Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[Thor665]

So let me get this straight. I criticized you for going almost exclusively after bad players and you claimed that you did nothing of the sort and I was misrepping you. Turns out that you were scumreading Yiley for being a newb (and don't you go into the semantics of "newb vs. bad", as it's functionally the same thing for the purpose of this discussion). Did you also go after zakk for this same reason? I'm formulating it as a question because god forbid I "twist your words" again.

I openly discussed the question, the answer, and why it made me suspect Yiley. If that equates to "bad player" in your head, that's fine, as long as you understand my logic and that it doesn't have anything to do with him being bad at the game.

Your secondary reason for suspecting him is "actively avoiding giving thoughts on anything". We've already established that he was replaced for

not playing the game

, straight from the mod's mouth, and I assert that the former was a symptom of the latter. I further asserted that not playing the game is not indicative of a scum alignment, and you once again accused me of twisting your words because you claim you didn't either.

There is a difference between not giving opinions and being replaced out. I agree he did both. I am calling him scummy for only one of those things.

I've asked you the straight question of why you're scumreading me and you gave me the answer "because Yiley".

Which was and is the truth. If you didn't understand my Yiley case you should have asked for it.

What is your current read on Smargaret? What is your case for her being town? What is your case for her being scum? What are your thoughts on my case against her? Am I covering everything? Am I going to have to do this every time I want to get a meaningful response out of you?

My case on her would be null, probably with a slight scum lean.
I have no case for her being town.
My case for her being scum would be that she doesn't look very passionate, and I believe that is unlike her town games.
I find your case on her to be hinged on the idea that she would defend a useless buddy. I'm usually of an opinion that the most strident scum defenders tend to be town, not scum, so I find your case on the weak side.
Depends on your opinion of what 'everything' is. Clearly you are not, but hopefully you are covering 'everything' that you wish me to answer, in which case maybe you are.
Again, depends on your definition, this time of 'meaningful' but I don't think it would hurt. i don't even understand the shock - oh noes!1!! you need to type out 'what do you think about 'X' when you want to know what I think about 'X', how brutally difficult!

Or, in my opinion, how shockingly normal and part of the game.

You've ducked the apathy thing a few times now. I'm going to just choose to chalk that up as 'your opinion' and decide you don't have a real founding for the comment, and at that stage I'm not sure why you brought it up as a defense of your slot. Apathy affects players regardless of their alignment. I find this defense pretty iffy on your part.

[CrashTextDummie]

I openly discussed the question, the answer, and why it made me suspect Yiley. If that equates to "bad player" in your head, that's fine, as long as you understand my logic and that it doesn't have anything to do with him being bad at the game.

We already have flipped scum in Zekrom who could be described as newb/bad/weak enough to ask the mod such a question. The fact that it was his flip that apparently motivated the question also points toward him being the culprit. What makes you think the question came from another newb/bad/weak player within the scumteam?

There is a difference between not giving opinions and being replaced out. I agree he did both. I am calling him scummy for only one of those things.

Why do you think him not giving opinions is indicative of him being scum as opposed to him straight up not playing the game, if you agree that he was, in fact, straight up not playing the game and you don't find that alignment indicative?

Which was and is the truth. If you didn't understand my Yiley case you should have asked for it.

"Why do you have a scumread on X" is asking for a case. If you insist on having your teeth pulled, don't complain to the dentist that it hurts.

You've ducked the apathy thing a few times now. I'm going to just choose to chalk that up as 'your opinion' and decide you don't have a real founding for the comment, and at that stage I'm not sure why you brought it up as a defense of your slot. Apathy affects players regardless of their alignment. I find this defense pretty iffy on your part.

I've already made it clear that I'm not going to bother substantiating the statement. So yes, you may chalk it up as "my opinion". The point of bringing it up as defense was that apathy was the sole characteristic of his play. The mod-given reason for his replacement is proof that he wasn't active lurking or doing anything else that could be described as a scum tactic. It turns out we don't fundamentally disagree (your stance is that it's not alignment telling, my stance is that it's more town-telling if at all). All that remains is for you to realize that your read was bad.

