The Fall of Gondolin Mafia: Game Over (The Tale of Gondolin)


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Post Post #2425 (ISO) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:09 pm

Post by SpyreX »

In post 2404, Espeonage wrote:Took me a long time to actually get in to this game.

I still don't get why Spy did what he did because it was against wincon. And sirdan, even when I realised you were town, you still make me want to pull all my hair out.
Ohh and just in case there's any confusion especially after reading the scum QT:

No regrets. If I had a time machine I'd go back and tell D1 SpyreX to keep on track even though you weren't scum.

I figured that's legit since "a long time" must be "a different universe" because that sure wasn't this game.
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I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

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Post Post #2426 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:32 am

Post by Elscouta »

Yay! Spend my time trying to lynch townies while looking super townish. Can i get scum mvp? :P

More seriously, good job other townies.
I'm town. Please lynch someone else.
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Post Post #2427 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:57 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 2415, Desperado wrote:
In post 2403, Shadoweh wrote:I would also like to know why Desperado forgot to send in any actions on Night 5. :V
I'd love to pretend it was intentional, but I worked all weekend and just never did it.

Sorry I petered out at the end :(
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Post Post #2428 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:58 am

Post by Desperado »

I wasn't talking to you?
;)
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Post Post #2429 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:49 pm

Post by Majiffy »

yey i winz
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Post Post #2430 (ISO) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:12 pm

Post by shos »

You do and you played good! Wouldnt have lynched shadow otherwise
In post 836, Lucky2u said:

Rule # 5h05: players should not attempt to use or manipulate the mod for any purpose.
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Post Post #2431 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:16 am

Post by ActionDan »

I also win at life
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #2432 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:15 am

Post by sirdanilot »

GG guys

I have some questions:

- Why was I night killed?

- Why did Tierce suck all joy and fun out of this game by saying that I am a horrible player while she clearly lost and I won in the end?
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Post Post #2433 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:48 am

Post by Plum »

sirdan, I beg of you, please try to let this rest and not bring this up here again.
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Post Post #2434 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:09 am

Post by Tierce »

Oh,
dahling
.


Good job, Town. You could have done better if some people didn't insist on being big distractions, but the power roles did good work. SpyreX, CES, Elscouta--would very much play with again.

ABR, somehow I was "obvscum" who was only lynched due to a guilty on me (and almost got the real PR lynched), while you are the one fakeclaiming pointlessly. Do check your own play before coming in with confirmation bias at the end of the game, please.


Thanks for the game, Plum. <3 The flavor was everything I wanted it to be and CES getting the sociopathic little hellion is all too fitting*~
This game is yet another example of "the role the game is modeled after is not going to survive until Day 2".


___
*
In post 940, Plum wrote:
and
[Maeglin's]
body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below.
This implies that someone stood there and
counted
.

It was probably Eärendil.
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Post Post #2435 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:14 am

Post by Desperado »

In post 2432, sirdanilot wrote:GG guys

I have some questions:

- Why was I night killed?

- Why did Tierce suck all joy and fun out of this game by saying that I am a horrible player while she clearly lost and I won in the end?
ohmyfuckinggod SHUT UP
;)
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Post Post #2436 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:38 am

Post by shos »

lol guys don't be all rude and stuff.

game is over, be happy/sad etc :P
In post 836, Lucky2u said:

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Post Post #2437 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:56 am

Post by ActionDan »

Oh yeah ageors role was OP. For the future
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #2438 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:31 am

Post by Shadoweh »

Tierce, you brought joy and fun to me watching you flail this game <3
In post 2430, shos wrote:You do and you played good! Wouldnt have lynched shadow otherwise
:< I hate my doomsday prophecies being right. Almost as much as never getting to post The Fall of Gondilascum.
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Post Post #2439 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:33 am

Post by ActionDan »

When I realized what the flavor was I couldn't help feeling terrible trying to kill sensible people
I'll give you a moment to let that sink in
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Post Post #2440 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:59 am

Post by Tierce »

In post 2439, ActionDan wrote:When I realized what the flavor was I couldn't help feeling terrible trying to kill sensible people
"Uhm, guys, the princess and the badass guy who makes willow-whistles for the kid are dead, perhaps we should just--"
"Nope don't deny us the right to murder our own comrades before the dragons get here."
"But guys there's a safe pa--" *ker-shiv* "X_X ...hai Mandos."
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Post Post #2441 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:10 am

Post by PeregrineV »

In post 2434, Tierce wrote:Oh,
dahling
.


Good job, Town. You could have done better if some people didn't insist on being big distractions, but the power roles did good work. SpyreX, CES, Elscouta--would very much play with again.

