Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)

[Venmar]

Pidgey pls, I reread #3397 and I found all of the conclusions you made came out of a hat, those reads are being assigned at random I think.

Like, here's what I got from it and your scumhunting:

Hmm... Skull and Muffin were on the wagon.. ok Skull town and Muffin scum (what?)
Hmm... Mastin and a bunch of people weren't on the wagon.. ok Mastin town and the rest don't get mentioned or the same credit (what?)
Hmm... There were some scum on the wagon... ok Muffin is scum (what?)
Hmm... Not getting much scumvibes from Cephrirs iso... ok Mastin and Skull are now even more town! (right)

[Venmar]

In fact, I think I will.

Nacho, I don't expect you to fully trust me on being 100% right.
But trust me enough to know that I'm speaking with 100% of me behind it. This isn't some half-hearted read. I might not have the most logically-backed case. But please. Read what I'm saying, and give the game a brief look with that in mind. Like...if I thought this was BS, I'd admit it. If I thought I was full of myself, I'd admit it. If I thought that I was entirely wrong, I'd be open about it. But...I don't. This feels solid. It feels right. And pidgey being scum...doesn't. Just like mollie being scum doesn't.

Like...on SSK, there was a piece of me at the back of my mind that I suppressed out of stubbornness that said I could be wrong--that SSK's comment about me having nailed his meta was right, but that his posting this game was the scum version not the town version. (Of course, this is a "take my word for it" thing, since obviously, I have no proof of that and even my own mind is prone to rewriting my personal history.) But I'm thinking.
There's a fear of if I'm wrong.
There's a fear of "what if mollie's scum?"
"What if pidgey's scum?"

A fear...yet not a thought. Like...I guess I could think Brian Skies's posting was relaxed scum. I guess I could think Gooner's strong entrance was an act that didn't accomplish much. I guess I could think that pidgey's lack of emotional outburst is a bad sign for him. But though those possibilities exist, I can't find myself believing them. I ask myself if it's the stubbornness again. That I'm refusing because I don't want to be wrong...again. And I'd be the first to admit that it's not impossible. But...I don't feel like it's true.

This started as just a major gut feeling. But right now...it feels right. It just feels right, for not just some inexplicable gut reason. Because I've actually explained the gut reason, and...it makes sense. The picture fits. It strongly says town, not scum. The town picture looks awesome. The town picture looks legitimate. The scum picture is weak, convoluted, and broken. Yes, it's true. There's no such thing as a perfect town/scum picture. Yet that's the thing: the fact that the pictures ARE imperfect is only serving to strengthen the feeling. And given the choice between a near-flawless-yet-not-perfect town-picture, and a messy-sloppy-hastily-thrown-together scum-picture...I'm choosing the former.

I wish there was some better way to explain this. This sensation. That last time I was wrong, but this time in spite of me having put it all on the line and lost...that this time, I'm actually not. That's what it feels like. Like it's not a mistake. Like pidgey's actually town. That Venmar or zMuffinman or both (most likely just Venmar, though) are the scum here, and that townreads there simply shouldn't be that strong off of what they've given. That's where I'm at. So even if you don't fully sheep me. Even if you don't pull a sudden reversal. I ask that you listen to that. Because while I think my explanation sucks, the point should be getting through the communication barrier all the same.

Please listen.

Holy fuck this post.

Nacho I forbid you to read that post.

[Venmar]

I still think Venmar is our best bet for today, but how receptive is everyone to the possibility of Mollie being Scum? Would that be a suitable compromise if we can't agree on Pidgey/Venmar?

Wow, slow down opportunity grabber.

[pidgey]

lol no i mean im reading cephir but i was just pointing out some of the interesting stuff i dont feel like fucking quoting day 1 but skull seriously would be a mega surprise as scum.

Muffin or you makes more sense from cephir's iso

[Venmar]

That "sorry guiz" attitude, in particular, felt entirely fake.

That's...

rich

coming from you.

[zMuffinMan]

im pretty sure you don't how to properly hunt for interactions

[Venmar]

lol no i mean im reading cephir but i was just pointing out some of the interesting stuff i dont feel like fucking quoting day 1 but skull seriously would be a mega surprise as scum.

