NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Plessiez]

It's day 1. Deadline for the day is March 28th, 21:59 UTC. That's (expired on 2014-03-28 17:59:48).

Vote Count 1.16

talah [4 votes] (AngryPidgeon, Mister Rogers, Snork, Luca Blight)
pisskop [3 votes] (Zdenek, Yates, DeasVail)
4nxi3ty [2 votes] (ThAdmiral, Damon_Gant)
Damon_Gant [2 votes] (SnowStorm, mastin2)
Yates [2 votes] (projectmatt, pisskop)
mastin2 [2 votes] (BipolarChemist, PeregrineV)
Luca Blight [1 vote] (4nxi3ty)
Mister Rogers [1 vote] (Nero Cain)

3 players are not voting

: {aptil, RachMarie, talah}

With

20

players alive it takes

11

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

Activity

Nobody has recently been prodded.
BipolarChemist is V/LA until March 23rd.
mastin2 is V/LA until March 31st.

[SnowStorm]

Aptil. I think I'm leaning town on him. I have played with him before (on Westeros mafia), more times than I remembered, because most of the games he played in he ended up being replaced for low activity. The only game where he wasn't replaced was the only game where he was scum, where he looked more proactive and involved. Now while I don't think this is a strong point to town read him for, I don't get a scum feeling from his posts either. So I'd say he's a weak town read atm.

Correction, I think he also completed one game as town, because I remember suspecting him and pushing for his lynch, but his playstyle and tone were different from his scum game and from what I remember, much closer to his style and tone in this game. I'll try to check this later to be sure.

[Snork]

@MR re: pmatt:

In his first post, he points out something he doesn't like from Doc, from aptil, from PV, and then voted Bipolar. Town reads seem to be MR, Zd, DV, with tentative town reads on my slot, rach, and mastin. He says Talah's opening post is "pretty townie", which I actually agree with, as I was townreading him at first (though as you can tell, that quickly declined).

-- based on his entry post, I agree with his reads, especially at that point in the game where PV was a strong scum read for me, aptil looked like an active lurker, and Doc was a non-entity.

Then, after the vig gambit, he was questioned about his reaction and explained in a fairly transparent manner. Then voted aptil. A good vote.

Regarding his defense of my slot, I am probably pretty biased because I know my alignment, but when I first read it I didn't find it to be over the top or ingenuine at all. I felt his defense was natural. Also, he seemed to be arguing more about the principle, rather than the slot. Post 600 is a good example of what I mean.

Regarding the "bigger fish", I have to agree with him. If I was watching this as a different slot, there WERE better options. PV was a good one at the time. As was DG. Both had content and stances to criticize. The fact that bjc was the wagon of discussion is most certainly a scum distraction and we should be looking at who was trying to justify it, imo. Plus he was townreading the slot, which makes his defense make sense, and as he was questioned about it, makes it seem like that's all he was doing. What I see is that no one questioned him about his other town reads, or the scum reads from his first post.

Later, he also seems to have a scumread on Yates.

I'm wondering why you thought he didn't have any scum reads? I saw Yates, Doc, aptil and PV as his scum reads, and what seems to be a mild scum read on DG.

@Snow

: Saw your posts, reading them now.

[Snork]

Definitely content. Man you gotta put it on the line dewd and that means every time you do, you have a guaranteed enemy and better make it good because otherwise you will be suspected. Hard work. Much easier to vote a lurker that can't fight back.

And you have to LIE. And literally make things up. And make it all look real.

BLECH. Give me a town role.

I'd have to disagree with you. I believe tonality is much harder to fake, and what's funny, I believe this for the very reason you have stated (underlined). Just think about it for a bit. We'll come back to this.

The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.
Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil, DG, Rach.

Nulls are nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca, and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

I have a town read on AP too. Pisskop is still kinda null, some people seem to suspect him and I haven't looked much into him yet and while I don't dislike his posts it is not enough to give him a townread.

I have a weaker town read on DV too. As for 4nxiety, I have mixed feelings.

What are you thinking in regards to 4nx? Anything in particular come to mind that makes you think he might not be town?

I haven't devoted much thought to mastin, Yates, pmatt, Nero and PV, but I haven't seen anything in their posts that would make me consider lynching them today, so for now they're in the null pile.

Talah is a mess and is in a tier of his own.