[CrashTextDummie]

I have no case for her being town.

The fact that Pere and I are pushing her does not make you think she is town?

[jasonT1981]

Day 3 Vote Count 8

smargaret 4 - T S O,PeregrineV,CrashTextDummie,BROseidon,
PeregrineV 2 - Thor665,smargaret
Broseiden 1 - Bulbazak,

Not Voting

AntiHero
penguin_alien

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-02 16:40:08)

till Day 3 Deadline

[Thor665]

We already have flipped scum in Zekrom who could be described as newb/bad/weak enough to ask the mod such a question. The fact that it was his flip that apparently motivated the question also points toward him being the culprit. What makes you think the question came from another newb/bad/weak player within the scumteam?

I see little value in answering a dead player in topic.

Why do you think him not giving opinions is indicative of him being scum as opposed to him straight up not playing the game, if you agree that he was, in fact, straight up not playing the game and you don't find that alignment indicative?

When he was playing the game he was not giving opinions. He later transformed that into not playing the game, but that doesn't change the earlier state.

"Why do you have a scumread on X" is asking for a case. If you insist on having your teeth pulled, don't complain to the dentist that it hurts.

I wasn't complaining, I was only noting that your complaint is silly.

I've already made it clear that I'm not going to bother substantiating the statement. So yes, you may chalk it up as "my opinion". The point of bringing it up as defense was that apathy was the sole characteristic of his play.

You mean to tell me that you think the only thing that can be learned from Yiley's iso is that he wasn't playing the game (and you wish to argue that as a potential town tell, if anything).

[Thor665]

I have no case for her being town.

The fact that Pere and I are pushing her does not make you think she is town?

We have already established that I do not endorse a belief that the two of you are, by definition, a scum team. If I thought that, then I would think that she was town, yes.
Not thinking that, I am left with two suspects are pushing on a player I consider in the null world.
A player who, incidentally, i have not supported lynching.
How very strange of me.

Does that deal with the awkward hypocrisy angle you were snuffling about with here?

[CrashTextDummie]

I see little value in answering a dead player in topic.

Do you see much value in answering this particular question to a living player in topic?

When he was playing the game he was not giving opinions. He later transformed that into not playing the game, but that doesn't change the earlier state.

At what point did this transformation take place?

You mean to tell me that you think the only thing that can be learned from Yiley's iso is that he wasn't playing the game (and you wish to argue that as a potential town tell, if anything).

No, I mean to tell you that scumreading him based on his ISO is silly.

We have already established that I do not endorse a belief that the two of you are, by definition, a scum team. If I thought that, then I would think that she was town, yes.
Not thinking that, I am left with two suspects are pushing on a player I consider in the null world.
A player who, incidentally, i have not supported lynching.
How very strange of me.

Does that deal with the awkward hypocrisy angle you were snuffling about with here?

Not what I was getting at. We've already established that you don't think Pere is bussing Smargaret (you said you would townread Pere if Smargaret were to flip scum). It follows that you don't think they are a scum team and that Pere-scum and Smargaret-scum are mutually exclusive possibilities for you. Given your conviction of Pere-scum, it would stand to reason that this would inform your Smargaret read to some extent.

But apparently it does not.

Did I get any of that wrong?

[Thor665]

I see little value in answering a dead player in topic.

Do you see much value in answering this particular question to a living player in topic?

Yes. In fact I would suggest that is the best way to answer any question a living player asks about basic game mechanics.

At what point did this transformation take place?

Interesting question, obviously any sort of translation would be gradual. I would say Post 588 is the last one he seemed to be trying to at least present giving a hang about the game in. So everything prior to that i think is pretty readable.

No, I mean to tell you that scumreading him based on his ISO is silly.

Not what I was getting at. We've already established that you don't think Pere is bussing Smargaret (you said you would townread Pere if Smargaret were to flip scum). It follows that you don't think they are a scum team and that Pere-scum and Smargaret-scum are mutually exclusive possibilities for you. Given your conviction of Pere-scum, it would stand to reason that this would inform your Smargaret read to some extent.