ABR, somehow I was "obvscum" who was only lynched due to a guilty on me (and almost got the real PR lynched), while you are the one fakeclaiming pointlessly. Do check your own play before coming in with confirmation bias at the end of the game, please.


Thanks for the game, Plum. <3 The flavor was everything I wanted it to be and CES getting the sociopathic little hellion is all too fitting*~
This game is yet another example of "the role the game is modeled after is not going to survive until Day 2".


___
*
In post 940, Plum wrote:
and
[Maeglin's]
body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below.
This implies that someone stood there and
counted
.

It was probably Eärendil.
We only mislynched Aegor and Espeonage, the rest we were spot on. Not sure how we could have done much better as a town.
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Post Post #2442 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:39 pm

Post by Tierce »

In post 2441, PeregrineV wrote:We only mislynched Aegor and Espeonage, the rest we were spot on. Not sure how we could have done much better as a town.
By not no-lynching for no reason, and by not letting Espeonage be lynched over me without at least trying to figure out if he made sense as my partner (he didn't). By not claiming VT early Day 1, by not fakeclaiming, and by not pointlessly trying to gambit with stuff scum already have all the information about. By not insisting that your 6-year-old meta on someone is absolutely correct and up to date.
It all adds to the noise and does not help find scum.

Lynching 4 scum in seven Days is a good job, and I am of the "scum should be able to play a perfect game and still lose due to a good Town/power roles" school, but the Town's game was not "spot-on". You won this game and deserved to do so, with three scum members caught by PRs and the fourth becoming an apathetic flurker, but "only two mislynches" does not mean Town couldn't play better; there's more to good Town Dayplay than lynching.
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Post Post #2443 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:09 pm

Post by Plum »

So: commentary and such: Well played to the Town. Regarding the Mafia, I think I can pinpoint a couple of strategic missteps that really hurt in the long run despite a lot of good individual dayplay.

Very few players knew or cared much about the source flavor - which was fine, although it did make a lot of my flavor-related subversion irrelevant to how the game played out. Morgoth, the Balrogs, Dragons, &c. were the baddies alongside the treacherous Maeglin (and the cowardly Salgant!) in the source flavor, where Idril and all the Elves were the good guys. AI first decided that Maeglin would be a Town Godfather in the vein of one used in an old Marathon Day game of PokerFace's, which I'd admired since I saw it first (when putting things together, I discovered that I said as much in at least one old MD thread - which I guess was good for game integrity that no one found) and that Idril would be scum, and that the flavor motive of the scumteam would be Idril's Secret Way. From there, I made a list of all the Elves from Gondolin (plus Tuor, of course), decided the teams' proportions and powers, and randomized the characters' alignments, then randomized which characters on each team got powers. I gave only Idril a safeclaim (Glorfindel - I actually think I didn't randomize the choice). I suppose, given that in the non-
Silmarillion
version of the story Tuor was explicitly in on the Secret Way stuff that if he'd been put on the Mafia I'd be tempted to give him a safeclaim, but it never came to pass.

Setup design ethos: The Godfather's ability to make players take actions without their knowledge was why I had to answer yes to the bastard game question when Queuing up the game. The Trackers were indeed intended to have the potential to discover these actions and get some messy accusations rolling. During review, a strange Seraph Knight-like bodyguard roll variation was replaced by the Voyeur, which I can only think of as a good thing. The Mafia were given multiple different tools to deal with Town power. The Godfather was not Roleblockable - but his chosen killers were, and blocking one of them would give a pseudo-guilty on them. The Shieldrender was a little like the Strongman people ended up assuming it was - it certainly could make kills go through Doctor protection. It was initially concewived as an inverted Jailkeeper - it puts of Rolestop mechanic on the target, but makes the target vulnerable to kill actions. In one version of the setup, Idril was Bulletproof, and using the Shieldrender on her would make her vulnerable to kills. It in this setup was more useful as an Ascetic-maker, able to keep Trackers off the killer and keep the Weak Doctor's protective action from going through (potential to give false pseudo-innocent results on a member of the Mafia). And there was next to nothing in terms of protective roles.

One thing I knew about the setup at the outset was that the scumteam started out with a lot of power to mitigate threats. They also started out in a position where losing a teammate early, especially one who had power, could hamstring the effort significantly. I anticipated from Day 1 that the bussing was counterproductive, which turned out to be the case even though they managed to mislynch the strongest Town PR Day 1. The exceptionally ballsy play and good reads from Town powerroles, combined with a bit of luck with ABR's fakeclaim that could easily have gone the other way both helped the Town a lot, obviously. That said, despite some pretty mediocre dayplay decisions by the Town over the course of the first two Days, I thought that scum were not in as good a position as they perhaps thought due to some of the expected fallout from Day 1 and the fact that they pushed JS to claim so early.

