Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[Thor665]

Fine, then tell me you do not understand post 549.

Not your opinion of it, or whether you agree with it, but the basis behind the thoughts and summary.

If one were to presume she was saying what you claim she is saying then I would say that your thoughts are presented logically.
I do not think she's saying what you say she is saying.

[Bulbazak]

"I have stronger scumspects" is a pretty good reason to put her in the upper null levels.

Like hell it is. It's no good reason whatsoever to put her

ahead of other null reads

, which you are doing by designating her a "null/town" read.

Why isn't it a good enough reason? Why isn't it a good enough reason to say "I have stronger scumspects." and "I'm not convinced enough of the cases to think she's scum." and "I just get an overall town vibe from her." and put her at null/town?

I am not putting words into your mouth, Bulba. You were the one lumping her in with "a variety of town reads" yesterday. You were the one linking your Smargaret read to your Cxinlee read yesterday.

It seems you are, because for some reason you're not satisfied that I have her leaning town rather than a full on scum read, even after I've repeatedly explained why.

When can we expect you to finish sorting her? Soon, hopefully? Perhaps before she is lynched?

This is low. I don't think anyone is ever truly finished sorting any player, since our view of the game has to change as it progresses. Smargaret being where she is just means that she's a bit harder to figure out for me, although I am leaning town. I also find that fascination with my read in conjunction to when she's going to be lynched highly disconcerting.

Explain your scum read on Anti. Smudger was a solid town read for you and until this post just now, I don't remember seeing any indication that you had changed your mind.

Anti's entrance into the game just didn't feel right to me. I tried to give him a pass based on my reads, but he wasn't as strong a townread as Smudger was. I also don't like how he's dodging questions today. It feels like he's trying to take a backseat and let other's take the focus.

I don't see why you're scumreading CTD, Thor, he's coming off as nicely Town for me.

Why's that?

@Thor: I'm not seeing PV-scum, but I would join you on a CTD wagon.

[Thor665]

@Thor: I'm not seeing PV-scum, but I would join you on a CTD wagon.

As in; you think his responses to me about opinions and cases make sense and come from a town mindset?

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how they come from a scum mindset.

[penguin_alien]

[quote="In post 876, Bulbazak"]Anti's entrance into the game just didn't feel right to me. I tried to give him a pass based on my reads, but he wasn't as strong a townread as Smudger was. I also don't like how he's dodging questions today. It feels like he's trying to take a backseat and let other's take the focus.[/quot

How was Smudger a solid town read for you? I don't like Antihero's OTT reactions to me, but it was definitely Smudger that made me think the slot was scum initially.

CTD, I guess scum might own their mistakes like that, and I agree that smargaret wasn't going to avoid being linked with the cxinlee lynch regardless. But I don't remember scum-smargaret being that brazen. I'll reread the scum game I have with her to see if reviewing it shakes up my take on her, since BRO isn't commenting.

[Bulbazak]

How was Smudger a solid town read for you?

I really didn't see anything scummy from him, and I felt he was likely town due to his actions surrounding the Zek wagon.

[smargaret]

Penguin, the only way you have a scum game with me is if you're an alt. I haven't been scum since I started playing again, and I stopped before you joined.

CTD, weren't you putting together a case on me? Where is it?

PV is still misrepping. I responded to why I didn't question Zek. I had a townread on him. I was trying to get reads on the other players. I've said this multiple times now; I don't get why it's so hard to understand.

[Thor665]

I don't see how they come from a scum mindset.

Then shouldn't your read be null?

[jasonT1981]

Day 3 Vote Count 5

smargaret 3 - T S O,PeregrineV,CrashTextDummie
PeregrineV 2 - Thor665,smargaret
AntiHero 1 - BROseidon,
Broseiden 1 - Bulbazak,

Not Voting

AntiHero
penguin_alien

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-02 16:40:08)

till Day 3 Deadline

[PeregrineV]

Penguin, the only way you have a scum game with me is if you're an alt. I haven't been scum since I started playing again, and I stopped before you joined.

CTD, weren't you putting together a case on me? Where is it?

PV is still misrepping. I responded to why I didn't question Zek. I had a townread on him. I was trying to get reads on the other players. I've said this multiple times now; I don't get why it's so hard to understand.

The hard to understand part?