But apparently it does not.

Did I get any of that wrong?

I said a Smarg scum flip would clear Pere for me - does that preclude me having a scum read on him now? No, it doesn't. Same deal, you asked for a current read on Smarg not a read on Smarg post a Pere flip...and then you acted like they were the same thing somehow.

That's what you're doing wrong.
Make sense?

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes. In fact I would suggest that is the best way to answer any question a living player asks about basic game mechanics.

I disagree.

Interesting question, obviously any sort of translation would be gradual. I would say Post 588 is the last one he seemed to be trying to at least present giving a hang about the game in. So everything prior to that i think is pretty readable.

Why not #329? Or #221?
Did you just go looking at his ISO after I asked that question and pick the post that most matched your claim of a transformation? Cause it doesn't really.

I said a Smarg scum flip would clear Pere for me - does that preclude me having a scum read on him now? No, it doesn't. Same deal, you asked for a current read on Smarg not a read on Smarg post a Pere flip...and then you acted like they were the same thing somehow.

I didn't "act" like anything. I digested and interpreted what you said and gave it back to you for comment.

Is saying "a Smarg scum flip would clear Pere" not the same as saying "I don't think Smarg and Pere are scum together"?
Does your

current

Pere read not influence your

current

Smargaret read at all?

[CrashTextDummie]

Or to word it differently:
A Smarg scum flip would clear Pere. But a Pere scum flip would not clear Smarg. Is that what you're saying?

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm not very confident in my Thor town read anymore.

[CrashTextDummie]

The bothersome thing about this is that scum-Thor would make it much more likely that Smarg is town.

Feh.

unvote

[smargaret]

CTD, I guess scum might own their mistakes like that, and I agree that smargaret wasn't going to avoid being linked with the cxinlee lynch regardless. But I don't remember scum-smargaret being that brazen. I'll reread the scum game I have with her to see if reviewing it shakes up my take on her, since BRO isn't commenting.

Wasn't she town in Narnia, or do you have another game with her?

Yeah, I went back and checked, and she was town miller. Who didn't claim until mass claim or something and unsurprisingly got lynched. She was also town in Mini 1527 and got vigged lateish in the game.

At this point I'm getting better vibes from smargaret's engagement with the game than Antihero's.

While I wouldn't argue that Antihero's engagement with the game is anything to write home about, I seriously struggle to see where you're getting any sort of good vibes from Smargaret's.

Are you actually town reading Smargaret? It feels like you're actively avoiding taking an actual stance on her.

As I think about it, I don't have an active town read on her. But I'm leery of the wagon for how it seems to have persisted and having refreshed my (apparently crap) memory on her town games, this play really isn't out of line with what got her lynched/eliminated elsewhere as town.

What I don't like is her coming back to PV over and over, plus there's a sense of tunneling I don't recall from her town games. I can't muster up anything more enthusiastic as a defense, so I guess my stance is that it's not a bad wagon but I think we're more likely to find scum in Antihero.

Toss in town reads on you, Bulbazak, and TSO, plus town leans on Thor and BRO, and smargaret becomes a decent lynch.

I totally got dinged for tunnelling Rachmarie in Narnia. I'm actually consciously trying to move away from tunnelling; guess it isn't working.

[smargaret]

And I will actually post significant content later tonight, but I have daylight-dependent things to do today.

[CrashTextDummie]

Or to word it differently:
A Smarg scum flip would clear Pere. But a Pere scum flip would not clear Smarg. Is that what you're saying?

I take back this question, I can see that that's not what you're saying.

[T S O]

CTD and Thor, I get that you're going to ridicule me for asking this, but can you tone down the damn wall arguments? It's making this game incredibly hard to read.

For those scumreading CTD, I too am townreading him, and I'd like to see just why you think he's scum. Because I don't at all.

[CrashTextDummie]

I apologize for the solid page and a half of ThorTD. The cracks started to appear in my town read of him and I got excited.

