Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm objecting to PV misrepping me.

Please point out where PV has misrepped you. As in maliciously tried to paint you in a scummy light.

[CrashTextDummie]

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town. If one of the thor/porkens/bulbazak mess or zekrom is scum, then the other one isn't - I don't see scum trying to distract from distancing like that. Actually, if thor/porkens/bulbazak are town,then zek probably is too because scum want mislynches, and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting.

That said, wtf? RVS is not inherently protown.

VOTE: cxin. Have opinions. Express them.

I'm going to ignore the Thor/Porkens/Bulba side of the argument, because it boils down to "whether or not one of these players is scum, Zekrom is town".

Your argument for him being town was therefore "scum want mislynches and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting".

I would say that cxinlee was drawing attention to herself by blatantly not commenting. She most definitely wasn't pushing for any mislynches.

Do you disagree with this assessment?

[PeregrineV]

@smarg

- Do you feel your answers so far have adequately addressed 884 and 885, as to the specifics of those questions?

[CrashTextDummie]

Bulba, where does it look like I'm trying to push a wagon on you? I am not asking you to do the impossible, I am trying to figure out whether your Smargaret read makes sense on its own and whether it's consistent with your other reads.

You never said "I understand the case against her, but I'm still leaning town for some reason", you said "I'm leaning town because she's pushing Cxinlee" and "I'm leaning town because I have stronger suspects". If you had said "I'm leaning town because of gut", we could have had a conversation about what specifically in her play triggered your gut (we can still have this conversation now) and I would have been a lot happier with you.

My problem with you isn't really that you have a leaning town read on her. "Gut" is a weak reason, but it's a reason that can come from town. My problem is that when asked twice about your read on her, you came up with insufficient reasoning (more the second time than the first, admittedly) to support a town lean. If you had gut reasons to town lean, it's not unreasonable at all to expect you to state as much when directly asked. I therefore suspect that you retrofitted your read by claiming "it was gut all along".

I asked first. Tell me why he's town.

Asking TSO to explain his town read on me is reasonable, but you are now voting me and I'd like to know why. I gather you think I'm cooking up a case on you (what makes you think that as opposed to me trying to figure out your slot?). Anything else?

[PeregrineV]

@CTD

- I like the cut of your jib!!

Why are Bulba and Thor voting you, in your opinion?

[Thor665]

Yes, I wouldn't expect the mod to do it at all because it affects gamestate. I could see him do it thinking it wouldn't affect gamestate if the player in question was dead.

It either affects gamestate or it doesn't (it does) there is no difference if the player is dead or not.

Yes, I am arguing that he was checked out from ISO #0:
ISO #0: "I Didn't know the game started"
ISO #2: "I'm Not gonna bother doing anything until 300 posts"
ISO #9: "I missed the beginning, so now I'm behind"
ISO #11: "I have done nothing"
ISO #12: "Haven't done anything, will change"
ISO #14: "I will start playing"

You're misrepresenting what he meant when he said those things, and I am not sold at all.

Now I at least have something to meta you by. If I find town games where you express a town read on one player because you're scum reading another, I'm nailing your Smurf to the wall.

@Pere - as he answers that, why don't you tell me what you like from the CTD slot?

[jasonT1981]

Day 3 Vote Count 9

smargaret 3 - T S O,PeregrineV,BROseidon,
CrashTextDummy 2 - Bulbazak,Thor665,
PeregrineV 1 - smargaret

Not Voting

CrashTextDummie
AntiHero
penguin_alien

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-02 16:40:08)

till Day 3 Deadline

[T S O]

For those scumreading CTD, I too am townreading him, and I'd like to see just why you think he's scum. Because I don't at all.

How about you discuss his take on my messed up Pere/Smarg reads and my response to it - I just summarized my take above and he asked for your take too. I find sketchy logic scummy. I also found Yiley scummy. I also find his logic of trying to clear himself from Yiley scummy.

I find it ironic that in order to do this, I'll have to go back and analyse the damn wallposts I didn't want.

Oh, the sacrifices I make for Mafia.

[T S O]

I apologize for the solid page and a half of ThorTD. The cracks started to appear in my town read of him and I got excited.

His Yiley argument feels cooked up to me and his Smargaret read is not consistent with his Pere read. Talk to me about that please, TSO.

I'm pretty sure that my answer to Thor's question neatly covers this one, so I'll be doing them together CTD.

For those scumreading CTD, I too am townreading him, and I'd like to see just why you think he's scum. Because I don't at all.

I asked first. Tell me why he's town.