Let's start at 95
96-99: Thor and XScorp talking

XScorpion seems town however wanting another town lynched seems mis-read

103-107: Thor and XScorp talking

Thor is very town. Porkens is sort of town
VOTE: Zekrom
Like 1/2 scumread 1/2 policy at this point. I also agree that Bulba looks too twitchy. XScorp I'm unsure of, and everyone else is doing fuckall for me to read them >:C

109-110:Thor and XScorp talking
111-117:Thor-Bro-Zek talking
118: Porkens

My reasoning wasn't totally clear. It was 3 am local time, in my defense.

Basically, there's a big mess that I wasn't really up to sorting through at 3 am between Thor, Porkens, and Bulbazak. It looks likely that one or more wagons could conceivably come out of that. If T/P/B are all town, then scum would like to encourage those wagons - and not draw a lot of attention to themselves and risk derailing the hypothetically building wagons by trying to start RQS once the game has actually begun. On the flip side, if any of T/P/B are scum, or are distancing, then presumably scum-Zek would know that and would have a planned out response, and I really, REALLY doubt that any entire scumteam would argue for randomly starting RQS. It's WIFOMy, but I don't see any reason why scum-Zek would play that way.

That said, given the lack of a daystart PM, it's probable that the list of currently-active players is disproportionately scummy. Presumably scum would have been told to stop talking in the qt, so they'd all be aware day had started while town players had no idea.

123-127: Porkens-Buba-Thor talking
128-138: Thor-Zek stuff
142-149 :Bulba-Porkens-Zek stuff
155-167- Thor-Zek-Porkens-Bulba

Thor - what's the difference between lynchbait and low-hanging fruit? Specifically re: your reply to me about cxin and your reply to Yates about Zek. I'd quote, but ipads are annoying and I don't feel like switching to the real computer.

Porkens - Do you still think Thor and Bulbazak are scum? Do you think Zek is scum with them? Why?

Bulbazak, though - I don't know that I'd call it a flinch per se, but definitely overly defensive. Do not like.

Zakk - anything else to say? Because calling someone out around one post when we have seven pages of actual stuff to go on (as opposec to questions about emotional state) and then nothing else? That's a bit fence sitty.

cxin - It means don't active lurk. If you're going to post, respond to the thread or actually draw conclusions, don't just post "OHAI, I'm here, nothing to say!". If you don't have an opinion, reread the thread and develop one. What is your read on Zek? In fact, who are your top three scumreads and why?

So, based on this timelime, I want to understand how you developed the Zekrom townread using any of his 18 posts prior to your post 119.

[PeregrineV]

@smaragaret- Part2 of the exercise is what about the others three players posting rang as scummy to your that they needed to be investigated MORE than town-Zek.

I feel we were reading the same thing, and you reached a puzzling conclusion. Until the zek-flip.

[CrashTextDummie]

Thor, I'm going to try this again, more nicely this time and with a minimum of snark:

Your scumreads are off. Badly. You're barking up the wrong trees. I think you are town. I want to work with you in lynching scum. That can't happen unless you realize your reads need to change.

Yiley was literally replaced for not playing the game. Not for getting prodded too much, for outright not playing. I could remind you that apathy is more likely to come from town than scum, but I doubt that would sway you. But how on earth you derived a scum read from his play is truly beyond me.

I am not trying to misrepresent you. You just don't like to hear what I'm saying. There's probably nicer ways to say that your play this game has sucked, but it doesn't change the fact your play has sucked. You are pushing a second mislynch. You've set yourself up to push another mislynch after that. The reason people aren't sheeping you on Pere is because doing so is a scum move. It's probably no coincidence that the only person who has done so is Smargaret (*hint hint*).

Would you still read Pere as scum if Smargaret were to flip scum? Or me for that matter? You aren't town reading Smargaret, so the possibility should at least register with you.

I'm town reading Peregrine for the quality and accuracy of his reads. For matching my thoughts almost exactly at the time of his replace-in. For his excellent vote. For the ease with which he's interacting (particularly his interactions with you, which read as very coherent and care-free to me). For the way he's trying to form reads on people. His scumhunting this game is arguably the most focused out of anyone. Add in the general landscape of the game (Smargaret's vote on him in particular) and my previous experience with him and you get one of the stronger town reads I remember having.

I'll deal with Smargaret and Bulba in a bit. For real this time.

[Thor665]

Your scumreads are off. Badly. You're barking up the wrong trees. I think you are town. I want to work with you in lynching scum. That can't happen unless you realize your reads need to change.