His Yiley argument feels cooked up to me and his Smargaret read is not consistent with his Pere read. Talk to me about that please, TSO.

[Thor665]

I disagree.

Okay...so is this going somewhere? Like, you wouldn't expect the mod to do it at all, or only do it for dead players, or what?

Why not #329? Or #221?
Did you just go looking at his ISO after I asked that question and pick the post that most matched your claim of a transformation? Cause it doesn't really.

I dunno, should they be chosen.
Yes, that's exactly what I did, because I'd never bothered to try to put a post number on it, though it clearly happened. Are you trying to argue that he was checked out from ISO #0? Because that isn't true, which means at some point he did check out, and at that point all we can do is debate when, but that debate, by definition, supports my stance.

Is saying "a Smarg scum flip would clear Pere" not the same as saying "I don't think Smarg and Pere are scum together"?
Does your

current

Pere read not influence your

current

Smargaret read at all?

Or to word it differently:
A Smarg scum flip would clear Pere. But a Pere scum flip would not clear Smarg. Is that what you're saying?

I take back this question, I can see that that's not what you're saying.

his Smargaret read is not consistent with his Pere read.

Okay...so, I see confusion, more confuison, and then revelation...and then, what appears to be a return to confusion.
I'm not sure why it's even happening.
Let's look at what I've said.

1. I don't really see Smarg + Pere as a team.
2. If Smarg flipped scum I would suspect Pere to be town.
3. I have a scum read on Pere and a nullish read on Smarg

I think you are making a presumption of this;

4. I should have a scum read on Pere and consequently a town read on Smarg

Which makes no sense, and I do not, and it's silly to suggest. What the reality is would be this;

5. If Pere flipped scum I would have a town read on Smarg.

Where do you see me getting your logic wrong?
And if I don't...is there any logic happening here, because I'm missing it.

CTD and Thor, I get that you're going to ridicule me for asking this, but can you tone down the damn wall arguments? It's making this game incredibly hard to read.

They're useful to me. If you loathe them, skip them.

For those scumreading CTD, I too am townreading him, and I'd like to see just why you think he's scum. Because I don't at all.

How about you discuss his take on my messed up Pere/Smarg reads and my response to it - I just summarized my take above and he asked for your take too. I find sketchy logic scummy. I also found Yiley scummy. I also find his logic of trying to clear himself from Yiley scummy.

[Bulbazak]

You didn't mention her at all on D1.

Huh. I guess I didn't, but I was townreading her.

And you've been directly asked twice to explain your read on her, and "town vibes" didn't come up. Instead, you gave reasons that really weren't all that related to her own play, so no, it wasn't implied that you got a town vibe off of her. Could you expand on those, please?

So in all those instances when I was essentially going "I understand the case against her, but I'm still leaning town for some reason.", you couldn't put 2 and 2 together and figure out that I was getting town vibes from her play, that it was gut keeping her in the null/town section of my reads? Come on, CTD, you're not this dense. I've been trying my best to explain a null/town read, which is an imperfect townread to begin with btw, and I keep feeling like I'm grasping, because the best answer really is "town vibes" or "gut". Heck, I think it was apparent from the beginning that this was mostly gut that I was still trying to find some justification for, and normally when that becomes apparent, especially for a null/town or leaning town read, the typical response is not to push to understand gut. This isn't a hard townread, btw, which means I haven't fully sorted it out myself. But you keep pushing and pushing to find explanations for why I'm gut reading her, when you know that I can't possibly provide them. I'm leaning town because a voice in the back of my head is telling me she's town, and I haven't figured out why yet. But I think the main purpose of this little conversation was for you to try to dig up anything you could to try to push a wagon on me, isn't it?

For those scumreading CTD, I too am townreading him, and I'd like to see just why you think he's scum. Because I don't at all.

I asked first. Tell me why he's town.

Unvote

Vote CrashTextDummy

You're welcome to join me, Thor.

[Thor665]

I'm game, unvoting Smarg because of theory scum Thor clearing her while not voting me is pretty ecchy.