Agreed! Are you thinking scumtier, towntier, or wtf-tier?

Rach is nullish but I'm not a big fan of her latest posts. So she's in between the null pile and scum leaning.

The issue I have with her posts is that she seems so out of touch with the game, and not in a natural way. She talks about so much outside influence and crap that doesn't matter to the game unnecessarily. I think it was either Yates or Nero who mentioned that there's not reason to explain why they haven't posted yet because it's nobody's business. That's true. If RL is in the way, just say that and declare a V/LA (or replace out if necessary). When you start talking about your personal issues, it comes across as appealing for pity, and I don't like it. Her posts seemed to be all about gaining a pass for her lack of contribution. Even if the RL issues were true, which they very well may be - that is not even the issue, using it as an excuse is awful and only serves to introduce other crap where it doesn't belong, and to cloud anyone's read on her slot.

That's my two cents on Rach.

Aptil. I think I'm leaning town on him. I have played with him before (on Westeros mafia), more times than I remembered, because most of the games he played in he ended up being replaced for low activity. The only game where he wasn't replaced was the only game where he was scum, where he looked more proactive and involved. Now while I don't think this is a strong point to town read him for, I don't get a scum feeling from his posts either. So I'd say he's a weak town read atm.

I don't have a response for this at the moment, other than to acknowledge your opinion on the slot. Aptil is a big question mark for me.

[Mister Rogers]

@MR re: pmatt:

In his first post, he points out something he doesn't like from Doc, from aptil, from PV, and then voted Bipolar. Town reads seem to be MR, Zd, DV, with tentative town reads on my slot, rach, and mastin. He says Talah's opening post is "pretty townie", which I actually agree with, as I was townreading him at first

Hey me too.

-- based on his entry post, I agree with his reads, especially at that point in the game where PV was a strong scum read for me, aptil looked like an active lurker, and Doc was a non-entity.

Great reads. Great tone. Have him as town.

Then, after the vig gambit, he was questioned about his reaction and explained in a fairly transparent manner. Then voted aptil. A good vote.

Ok, makes sense at least consistent but THEN he disappears for a LONG time. Ok so he comes back right and you think, OK -- more of the early game good stuff. More updated reads and some scum hunting activity. NOPE.

Regarding his defense of my slot, I am probably pretty biased because I know my alignment, but when I first read it I didn't find it to be over the top or ingenuine at all. I felt his defense was natural. Also, he seemed to be arguing more about the principle, rather than the slot. Post 600 is a good example of what I mean.

Ok we can disregard that as it at worst was only noise.

Regarding the "bigger fish", I have to agree with him. If I was watching this as a different slot, there WERE better options.

Ok, that's not the point though. Its not that there are better options its:

1) His point was about voting for lurkers and who was he voting? Aptil.
2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.
3) Voting Yates with no case. Asks me for my Yates reads before providing any Yates case and no such case has materialized.
4) He promised content and didn't deliver.
5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

I'm wondering why you thought he didn't have any scum reads? I saw Yates, Doc, aptil and PV as his scum reads, and what seems to be a mild scum read on DG.

His early reads don't count after being gone so long AND if they were genuine reads why didn't he push those people?

[Mister Rogers]

PEDIT: My #2a) accidentally edited out the part about how Taleh flips scum.

[Snork]

1) His point was about voting for lurkers and who was he voting? Aptil.

This is a good point.

2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.

Hm. The way I read this was that he was town-reading Talah and asking the other person to justify voting one of his town reads. This is something I'd do. I don't understand what you mean about multi-ball.

3) Voting Yates with no case. Asks me for my Yates reads before providing any Yates case and no such case has materialized.
4) He promised content and didn't deliver.

I don't think these are scum tells. Yet. I dunno. This could be a good point but I guess I don't feel this is the right time for this point to be valid.

5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

What do you mean?

[Snork]

The other thing I think, too, is that he seems to be like, kind of a lazy player. When he appears, he seems to only be able to focus on one or two things. I don't think he's mentally engaged with the game enough to be able to scumhunt AND defend himself at the same time. And that is in no way a comment on his skill, because I think most people have a hard time doing both. I really want to see what he comes up with when he's not under pressure.

[Snork]

Because that's easier to use to read him.

[Snork]

Just took a look at the activity to see when he was here last.