It will be done. Hopefully.

[Thor665]

I find it ironic that in order to do this, I'll have to go back and analyse the damn wallposts I didn't want.

With the summary I gave a quick fact check opinion scan would suffice. I'm either crazy or telling the truth.

[Thor665]

Actually, looking back, CTD never even addressed my summary, he just slid on past it.
I personally think that says something about my summary and his logic.

[CrashTextDummie]

You're misrepresenting what he meant when he said those things, and I am not sold at all.

Why do you presume to know what he meant? I have his role PM so I know for a fact that he wasn't avoiding giving opinions because of a scum motivation.

You are choosing to interpret his ISO in a way that's not supported by reality, because there is no evidence that he ever cared about the game and that a transformation took place and you've already pretty much admitted that you pulled the theory out of your smurf since it didn't come from an analysis of the ISO but rather you attempted to make the ISO match the theory after the fact.

Actually, looking back, CTD never even addressed my summary, he just slid on past it.
I personally think that says something about my summary and his logic.

I don't object to the facts of your summary. I disagree with the "makes no sense" and "is silly to suggest" commentary. I've analyzed 5 town-Thor ISOs so far (which is slow goings since Thor ISOs are monstrous) and I haven't found any evidence to contradict your stance of the matter yet, so I remain open to the possibility that you simply operate in a way that seems contradictory and illogical to me. If I don't turn up anything, I'm willing to concede the point.

[CrashTextDummie]

@CTD

- I like the cut of your jib!!

Why are Bulba and Thor voting you, in your opinion?

Two options for Bulba:
A He's scum
B He's misinterpreting my attempts to sort him as malicious (and may have other reasons)

Two options for Thor:
A He's scum
B He's misinterpreting my attempts to get him to reconsider his reads and my subsequent attempts to (re-)sort him as malicious and he also has a terrible read on my predecessor's play

Bulba's option B is easier to swallow than Thor's, so there's that.

[BROseidon]

I'd love to hear how CTD is obv. town.

Because his posting strongly indicates a town role PM, and it should be obvious to anyone reading his posts?

I could go write a full case about how town his posts are, but that requires work, and I'm lazy.

[BROseidon]

How is he obv town?

See above.

[T S O]

I don't have the work done, but I have it started.

Bad news is I'm going to have to post a temporary V/LA for 3-4 days. I don't know if I actually will be V/LA, but the possibility is there.

[BROseidon]

BROseidon doesn't really bother me.

Why didn't my vote on Zek bother you?

Should it have bothered me? Your vote on Zek read as mildly town to me. There's no real upside for scum in pushing a policy lynch on a buddy.

kk. Got what I was looking for ^_^

[BROseidon]

Yeah, I went back and checked, and she was town miller. Who didn't claim until mass claim or something and unsurprisingly got lynched. She was also town in Mini 1527 and got vigged lateish in the game.

I don't see where you're going with this

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, where does it look like I'm trying to push a wagon on you?

So you're going with "I'm not voting you, so there's no way I'm trying to push you as scum."? That's pretty lame and implies a singleness of mind that doesn't exist in mafia, or shouldn't if you're scumhunting. This feels like the beginning of a backpedal.

I am not asking you to do the impossible, I am trying to figure out whether your Smargaret read makes sense on its own and whether it's consistent with your other reads.

Do you really think "null/town" equals "making sense on its own"? Seriously, that's pretty dumb to lead off on when you're supposedly trying to figure out my thought process. "How strong is your null read? Can it stand on its own?" What kind of crap is this? And is it consistent with my other reads? Well, seeing as how I have varying scumreads on you, TSO, Bro, and Anti, I don't think it's too far fetched to have a leaning town read. But apparently, that's not a good enough reason to lean town on her.

You never said "I understand the case against her, but I'm still leaning town for some reason", you said "I'm leaning town because she's pushing Cxinlee" and "I'm leaning town because I have stronger suspects".

I urgently need updated Smargaret reads from Bulba and penguin.

Null/town.

I understand the arguments against her, but I'm not that convinced it indicates scum

, especially when I have several other stronger scumspects.

"I have stronger scumspects" is a pretty good reason to put her in the upper null levels.

Like hell it is. It's no good reason whatsoever to put her

ahead of other null reads

, which you are doing by designating her a "null/town" read.

Why isn't it a good enough reason? Why isn't it a good enough reason to say "I have stronger scumspects." and

"I'm not convinced enough of the cases to think she's scum."

and "I just get an overall town vibe from her." and put her at null/town?

