gained. First priority should be lynching scum wether active or lurking. And there is some merit to figuring out lurkers early on.
(even if you disagree, don't set the tone by bringing up 'lurkers make poor lynches' at least let scum think they'll get in trouble for lurking)

Talah/Mastin Meta Dispute: instinct: when it comes to meta, ime, there's usually at least one scum involved. Either from the two fighting over meta or the person that steps in and defends/attacks one of the others - haven't parsed through this, thought it should be noted anyway.

Had Zdenek and BipolarChemist as town before the fakevig. I get that neither should be autocleared, but I have seen nothing scummy from them since.


I think

aptil

(need to think on aptil latest posts) and luca both make good lurker lynches.
Rach feels relaxed for a lurker.
post 492 and 499 from Nero look like an attempt to get a reaction, which is decent.
bjc has antagonistic playstyle regardless of alignment, I think he will be easier to figure out later on, not interested in that lynch - even policy, there should be times when he cooperates.