He's only been gone 24 hours.

(Also, I just wanna jab at AP cuz he said he'd have more posts than [someone I don't remember] and it looks like in the 12 hours I've been here, I nearly have more posts than he does. )

[Mister Rogers]

2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.

Hm. The way I read this was that he was town-reading Talah and asking the other person to justify voting one of his town reads.

ORLY? So he wasn't looking for case material but was trying to DEFEND Talah??

I don't understand what you mean about multi-ball.

If Matt was considering voting Talah it might be a point in his favor EXCEPT if there are two scum teams (multi-ball).

5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

What do you mean?

You know, scum in a game surrounded by townies; can't get a case out there. Feeling disjointed and unable to function.

[Mister Rogers]

Ya there was a big gap with Matt he was gone a long time. Check his ISO if you want there is a big gap.

[SnowStorm]

What are you thinking in regards to 4nx? Anything in particular come to mind that makes you think he might not be town?

I just can see him go either way. I like that he seems to have his own opinions and I like that he seems honest about them (like when he says he's not very confident), on the other hand, I don't really agree with said opinions and I could see his honesty coming from scum who's not confident in them because he knows they're fabricated.

Talah is a mess and is in a tier of his own.

Agreed! Are you thinking scumtier, towntier, or wtf-tier?

WTF-tier. The way I feel about talah is similar to the way I feel about 4nxi3ty, only with 100% more chaos. And while I wouldn't like to lynch 4nx today, I wouldn't really mind a talah lynch.

Rach is nullish but I'm not a big fan of her latest posts. So she's in between the null pile and scum leaning.

The issue I have with her posts is that she seems so out of touch with the game, and not in a natural way. She talks about so much outside influence and crap that doesn't matter to the game unnecessarily. I think it was either Yates or Nero who mentioned that there's not reason to explain why they haven't posted yet because it's nobody's business. That's true. If RL is in the way, just say that and declare a V/LA (or replace out if necessary). When you start talking about your personal issues, it comes across as appealing for pity, and I don't like it. Her posts seemed to be all about gaining a pass for her lack of contribution. Even if the RL issues were true, which they very well may be - that is not even the issue, using it as an excuse is awful and only serves to introduce other crap where it doesn't belong, and to cloud anyone's read on her slot.

That's my two cents on Rach.

I agree. What bothers me the most about her is the way she tries to become involved by talking about irrelevant things like southern accents, it comes out a little forced. I'd like to see her thoughts on more relevant stuff.

[Mister Rogers]

Talah Townread

I will note that this isn't a super-strong read, as I do not doubt that talah has the ability to fool me as scum. I also am not getting the 'I <3 talah so much' feels that I got from him last time we played together (I was scum though, so this may not be a valid influence on my read!). I would lean towards a townread right now because of a number of things I like.

-I think the analysis of my tendencies as scum was spot on.

Not using it against me

when it would have been possible to later on was also very logically sound and townish.

Note that this is a negative interaction in that Talah didn't do something. There is pretty strong motivation for him not to if he wanted you as an ally, don't you think?

[Snork]

2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.

Hm. The way I read this was that he was town-reading Talah and asking the other person to justify voting one of his town reads.

ORLY? So he wasn't looking for case material but was trying to DEFEND Talah??

I was under the impression he was townreading Talah. I just went back and read it, cuz I didn't quite understand your perspective there. He had mentioned having trouble finding a solid scumread. Zd was blatanly pushing Talah at the time and said he had a suggestion. In response, pmatt asked why he should.

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean. I don't think he was trying to defend Talah.

At this point, I'm just coming up with plausible reasoning, and

I'd much rather hear the real reasoning from projectmatt

.

5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

What do you mean?

You know, scum in a game surrounded by townies; can't get a case out there. Feeling disjointed and unable to function.

That makes me think more likely SK than factional scum if he's not-town.

[Mister Rogers]

Instead of querying me on whether I'd finished, or if my reads had changed, knowing they were from events that occurred over 20 pages ago, you flip your position without explanation and without any attempt at sorting why your read changed.

See, when I start to feel someone is more town or less town, I usually know why, and I ask them about that why so i can determine if it's something valid. You didn't bother doing that. You know, you didn't bother trying to determine if I was actually scum or not. You threw me in that "might lynch" list because... ? Because you didn't like my reads? From page 12?