Smargaret was a null/town read because Cxin was a scum read. Cxin flipped town. Smargaret is a null/town read because..?

I thought I explained this rather well. I have stronger scumspects, and

I'm not that convinced by the cases against her so far

. Are you really saying I should be thinking she's scum, because Cxin flipped town?

Try again.

If you had said "I'm leaning town because of gut", we could have had a conversation about what specifically in her play triggered your gut (we can still have this conversation now) and I would have been a lot happier with you.

If I knew what triggered my gut, it wouldn't be gut, now would it?

My problem with you isn't really that you have a leaning town read on her. "Gut" is a weak reason, but it's a reason that can come from town. My problem is that when asked twice about your read on her, you came up with insufficient reasoning (more the second time than the first, admittedly) to support a town lean. If you had gut reasons to town lean, it's not unreasonable at all to expect you to state as much when directly asked. I therefore suspect that you retrofitted your read by claiming "it was gut all along".

Weak reasons, particularly "I understand the case but I'm not convinced she's scum.", and a null/town read should point to it being gut holding it all together. If I had sufficient reasoning, she'd be a town read, and not a null/town read where I'm trying to figure out what exactly it is that is making me lean town. When you push those weak reasons, which are essentially gut reasons in their own right (Seriously, who sees "I have stronger scumreads." and "I'm not convinced she is scum.", and doesn't think it's probably gut holding it together, even if the person doesn't want to admit it?), you're going to see the glue (gut) holding them together. After once seeing that it is gut (which should have been apparent in the first place, if not after a couple questions), who in their right mind then tries to extrapolate gut, when the person with the read can't do so, and then accuses them of making things up, when it was apparent that it was probably gut behind the curtain all along? And who after getting an answer repeatedly that essentially equates to "gut" continues to push it? What's the purpose? It's not to understand the reasoning, because gut means that the person doesn't understand the reasoning themselves. The only purpose, then, is that you're looking for some kind of foothold that you can use to go "See, Bulba is changing his reasoning. He must be scum. Lynch him!", when that isn't the case at all.

Asking TSO to explain his town read on me is reasonable, but you are now voting me and I'd like to know why. I gather you think I'm cooking up a case on you (what makes you think that as opposed to me trying to figure out your slot?). Anything else?

Your pushes on both Thor and myself went past the realm of logical reasoning. The Thor push is confusing, because you are constantly pushing him like you would a scum read, yet you keep calling him town. And then for me, you claim that you're trying to understand my reasoning, even though a town person would have stopped asking the same thing after maybe getting the same answer twice in a row. You knew there was nothing more there, but you kept pushing, because you thought you might be able to get me to say something that you could use out of context for an easy mislynch down the line.

I'd love to hear how CTD is obv. town.

Because his posting strongly indicates a town role PM, and it should be obvious to anyone reading his posts?

Manaical Street Mafia

[CrashTextDummie]

I was on my way to bed, but I caught that Bulba post and now I can't sleep.

If you can't tell at which point I stopped calling Thor town and started entertaining him as scum, you're not paying attention. If that's all you took away from my long ass argument with him, you're

really

not paying attention. If you'd like to chime in on the logical soundness of my Thor argument, be my guest. Don't just sit there and snipe.

The entire rest of your post is one of your patented quote walls that's really all about you and your play, and how I'm scum for not getting it. That's your scum MO. Also part of your scum MO is giving the same answer again and again, even if the question has changed (and then putting the blame for the repetition on the person you're arguing with). I get that you claim to have a null read on Smarg. I got it a while ago. I get that it's based on "gut". I got that fairly recently but still a couple quote walls ago. I don't believe in "gut" as a mystical, unexplainable power in mafia. Gut doesn't materialize out of nothing. "Post X made me think town, but I can't really explain why", that's the kind of argument I can buy (cheaply). You haven't made a single comment on any element of Smargarets play (other than her push against Cxinlee, which is moot). Smargaret's ISO isn't that long. She's done stuff that is significant, that can be analyzed. Cases against her can be commented on. You have done none of that. You have only gut. Gut which doesn't have to make sense. Gut which can't be questioned. It's a bullshit handwave argument.

This whole thing started out with me noting that you were calling Smargaret a town read because of a Cxinlee scumread and wondering whether the townflip had changed your read. When it hadn't, I questioned whether that made sense based on the reason given. You started getting into the minutiae of whether a null/town read is a town read or a null read, which I consider a distraction (also part of your scum MO). I questioned your Pere read vis-à-vis your Smargaret read. You brought up vibes and soon after gut. You voted me. I questioned whether you actually had a gut read all along, since it hadn't come up previously. You insisted it was obvious and that it was scummy of me to question it. Well, I question it. I question that what you said translates to "gut". I question that all you have on Smargaret is "gut". I question your scumhunting integrity.