Muffin or you makes more sense from cephir's iso

You were reading Cephrir while looking at the Brian wagon too? Cmon, even here you look like you're pulling reads out of a hat.

[pidgey]

i do! but i dont want to feel the thread with d1 shit

but his reads on both you and venmar seem weird, dunno, too safe

Venmar- I was reading cephir then i looked in his iso he quoted brian's wagon so yeah whats so Hat about that

[zMuffinMan]

thing is, that d1 Brian wagon pretty much confirms me as town coz that is *exactly* the sort of wagon id avoid getting on if i actually were scum (vca is something im extremely conscious of when scum)

and if you think ceph makes sense as scum with me then you're not properly assessing the interactions

[Venmar]

I mean, what am I supposed to do with Cephrir? Tell me, the guy had an extremely dodgy read on me the whole game which I recognize, the two of us rarely interacted, and I remember him as someone who came out looking town and slowly started to look scum, who would constantly keep poking me with weird "Venmar is scum.." or "I don't think what Venmar did was so town!" posts. I never payed much attention to me because I quite frankly didn't care, I viewed him as a lesser scumread for terrible reads and bad posts, but otherwise harmless and not a priority. Now, Cephrir having a constant blurry read on me is something scum might do with a scumbuddy to distance, or to avoid making too much of a connection with the partner, I know, and I agree. Yet, the thing is, this can

easily

be done as scum to distance themselves from TOWN as well, so that when said town dies via NK or lynch they can't be easily traced back to said scum. The passive aggression to me from Cephrir is something scum can easily do to browbeat suspicion my way, but at the same time not actually getting fundamentally involved themself to begin with. I think Cephrir unintentionally did this to me, or maybe purposefully, I don't know, and now the innocent me has to pay for it.

However, people also need to notice something, the fact that when I am scum I usually communicate with my scumbuddies in one of two ways. I bus them, or I buddy them. If you want examples, read UDesign, I was scum and I spent the whole game townreading and buddying to my scumbuddy Titus. Read Micro 127:Kill Everyone, where I spend the entire game completely wasting and bussing both of my scumpartners. Those are my two latest scum games too as a bonus. What me and Cephrir have going on here is completely independent of me, and is unlike my scum memo, I usually never go for middle ground relations with my scumpartners, so this is completely coming from Cephrir. Yet I can't refute what Cephrir has said, so i'm at the mercy of the interpretation of the game. Skull just simply decided to only interpret it the one way, not consider any other factors other than Cephrir, and threw out a very cute looking case. Please, FFS.

So how about we get out big boy pants and lynch Skull or Mastin. If I get the motivation to actually star shitting bricks and common posting I will cry,

[Skullduggery]

I still think Venmar is our best bet for today, but how receptive is everyone to the possibility of Mollie being Scum? Would that be a suitable compromise if we can't agree on Pidgey/Venmar?

Wow, slow down opportunity grabber.

If I'm an opportunity grabber for specifying that there are only two people I'd be willing to lynch today, then what does that make you?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Venmar]

Right, there's a difference between me who has had you and Mastin as the scumreads whole day, and you who swooped in to offer compromise on Mollie when the idea of MollieScum was in the air during the Mollie-Muffin arguments.

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Venmar]

I mean, lol, you cleared Mollie as town in #2746, and in #2958 you said you wouldn't lynch Mollie until me and Kaze been lynched. There's really no other mention of mollie until you just threatened to compromise on her? Please, take your bullshit elsewhere Skull.

[sangres]

UNVOTE

Awaiting your post, pidgey.

And Mastin, I'll see if I can get Nacho to have a look.

[zMuffinMan]

unvote

[mastin2]

Can you pull up some examples of this when you get a minute?

I can pull up more examples later, but basically, every bit of zMuff's posting and Venmar's posting after my most recent post? Is basically the type of thing. They're basically tag-teaming.

Mastin is using reasoning to justify her bizzare scumread of me as if she has never played with me before.