Contrast this with his quite active interactions with others in Gundam; Town Talah inquires alot.

[Mister Rogers]

Lol@Rogers

Literally every player in the post he quoted is town.

If he's looking for scum-me, why not start with my scum game?

THE MIND FUCKING BOGGLES

THIS is totally condemning. He did not meta defend the case I made. Instead he points out he has all town players listed as scum suspects -- now that I think of it, that doesn't even make sense and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he has ZERO scum hunting here and is a vociferous monster in Gundam.

Anyway, if anyone is a fan of posts where scum are frustrated because townies make cases against them that are inaccurate, I found at least two in Talah's ISO. The whole issue about AP is one (jumping at things & not allowing for the proper town motivation).

[projectmatt]

Just a few things in regards to the exchange between Mr. Rodgers/Snork:

Snork, I'm pretty sure that you're town even more now, so good job on that.

In regards to the voting Aptil while talking about not voting lurkers being a "good" point, I once again feel the need to point out the context of the post. Never once in this game did I say that voting lurkers is bad, but I said that voting lurkers

only for the fact that they are lurking

is bad. Oh and by the way, I voted Aptil because:

Doc's RVS vote was bad and the vote by Deas was something i would have done too . But his posts afterwards read town to me .

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

Talah is bad all over . He has one decent post explaining his decisions otherwise he has been bad all over .

To me, this post looks completely devoid of what a town approaching this game in RVS would usually do. There's a notable difference between how town scumhunt and how mafia scumhunt - the town usually try to get their reads to form more organically by questioning and figuring things out. This post, however, is simply just saying "I didn't like this, I didn't like this" while pandering to some pretty poor reasoning on page

2

of the game. The trend of relatively accusatory but still meaningless posts continued with his next few ones.

He was lurking, and it looked like he was doing it out of fear due to being called out at his lackluster posting. However, my read on him decreased slightly when I saw post #595 which still has some pretty bad reads (particularly his one on Yates is clearly made up) but the content was enough for me to consider backing up and seeing where he took the game from here. I was actually hoping to not have to comment on my Aptil read again until I saw the content he generated naturally and not under pressure but I guess that won't happen.

My primary shift went to Yates mainly because of this post: that basically had a poor push on BJC and some quotes taken out of context with no real substance under the guise of content.

Now, I might back off again though mainly because pisskop silently jumping on my vote is really bad.

To answer another question - I think I asked for a reason to vote Talah because Zdenek seemed fairly confident on his read while I disagreed a fairly big amount at the time. Asking for his reasoning pretty much just assured that he wasn't BS'ing a read and it also helps me read him, in turn.

DeasVail, would you mind giving your perspective of DG and Talah?

I think they're both town.

Actually, I'm leaning this way as well.

I really don't like this post by Luca:

Talah, so much digging going on. He claims I am a shoe-in for scum (absolute rubbish, since when has inactivity always equated to scum) and then self-votes. His opening posts also looked every so slightly dodgy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Talah

after making 3 posts that essentially apologize and promise more content and substance, Luca just came in to join the Talah wagon and effectively make the game between Mr. Rodgers and Talah, which is horrible.

I want it dead.

Unvote

Vote: Luca Blight

Mr. Rodgers - I'm not from the UK, but my activity does fluctuate a lot.

[projectmatt]

The other thing I think, too, is that he seems to be like, kind of a lazy player. When he appears, he seems to only be able to focus on one or two things. I don't think he's mentally engaged with the game enough to be able to scumhunt AND defend himself at the same time. And that is in no way a comment on his skill, because I think most people have a hard time doing both. I really want to see what he comes up with when he's not under pressure.

Slightly guilty as charged. I actually do collect a lot of reads when going through but I tend to play a slightly lazier game.

[Mister Rogers]

Matt, if you are scum you are VERY crafty and thorough scum. Man you know how to hit on the bullet points I was looking for.

Matt downgraded to a Grey. Continued scum hunting required.

[projectmatt]

Well, let me ask, what do you think of Luca?

[Damon_Gant]

Well, looks like this wagon has more steam than 4nx now.

Unvote: 4nxi3ty
Vote: Luca Blight

Every post you make is disgusting Luca. Inactivity does not equal scum - you're right about that. Inactivity and scummy-as-hell posts? We're getting somewhere closer.

