NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Mister Rogers]

You wanna know who did call me out? Pere, DG & Matt (and earlier AP & Yates). Did I bite their head off or go all ad hom on them? No, I simply explained my position. I haven't seen you do the same thing.

[talah]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

[Mister Rogers]

Ah that reminds, I've actually changed my mind about Pisskop. I kind of liked the way he responded to me last night. I think his reads are pretty bad but I can see what he's doing.

+1 Wow I think I am very glad you are here.

See, in this instance I don't even know what Rogers is saying. Is he saying that Snork is town? Is he saying that pisskop it town? Both? Is he buddying Snork?

Who knows. Certainly not anyone.

Thanks for actually asking in thread. I am reading something very similar on PK and am using the exact same words to describe it. I believe that Snor's catchup (cats in ketchup are not yummy tho) post was incredibly townie. If he is scum he has mastered the art of catching up. I do find it bizarre that you could of scum read him from that catchup and especially since it wasn't even near complete when you formed the read.

[talah]

My take on it was that it was a progression. Initially I think he thought he could manipulate me (coercion into voting lurkers) & buddy me (compliment me on BJC improving the game state) but once it became official (I posted my short scum list & re-voted him), he named me as a scum suspect.

Rogers states that I was coercing him into voting lurkers, and then posts a large scumlist, which is mainly lurkers. Which he then refuses to vote.

In This Post, he accuses me of buddying him by overtly insulting him and saying his posts are bad, but that he should remind me if I had townread him for having a position which was "bjc should be lynched to repair the game state". Rogers did not question me on this, but rather went about his merry 30+ posts per day.

I townread Rogers from that, actually, because he was inferring that we'd get the most information by lynching someone he thought was scum and who had posted at least more than twice or three times. This I understood.

And of course, Rogers is allowed to state his scumspects, but his narrative implies that his scumspects are scummy if they suspect him.

[Mister Rogers]

I wouldn't call that progression - at least not a natural one.

I can only use (amazingly enough) Mastin's words: "He is looking for ways to manipulate people".

[Snork]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

I believe he's trying to say he likes the thought process. His agreement or disagreement isn't included, and I believe it would imply he is town-reading me. His stance on pisskop isn't really relevant here, imo. I could just be on an ego trip but that's what I got out of it.

MR - would you agree with my interpretation?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

I know that. I never said it had anything to do with my opinion of you. Where are you getting that? I said it would take me ISOing you because I haven't yet. Otherwise, I don't remember the specifics because I'm a pothead. I don't remember who. When I read a thread in one shot I jot down my impressions and the numbers of any Super Duper Important Posts^tm. I don't write novels. And, against better judgement, I like to jump right into the conversation as soon as I have an idea of what I'm looking at. So, I gave my off-the-cuff impressions from what I could remember, to explain my vote to you, since you asked. I wouldn't have remarked on it if it hadn't happened; I didn't just make it up. And as I said, it's on my list, and I

will

get back to you.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course", to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell. But then you answered something else, about how AP (and others) gave broad, sweeping judgements. That seems to be an entirely different thing.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scum tell?

p-edit: Stuff.

[talah]

12:45am, seeya.

Answer my question Syr.

[Mister Rogers]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

You do!? Oh man I bet I could name a particular post number and be right. I bet you saw that post too!

Does this mean PK can't be scum? Definitely it does not (and he IS crafty enough I bet to pull it off) but for now I support his mission.

[talah]

I wouldn't call that progression - at least not a natural one.

I can only use (amazingly enough) Mastin's words: "He is looking for ways to manipulate people".

Rogers states that he believes I am capable of this, having requested meta and making no reference to his conclusions on any meta.

He then uses mastin2's argument, to pad out his nonexistent case, which he still isn't pushing.

[talah]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

I believe he's trying to say he likes the thought process. His agreement or disagreement isn't included, and I believe it would imply he is town-reading me. His stance on pisskop isn't really relevant here, imo. I could just be on an ego trip but that's what I got out of it.

MR - would you agree with my interpretation?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

I know that. I never said it had anything to do with my opinion of you. Where are you getting that? I said it would take me ISOing you because I haven't yet. Otherwise, I don't remember the specifics because I'm a pothead. I don't remember who. When I read a thread in one shot I jot down my impressions and the numbers of any Super Duper Important Posts^tm. I don't write novels. And, against better judgement, I like to jump right into the conversation as soon as I have an idea of what I'm looking at. So, I gave my off-the-cuff impressions from what I could remember, to explain my vote to you, since you asked. I wouldn't have remarked on it if it hadn't happened; I didn't just make it up. And as I said, it's on my list, and I

will

get back to you.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

:neutral: You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course", to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell. But then you answered something else, about how AP (and others) gave broad, sweeping judgements. That seems to be an entirely different thing.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scum tell?

p-edit: Stuff.

Note to self - I'll get back to this, alright. Lots of words. Let me take a quick look and see if there's anything which is straightforward.

[Snork]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

You do!? Oh man I bet I could name a particular post number and be right. I bet you saw that post too!

Does this mean PK can't be scum? Definitely it does not (and he IS crafty enough I bet to pull it off) but for now I support his mission.

lol I guess I didn't get

entirely

what you were saying, but yeah - something about his responses last night rang a bell. Can't remember exactly what it was at this moment, but I'll hit it here shortly as I re-read it.

p-edit: Talah, really the only thing you need to respond to is the question at the end, because I didn't feel your response adequately satisfied my curiosity.