This is the epitome of a generic comment that can be said to anyone whose reads you disagree with.

Yiley was literally replaced for not playing the game. Not for getting prodded too much, for outright not playing. I could remind you that apathy is more likely to come from town than scum, but I doubt that would sway you. But how on earth you derived a scum read from his play is truly beyond me.

Show me any evidence that apathy comes from town more than scum?

I am not trying to misrepresent you. You just don't like to hear what I'm saying. There's probably nicer ways to say that your play this game has sucked, but it doesn't change the fact your play has sucked. You are pushing a second mislynch. You've set yourself up to push another mislynch after that. The reason people aren't sheeping you on Pere is because doing so is a scum move. It's probably no coincidence that the only person who has done so is Smargaret (*hint hint*).

CTD. Your reads suck. You have done nothing this game but come in and sheep a lazy wagon while adding nothing to it. No one else is getting on that wagon because it is a suck and scum wagon. One of the only two people voting it is Pere (*hint hint*) and his case is based on a misrep/lie and you haven't even managed to describe your case on her.

Would you still read Pere as scum if Smargaret were to flip scum? Or me for that matter? You aren't town reading Smargaret, so the possibility should at least register with you.

If Smargaret flipped scum I'd townread Pere, I would not likely change much of an opinion on you. He's at least trying to own the case.

I'm town reading Peregrine for the quality and accuracy of his reads.

Like...which?
I voted for Zekrom.
I had Porkens and Yates as town.
So, literally all you have is our disagreement on Cxin, and I was openly admitting of doing that one out of mild deadline apathy. So...bbasically it's the Cxin read then? Or am I missing something here?

For matching my thoughts almost exactly at the time of his replace-in. For his excellent vote. For the ease with which he's interacting (particularly his interactions with you, which read as very coherent and care-free to me). For the way he's trying to form reads on people. His scumhunting this game is arguably the most focused out of anyone. Add in the general landscape of the game (Smargaret's vote on him in particular) and my previous experience with him and you get one of the stronger town reads I remember having.

I feel you're overstating that.
I don't think his opinions angle reads remotely care free and easy, and instead reads awkward and forced.
The rest doesn't contain enough info about it for any viable opinion to be reached by any outsider.

I'll deal with Smargaret and Bulba in a bit. For real this time.

I am a'quiver with anticipation.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how they come from a scum mindset.

Then shouldn't your read be null?

I never said it wasn't. I just don't see the case.

[CrashTextDummie]

This is the epitome of a generic comment that can be said to anyone whose reads you disagree with.

Is that a bad thing?

Show me any evidence that apathy comes from town more than scum?

Burden of proof is on you. You are scumreading my slot for this. Show me that it's more likely to come from scum than town.

I made that statement with 7 years of experience in mind, not specific games, and I'm neither going to dig through past games, nor am I going to run statistics for you.

Like...which?
I voted for Zekrom.
I had Porkens and Yates as town.
So, literally all you have is our disagreement on Cxin, and I was openly admitting of doing that one out of mild deadline apathy. So...bbasically it's the Cxin read then? Or am I missing something here?

What's your point? For one thing, I'm also townreading you. For another, I also generally like his reads on unflipped people.

[CrashTextDummie]

I don't see how they come from a scum mindset.

Then shouldn't your read be null?

I never said it wasn't. I just don't see the case.

Why isn't he null/town?

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm not going to get much into Pere's argument against Smargaret, other than to state that I agree with it.

Smargaret didn't just defend Zekrom, she was making excuses for him ("he's anti-town, but maybe it's because he's transitioning from IRL-mafia!", paraphrased from #258) to the point of hypocrisy:

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town.

Her original reasoning for voting Cxinlee, which could be applied word for word to Zekrom's play, but she had an excuse for that as well: Meta (even though she's usually the last person to advocate for it).

She was also very busy trying to create a counter-wagon, including this overzealous nugget after Bulba added some steam to the Cxinlee wagon.

Her defense against all of this, to the extend that she's been questioned, is "whoops, I guess I misread him". I've recently finished a game where scum was also lynched on D1 in Wisdom. RedCoyote-buddy had hardcore defended him as well as hardcore attacked a townie (Nacho). His only defense was also "whoops, guess I was wrong", and he got almost universally townread for his trouble. Nacho had to apologize profusely to me once he wisened up, because I saw right through the ploy from the start. I'm going to make the same argument here as I did there: Scum will shamelessly push their agenda if all they have to do to defend themselves is convince the town they were sincerely and spectacularly wrong. It's a comfortable position to be in for scum. They don't run much of a risk of triggering most commonly applied scumtells (inconsistency, fence-sitting, etc.). They have a handwave excuse for all their misdeeds, and in today's meta, many people seem to be susceptible to this kind of argument.