At this stage I am happy to vote for Luca, 4nx or aptil. I will not be voting for talah or pisskop without a better case being presented.

[Mister Rogers]

Time for an updated scum list:

Scum:

Talah

Look you think I'm a derp right? You think gosh what a bone head right? Just meta Talah and tell me you don't see how different the ISO's are. Please, he's obvscum.

Ok, ok, You think I'm an alright player and everything but gosh its obvious Talah is just confused, he's been attacked so much he just couldn't get his townie game out. Look if you buy that, I have some Arizona beach front property to sell you (cheap too!) but please ISO him in Gundam. Tell me that guy gets weighed down by attacks. Notice how empty him towning himself in THIS game looks compared to the other game; in Gundam it works because he has the scum hunting to back it up but here it falls flat.

Not a meta person? DID YOU META HIM THO? CLICK IT NOW AND THEN COME BACK. Check out his defense when he switched votes from Anx (yes you have to read through it, its over a few pages). Did you notice how he is so lackluster about who he is voting for? I mean he doesn't even mention whether they are scum or not. And why isn't Anx in his scum list when he was just voting him?? Is that genuine scum hunting?? Dear goodness do you see his "check out viable wagons for consensus"? I mean is that a scum mindset or what?? Don't you hate lynching town on D1? Dang I do. I guess Talah doesn't. He just wants consensus *cough* so he can get back to his scum Q/T *cough*. Excusing himself from not scum hunting because what like 3 different people attacked him and only 2 are on his wagon? Ya right; did I tell you about that Arizona beach front property? Ok that's pretty much it. The argument devolves from there into attacks and such. Vote scum. Vote high tier scum. Vote Talah today! *\:D/*

[Zdenek]

@Matt: Yes you are wrong on your assertion as to why I am voting BJC. It is because he is deliberately lurking (as opposed to Aptil who is simply lurking) and because of the bizarre attention that he got for his simple "I'm scum" post.

I think moar people should be voting him.

1. How do you make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking? Those two seem like they are exactly the same thing. Bjc is just honest about his own apathy.

2. The second reason you listed is, to me, a very good reason why you should not be voting him and instead be focusing on the people who bizarrely attacked him.

So he shouldn't be lynched for failing to scumhunt?

Did you read my post where I explained why I townread him or did you just make that comment in an attempt to misrep it?

Yes, this push by PV is bad.
I also felt that way about his push on me for my early game posting.

I have been terribly busy recently which is the reason for my lack of posting, I have a day off tomorrow so will try and catch up then. It wouldn't feel right to post reads without having given the thread my full attention.

I think is coming from scum. He's basically padding his post by telling us that he's not going to make up reads.

Idk how often those are pulled, but how often do scum use that as a gambit?

I do it fairly regularly.

It sort of worries me that someone knows this about me, told Bipolar to aggravate me and coached him on how to react. However, if I was a pretty new player like Bipolar and I was involved in that sort of scheme, I'd probably have been excited and wouldn't have followed it up with lurking.

Are you familiar with the Beetlejuice tell?

How much stock do you put in it?

I'm not voting bjc purely for lurking

Why were you voting bjc?

I have scum read each of these 3 independently of their voting for Luca and it just so happens it is a pretty major coincidence that they all synched up together on the same target.

Why do you think that the votes for Luca are scummy?

vote: Yates

oh boi.

This feels legit to me.

This is scum cluttering things up.

Have you seen this happen?

page 30.

[Mister Rogers]

Well, let me ask, what do you think of Luca?

Luca is scummy as heck. Obvscum. But he is also low hanging fruit. He's great bus material. He's a bad analysis wagon (imo -- am I wrong?); we'd probably be doing scum a favor by lynching him (I know sounds bizarre but if you don't get my point, meh).

Here's the other thing: On the off chance that Luca is town (I don't believe it for a second BUT he does seem to being scummy in a way, deliberately) that will DEFINITELY be a bad wagon to analyze because everybody and his brother wants to vote Luca -- and you know what? Something is wrong with that. But hey, don't get me wrong the dewd is obvscum.

I would much prefer Talah. Nothing wrong with that candidate and definitely obvscum. The wagon analysis will be solid because outwardly he hasn't done anything "obviously" wrong like Luca.

So there's my two cents. Hey you want some Arizona beach front property cheap?