I have! Yet this...this isn't the towngame I saw from you in Xenogears. Your play here is nothing like your play there. You keep

saying

it is, but this game feels like a second-rate copy of it, as if it's scum-mimicking-a-towngame rather than town-actually-playing-a-towngame. Like...I don't see the similarity. At all.

PEDit: FYI I was very firmly anti-Brian wagon Day 1.

(Another point against you, for the record, given that one or two scum WKing is to have been expected.)

Holy fuck this post.
Nacho I forbid you to read that post.

Because that post is a post you don't want read; it not only makes it clear where I come from (town mindset), but also helps show why you're scum.

That "sorry guiz" attitude, in particular, felt entirely fake.

That's...

rich

coming from you.

I've had none of that. You: "Oh, lynch MS; he scum." We lynch him, he flips town. "Whoops, sorry."

Me? Me, I'm saying sorry right here and now for not being the player I should be. It does trace back to a root lynch where I was wrong, SSK. But in this case, the whole is much larger than just this game. If you look at Rubicon's Fire and Ice game, I hardcore pushed the mislynch of Surye, at the same time this game I hardcore defended SSK. Only a few players in this game (I think all of them are dead, though) can fully appreciate the scale of what that did to me, to be wrong so much in less than 48 hours, with back to back wrongness destroying my confidence in my towngame. One mis-push, I could call a fluke. Multiple mis-pushes made me rethink my mafia life. And it hasn't been until recent games (such as Tales) that I've begun to gain my confidence back from that disastrous time period. Including here, right now.

That's the difference between a fake "sorry guiz" and an "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahg. sorry. sorry. sorry I suck" outburst. The difference between a scum player posting as a formality and a town player who is recognizing their weaknesses.

And Mastin, I'll see if I can get Nacho to have a look.

In the mean time, I realized I could reach out to you as well and ask your half of sangres to do some work, too. You were in Xenogears; you saw a town Venmar just like me. Do you honestly think his play this game resembles that game? Because to me...it doesn't. At all. Heck, ffery, meta's kinda your thing. You should be able to get a much better picture of him, getting to know his scumgame and have additional towngames to know, if you haven't already. I need you telling me about what you see of Venmar after that. 'Cause what I have points to him being scum, in basically all of his posting.

[zMuffinMan]

They're basically tag-teaming

nope

*tag*

Only a few players in this game (I think all of them are dead, though) can fully appreciate the scale of what that did to me, to be wrong so much in less than 48 hours, with back to back wrongness destroying my confidence in my towngame

well if you were hoping to turn this around by being right about something, i have some bad news for you

[borkjerfkin]

Votecount 6.7

[2] Venmar (Skullduggery, mastin2)
[1] pidgey (Iecerint)
[1] Skullduggery (Venmar)
[1] zMuffinMan (pirate mollie)

[4] Not Voting (ActionDan, pidgey, sangres, zMuffinMan)

With 9 alive, it is 5 to lynch.

Let me know if you see any problems.

Deadline is in (expired on 2014-03-26 08:00:00)

[borkjerfkin]

pirate mollie was prodded.

[sangres]

In the mean time, I realized I could reach out to you as well and ask your half of sangres to do some work, too. You were in Xenogears; you saw a town Venmar just like me. Do you honestly think his play this game resembles that game? Because to me...it doesn't. At all. Heck, ffery, meta's kinda your thing. You should be able to get a much better picture of him, getting to know his scumgame and have additional towngames to know, if you haven't already. I need you telling me about what you see of Venmar after that. 'Cause what I have points to him being scum, in basically all of his posting.

I've played 2 games with him. Both games he was town. And the two games were pretty different. He got a lot of stick from kagami in the mini we played for violating his recent town meta in statistically significant ways.

My takeaway is that his town meta is pretty variable.

I haven't done an intensive meta dive in this game because Nacho has a confident meta read.

But, I will read some more games and see what I think.

[Skullduggery]

I mean, lol, you cleared Mollie as town in #2746, and in #2958 you said you wouldn't lynch Mollie until me and Kaze been lynched. There's really no other mention of mollie until you just threatened to compromise on her? Please, take your bullshit elsewhere Skull.