The deciding question here is whether it's feasible that Smargaret had legitimately developed a town read on Zekrom so strong that she would go to such great lengths to defend him. The answer in my mind is a resounding "no". I find it unlikely for her to develop a strong town read to begin with (and her complicated Bulba/Thor/Porkens monstrosity of an argument doesn't do the trick). I find it completely unlikely that she would never once waver on this read, even after it was clear that Zekrom was flat-out refusing to cooperate.

From D2 onwards, it becomes apparent that her scumhunting is extremely flat, superficial and singleminded. I never got the impression that she was particularly interested in figuring out Cxinlee's alignment, it was "scum, scum, scum" from post 1 (with a distinct flavor of "I deem your play anti-town and your refusal to change it legitimizes me to push you relentlessly"). She never showed interest in figuring out the majority of the player list, in fact, she has no opinion on record on anyone except Pere and Antihero. Only once did she really pick up anything to distract her from her single-minded push against Cxin, a lazy read on Yiley, only to drop it again soon after never to be mentioned again.

Her current vote, is lazy and hypocritical. Her stated reason for scumreading Pere is:

PV needs rope because he's pushing me, but he either hasn't actually read the posts he's citing as evidence of my scumminess (specifically, where I got the townread on Zek) or he's misrepping like heck.

And this after she explicitly stated that scumreading her for defending Zekrom is "fair". The timeline is roughly:
Smarg: "You suspect me for misreading Zekrom? Fair".
Pere: "Then let's talk about why you town read Zekrom."
Smarg: "WTF? I already said I was just misreading him! Stop misrepping! Scum for pushing me."

To summarize, Smarg has exclusively play a pro-scum game, in everything she did. She is not actually scum hunting. Her reads don't make sense. She is very likely scum.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why isn't it a good enough reason? Why isn't it a good enough reason to say "I have stronger scumspects." and "I'm not convinced enough of the cases to think she's scum." and

"I just get an overall town vibe from her."

and put her at null/town?

Point out where you previously stated the underlined.

[T S O]

CTD, who's smargaret's scumbuddy?

[CrashTextDummie]

Possibly Bulba. I need to do some rereading before I can give a more encompassing answer.

[T S O]

I feel like I'm really detached from this game at the moment. You've basically taken my opinions, made them better and articulated them a lot better.

It's rather demeaning.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, who's smargaret's scumbuddy?

What's your answer to this question, TSO?

[penguin_alien]

Penguin, the only way you have a scum game with me is if you're an alt. I haven't been scum since I started playing again, and I stopped before you joined.

CTD, weren't you putting together a case on me? Where is it?

PV is still misrepping. I responded to why I didn't question Zek. I had a townread on him. I was trying to get reads on the other players. I've said this multiple times now; I don't get why it's so hard to understand.

...I was thinking of you being a miller in Mini 1500. Details, details. But reading back through your ISO there, it doesn't make me think you're scum here.

I need to reevaluate here, not so much on Antihero and smargaret but more on the rest of the game. I think I like TSO, Thor, Bulbazak for town. BRO is right that his own play here is similar to Calvin and Hobbes, but I also think his town game is pretty different in confidence since then, and I don't know why he's reaching for that.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how they come from a scum mindset.

Then shouldn't your read be null?

I never said it wasn't. I just don't see the case.

Why isn't he null/town?

Why does it matter which level of null he is? Null is null to you, right? Tbh, I do like his play for town, but I'm being a little cautious of calling him town until I can take the time to look at him more. I've been distracted as of late, and this game hasn't had my full attention.

Why isn't it a good enough reason? Why isn't it a good enough reason to say "I have stronger scumspects." and "I'm not convinced enough of the cases to think she's scum." and

"I just get an overall town vibe from her."

and put her at null/town?

Point out where you previously stated the underlined.

I've been calling her some level of town since d1. I think it should be obvious that I got some level of a town vibe off of her.

[T S O]

CTD, who's smargaret's scumbuddy?

What's your answer to this question, TSO?

Definitely not me, you, Thor or Pere. Everyone else, I'll have a look at.