Unvote: Pere
Vote: CrashTextDummies

[Thor665]

Oddly I am more correct to the username and Bulba is more correct to grammar and neither of us got the name right regardless.

[smargaret]

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town.

If one of the thor/porkens/bulbazak mess or zekrom is scum, then the other one isn't - I don't see scum trying to distract from distancing like that. Actually, if thor/porkens/bulbazak are town,then zek probably is too because scum want mislynches, and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting.

That said, wtf? RVS is not inherently protown.

VOTE: cxin. Have opinions. Express them.

PV - the explanation of my zek town read.

I'm not really happy that I keep saying this, and you keep missing it. It reinforces my scumread on you. As far as part 2, I was trying to get any read on the rest of the playerlist. It was less a super strong town read on Zek and more a lack of any read on anyone else.

CTD, your main argument, other than my Zek read, which yeah, fair, is that I'm objecting to PV saying I'm scum for misreading Zek. I'm not. I'm objecting to PV misrepping me. This is something like the third or fourth time I've had to explain where the Zek townread came from. The fact that PV keeps pushing that, without addressing my answer? That's scummy.

i'm with whoever was saying that they're scumreading CTD. mostly gut from interactions with thor. also, he failed to give an opinion on my slot even though someone directly asked him for one; i think he left me at "mixed bag". convenient since i'm one of the borderline "might be able to lynch this" cases.

i approve of the marge lynch

So do you think CTD is bussing me?

Bulba, didn't you get that townreading someone isn't an excuse to not question them?

CTD not voting is scummy. /sheep

Thor - yeah, I'm feeling pretty apathetic about this game. I missed a week, and wasn't really at my best for a week on either side of it - heck, I'm still not back to normal. I'm having a hard time getting back into the game, and players like cxin and Yiley and to a lesser extent TSO are making it difficult. Add in my reads being wildly wrong, and yeah, I'm apathetic.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, didn't you get that townreading someone isn't an excuse to not question them?

Who am I not questioning?

[Thor665]

Thor - yeah, I'm feeling pretty apathetic about this game. I missed a week, and wasn't really at my best for a week on either side of it - heck, I'm still not back to normal. I'm having a hard time getting back into the game, and players like cxin and Yiley and to a lesser extent TSO are making it difficult. Add in my reads being wildly wrong, and yeah, I'm apathetic.

I know you are, admitting it doesn't change much for my universe. Fixing it would be nice though.

[CrashTextDummie]

Okay...so is this going somewhere? Like, you wouldn't expect the mod to do it at all, or only do it for dead players, or what?

Yes, I wouldn't expect the mod to do it at all because it affects gamestate. I could see him do it thinking it wouldn't affect gamestate if the player in question was dead.

Yes, that's exactly what I did, because I'd never bothered to try to put a post number on it, though it clearly happened. Are you trying to argue that he was checked out from ISO #0? Because that isn't true, which means at some point he did check out, and at that point all we can do is debate when, but that debate, by definition, supports my stance.

Yes, I am arguing that he was checked out from ISO #0:
ISO #0: "I Didn't know the game started"
ISO #2: "I'm Not gonna bother doing anything until 300 posts"
ISO #9: "I missed the beginning, so now I'm behind"
ISO #11: "I have done nothing"
ISO #12: "Haven't done anything, will change"
ISO #14: "I will start playing"
#796: Force replaced for not playing

That's a clear picture of a player not playing the game from top to bottom.

Your argument is "a transformation totally took place, but I can't point out exactly where (it was gradual, you see) because I didn't actually make the claim of a transformation happening based on evidence in his ISO but rather tried looking for evidence in his ISO (and failing) after I had made the claim and was called out for it". I'm gonna chalk all of that up to you pulled it out of your ass.

I think you are making a presumption of this;

4. I should have a scum read on Pere and consequently a town read on Smarg

Which makes no sense, and I do not, and it's silly to suggest. What the reality is would be this;

Now I at least have something to meta you by. If I find town games where you express a town read on one player because you're scum reading another, I'm nailing your ass to the wall.