I cleared Mollie in 2746? That's news to me. All I said was that I thought she was Town at the time, but I guess reads aren't allowed to change and evolve over time, eh?

I like how you vote for me

and then

try to find reasons to call me Scum. Town players do it the other way around, you know.

[Venmar]

There is a difference between consistently (for the most part) calling a player town/leaning town for the whole second half of the game and then flipping the whole read on a seconds notice when said player is thrown in the air as a lynch suspect by the game? Sounds like dirt cheap opportunism to me, and if you want to call that an evolution of your reads over time, then you're either terrible, scum, or just don't understand it wasn't "over time".

Also, Skull, have you seen me make a case this game other than a brief bullet point for MS scum? I never fucking make cases, I know why i'm voting everyone I vote, don't try to fabricate shit.

Of course, you basically completely dodged the post I made about me and Cephrir. Queue you jumping in with an excuse or a BS quote by quote breakdown scum would do?

[Venmar]

I have! Yet this...this isn't the towngame I saw from you in Xenogears. Your play here is nothing like your play there. You keep

saying

it is, but this game feels like a second-rate copy of it, as if it's scum-mimicking-a-towngame rather than town-actually-playing-a-towngame. Like...I don't see the similarity. At all.

I swear we've played more together than just Xenogears. But if you want to compare me to Xeno games, how about you notice a simple pattern? Tunneling? I spent All of day 1 Xenoblade tunneling Sajin until I cleared him Night 1 via hide. Oh, what have I been doing this game? Tunnel MS from Day 1? HOW ABSURD, NO CONNECTION THERE LOL???

But i'm not going to use my own meta to defend myself anymore because I find it absurd to do so.

[Venmar]

(Another point against you, for the record, given that one or two scum WKing is to have been expected.)

Oh, so i'm scum if i'm ON the wagon, but i'm also scum if i'm NOT on the wagon? That sounds like some seriously flawed logic, and sounds like you're just tailoring me to look like scum now.

[Venmar]

Holy fuck this post.
Nacho I forbid you to read that post.

Because that post is a post you don't want read; it not only makes it clear where I come from (town mindset), but also helps show why you're scum.

That "sorry guiz" attitude, in particular, felt entirely fake.

That's...

rich

coming from you.

I've had none of that. You: "Oh, lynch MS; he scum." We lynch him, he flips town. "Whoops, sorry."

Me? Me, I'm saying sorry right here and now for not being the player I should be. It does trace back to a root lynch where I was wrong, SSK. But in this case, the whole is much larger than just this game. If you look at Rubicon's Fire and Ice game, I hardcore pushed the mislynch of Surye, at the same time this game I hardcore defended SSK. Only a few players in this game (I think all of them are dead, though) can fully appreciate the scale of what that did to me, to be wrong so much in less than 48 hours, with back to back wrongness destroying my confidence in my towngame. One mis-push, I could call a fluke. Multiple mis-pushes made me rethink my mafia life. And it hasn't been until recent games (such as Tales) that I've begun to gain my confidence back from that disastrous time period. Including here, right now.

That's the difference between a fake "sorry guiz" and an "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahg. sorry. sorry. sorry I suck" outburst. The difference between a scum player posting as a formality and a town player who is recognizing their weaknesses.

1. I forbid Nacho to read it because it was a shameless appeal to emotion with Nacho, you were/are buddying the fuck out of him with that post and I found it disturbing. That should have been my implication.
2. When I said it was rich of you, I meant it in the way that you gave me scum points for (apparently?) being sorry, when almost every post I bother to read from you has you appealing to several people and being all like "OH I MIGHT BE WRONG, I KNOW GUYS I KNOW, I KNOW". You're always doing it, so how dare you make it a scumtell for ME of all people? See, in the post above you say you are sorry for defending scum in this game (and other games, which I have no idea why it should be in ANYWAY be relevant or used here?) and frustrate at the fact no one appreciates that it makes you feel bad. But when I feel bad for tunneling Metal Sonic, a town, for the whole game, I get the scumpoints in the face? Jesus fucking christ.