[talah]

I don't know if AP is "jumping at shadows" and I don't know what YOU mean by "jumping at shadows" if that didn't answer the question to your satisfaction. You're going to need to tell me just what those shadows are if you care for an accurate response.

/out

[talah]

PRE EDIT

[Mister Rogers]

I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

I believe he's trying to say he likes the thought process. His agreement or disagreement isn't included, and I believe it would imply he is town-reading me. His stance on pisskop isn't really relevant here, imo. I could just be on an ego trip but that's what I got out of it.

MR - would you agree with my interpretation?

Ok maybe we missed the boat. I was referring to your

adjusted

read of PK along with your excellent replace-in; both of these together as a whole.

On PK, I noted your initial view and I was actually watching for the reversal because I was expecting it. On your catchup, it was massively transparent & sincere. I do happen to agree with close to all your reads as well.

[talah]

Oh okay the question at the end was just what I asked.

Seriously "jumping at shadows" is so vague that you really ARE going to have to cite an example, because it could mean anything, and mainly I think it means you have an opinion or at least contention that AP was thinking in a certain way to be able to say that.

Anyway, game shit aside, fuck off you guys I gotta go to bed. Latez.

[Snork]

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

[Snork]

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

[talah]

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

No, you can clarify what you mean by paraphrasing it as "jumping at shadows".

Otherwise the answer is "possibly, depending on context"

[Snork]

*sigh*

Talah. I rephrased what you said. To me, jumping at shadows is the same thing as jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course. It's less words which appeals to me.

That's all

. There is literally no distinction, in my mind, between the two, because I am asking you about something

you said

:

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scum tell, Yes or No?

[Snork]

I don't understand why or how this has devolved into an argument about semantics, when I'm asking a simple question about your own statement and you aren't even answering it.

[Mister Rogers]

I don't "do" meta unless it's shoved in my face

+1

So you're saying you're being scummy. What do we do with people who are being scummy?

Well I suppose "we the undefined collective", in answer to a question which rams a broken pool cue into the orifice of the notion that specificity is possible to convey using the English language, attempt to clarify both the premise and the question first.

"So you're saying you're being scummy"

No, I asked Sakura why she didn't challenge my inconsistency. It turns out I'm not on her radar, and that she has Levi on the mind. I accept that response because it means she

does

have an agenda and it looks to be scumhunting. I'll keep a peripheral eye on her and see.

If you really want to know, I voted Sakura because - priorities and priorities. Nati and I vote-teaming is a useful strategy, I think, and I'm a bit disappointed Des didn't follow along (although I missed the fact he was already voting Majiffy in the first place, which may have been a bit offputting).

My understanding - or idea - with the voting pool is that there's an inherent 'unvote before lynch' agreement between all members. It's something I'm inviting my town-leaning reads to participate and interact in.

Spoiler:

You're not invited because your dropped-logic argument on pieguyn was oblivious of the context of pie getting involved in the conversation to begin with. It wasn't an assertion that (s)he made in the first place, to be accountable as scummy for dropping it.

"What do we do with people who are being scummy?"

We? Do you mean good mafia players? Good scumhunters? Yourself notionally as part of one of these groups? Yourself by extension onto the universe of how you think all Mafia players should act?
People? Me? Your grouping of all people who act scummily according to you? People who act in the same way as I am acting?
Scummy? The way I acted in this particular sequence? The assertion you are making?

I suppose one would attempt to scumhunt, assess or assert.
Determine the motivations of the non-specific players who "are being scummy".

---

Couple of follow-ups because I'm tired and have some work over the weekend.

Majiffy

- something about something about three posts. I can't remember what you said but you're irritating me using your weight on someone I've already townread probably when you thought it was still RVS. Get off pie.
Also I'm taking keen mental notes on your interactions with Deas.

dolittle

- another one. another naked townread. I don't know where you're getting this stuff from. Because you're not saying.

kayne

- where'd you go?

---

My next post will probably have "fame", "lurksack" and "hall" in the title.

Check out that awesome scum hunting post from Talah. Do you see anything like that in his ISO in this game? Its not cherry picked. Do his ISO in that game and you will see what I mean.

Sure he towns himself in that game but the active scum hunting like in that game? The active calling people out constantly? No. He definitely isn't lost in that game and its a Large Theme.

[talah]

*sigh*

Talah. I rephrased what you said. To me, jumping at shadows is the same thing as jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course. It's less words which appeals to me.

That's all

. There is literally no distinction, in my mind, between the two, because I am asking you about something

you said

:

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scum tell, Yes or No?

There is no yes or no answer to what you're asking.

And they most definitely are not the same thing, and you paraphrased it in that way because you have some underlying opinion on AP.

"Jumping at shadows"
"Jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course"

One implies a wrong opinion from AP (yours).
The other implies he's not doing town-wifom, nor being circumspect about possible town motivation (mine).

May I go to bed now, Mistress?

[Snork]

Why are you arguing about the phrasing? It's not about the phrasing.

I want you to answer if you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scumtell. My opinion of AP is irrelevant to your catalog of scum tells that you use to find scum.

[Snork]

Like... this would be pretty easy for town to answer you know... I mean.. at this point I just want to force you to commit to your method of scum hunting so I can call you out on it.

And your responses are increasingly frustrating.

[talah]

Lol@Rogers

Literally every player in the post he quoted is town.

If he's looking for scum-me, why not start with my scum game?

THE MIND FUCKING BOGGLES