And yes, Maeglin's role was supposed to be a little overpowered. But consider that the one protective role in the game could not protect him without dying (and potentially implicating him). I worded Maeglin's Miller status and the Weak Doctor conditional very carefully. Consider also the general lack of protective roles at all.

I'm currently wondering if the setup was actually Town-favored or not. I certainly was not expecting the far-and-away strongest Townrole to be lynched Day 1 after claiming, despite the handicaps of the role. I was also not expecting the Weak Doctor to play so aggressively. To complete this trifecta, I never expected a Voyeur to be so actively useful prior to massclaim(!). Perhaps lower power all around might have been better, but keeping Maeglin's role, less power might have made him more powerful, not less . . .

As for the flavor . . . I didn't realize at first that it would develop to be so peculiarly lulzy (I wasn't even sue at first that I'd be writing acanonical flavor, but that went off pretty well). But there you are.

Good game to all.
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Post Post #2444 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:56 pm

Post by Shadoweh »

The power roles definitely carried the town. If you look at what was happening via dayplay after Day 1 town was comically atrocious. Almost as atrocious as 'Hmm do you think THEY'RE GOING TO QUICKLYNCH YOU means anything? No probably not let's ignore him.' And our JK and kill being trolled by ABR and TIP. And our rolecop not mentioning there was another tracker. I can't say we were exactly making the best decisions either!

I liked the flavor. The Silmarillion is a really dry book so props for making it readable as the tale of Everything Eärendil Touches Dies.
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Post Post #2445 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:00 pm

Post by Tierce »

Something I want to bring up:

If you are Town and a PR, please please PLEASE learn to crumb your actual results. Refusing to hammer a Townread as a Weak Doctor when you have a Town result on someone else who you read as "null"... after your predecessor had the equally brilliant idea of crumbing a result on someone else entirely... That could have ended very, very badly for Town if one of those "reads" was on one of us.

When you are an investigative PR, you need to be careful. Not just with how you crumb your results, but with how you word your NOT results. People will rightfully hunt for crumbs, and Natirasha's wording on CES and Majiffy's on sirdanilot (while calling SSK null!) were incredibly dangerous for the Town when Natirasha's actual N1 result was on
MafiaSSK
of all people.
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Post Post #2446 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:23 pm

Post by Plum »

Agreed. It all turned out surprisingly not bad for the Town, but one doesn't rely one miracles happening every game.
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Post Post #2447 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:11 pm

Post by SpyreX »

Did I miss dead QT?
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I always lynch scum... sometimes they're just not mafia. :P

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Post Post #2448 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:04 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 2434, Tierce wrote:Oh,
dahling
.


Good job, Town. You could have done better if some people didn't insist on being big distractions, but the power roles did good work. SpyreX, CES, Elscouta--would very much play with again.

ABR, somehow I was "obvscum" who was only lynched due to a guilty on me (and almost got the real PR lynched), while you are the one fakeclaiming pointlessly. Do check your own play before coming in with confirmation bias at the end of the game, please.


Thanks for the game, Plum. <3 The flavor was everything I wanted it to be and CES getting the sociopathic little hellion is all too fitting*~
This game is yet another example of "the role the game is modeled after is not going to survive until Day 2".


___
*
In post 940, Plum wrote:
and
[Maeglin's]
body as it fell smote the rocky slopes of Amon Gwareth thrice ere it pitched into the flames below.
This implies that someone stood there and
counted
.

It was probably Eärendil.
Now aren't you cocky. No, you were easy to spot this game.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
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Post Post #2449 (ISO) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:09 pm

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 2442, Tierce wrote:
In post 2441, PeregrineV wrote:We only mislynched Aegor and Espeonage, the rest we were spot on. Not sure how we could have done much better as a town.
By not no-lynching for no reason, and by not letting Espeonage be lynched over me without at least trying to figure out if he made sense as my partner (he didn't). By not claiming VT early Day 1, by not fakeclaiming, and by not pointlessly trying to gambit with stuff scum already have all the information about. By not insisting that your 6-year-old meta on someone is absolutely correct and up to date.
It all adds to the noise and does not help find scum.

Lynching 4 scum in seven Days is a good job, and I am of the "scum should be able to play a perfect game and still lose due to a good Town/power roles" school, but the Town's game was not "spot-on". You won this game and deserved to do so, with three scum members caught by PRs and the fourth becoming an apathetic flurker, but "only two mislynches" does not mean Town couldn't play better; there's more to good Town Dayplay than lynching.
Yes, very self-aggrandizing, I like it.
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