I have just demonstrated that there is progression in my attack against you. I'm not repeating myself. I'm not harping. I started out with a mild scum read on you, for stuff like #822 and your treatment of the Smarg/Cxinlee situation (for which I also noted down PA). Naturally, I questioned, to see whether there was merit to my suspicions. You defended. I wasn't convinced, so I pressed. You started counter attacking. I didn't sneak up on you. If I think there's enough of a case against you to push a wagon, I will. That's not "digging up anything you could to push a wagon".

The cherry on top of all of this is that you accuse me of angling for an "easy mislynch" on you and link Maniacal in the same post. I tried for 3 days to lynch you in Maniacal, to no avail. PA tried for another 2. We had you figured out on D3 and I could write about 5 more paragraphs on what I've learned about your scum play from that game (and maybe I will). Could you do the same for me? Seeing as you tracked me to a kill in that game after set-up info had already narrowed down the field of possibility severely for your scumteam, I question your CTD reading credentials. Besides, just posting a link is cheap, point out what specifically about my play here you suppose mirrors my play there.

[Thor665]

How is he obv town?

See above.

It doesn't work that way, buddy. Look, you called him "obvious" and then your answer is "well...his, y'know, like...*everything*"
And you were asked by two people.

You can't give a clear and simple answer. (which, if it's obvious, you should be able to)
Two people asked you (which, if it's really obvious, requires both of us to be utterly terrible or scum)

So, is it obvious, or is it just that your opinion is that he's generally townish? Because if it's the latter I don't get where you come off digging at the case, and if it's the former I would expect you to be able to put into words the read and do so succinctly.Look at this utter inanity he's doing with me "Duuuur, I think Thor is doing stuff illogicaly, even though Thor point by point explained the logic and noted how it's not his logic, I'll just call it illogical with no actual ability to explain the illogic - also, I'll then call that a meta claim on Thor's part and now, seriously guys, I'm reading all of Thor's town isos to try to find him ever saying anything different! Seriously, this case will be EPIK! Fear not, i shall return!"



Yeah, super town minded logic right there. He thinks I'm illogical, and instead of, y'know, just explaining how it's logical that, if I suspect someone I should town read everyone they're attacking (which, at the heart of it, is really what he's calling me out for not doing...and no one does that..and even if they did it doesn't make it illogical that I don't) but instead of doing that he's now claiming to be hunting for a hypocrisy tell on me. Like, seriously, you honestly believe he's spending his time reading my town isos looking for that? You couldn't do it, even with Ctrl+F, how are you going to do that? You'd *literally* have to read the *entire* iso *AND* put it in context...and he's supposedly doing this? Oh, and on top of that, he's only looking at town games...not scum ones. Which, frankly, seems silly. First off, if he can catch me doing it as scum it makes his case STRONGER than if he catches me doing it as town, and second off theoretically I either should or shouldn't do it regardless of alingment because he's claiming it's a logic failing on my part...which means he has to think I'm lying about it if it makes me scummy, which means I WOULDN'T EVEN DO IT AS TOWN IF IT WAS A SCUMTELL!

Do you really believe that he's doing this search?
Do you really believe, even if he is, his concept of searching my town games makes sense for what he needs to find?
Do you really think this is his concept of scumhunting?
I don't.

I think he's scum.
I think this is all smokescreen.
I think we should lynch him.

Sheep?

[Thor665]

Just to sum up the above wall in short to make my point;

Who here seriously thinks CTD is actually going abck and reading a bunch of my isos to find if I ever town read someone that I otherwise had no read on or a scummy read on because someone else I had a scum read on was attacking them? Just think about how well you'd have to read an iso to even spot that situation, and then ask yourself if you think he's really doing it.

I'll be here.
Voting CTD.

[penguin_alien]

Yeah, I went back and checked, and she was town miller. Who didn't claim until mass claim or something and unsurprisingly got lynched. She was also town in Mini 1527 and got vigged lateish in the game.

I don't see where you're going with this

I think she has a town game that gets misread, possibly one that she thinks is townier than it is (as per not claiming miller because she thought she'd be NK'd earlier) and one that is characterized by confidence. As she said, she apparently has no recent scum game for comparison's sake, but I don't have a good feeling about her being scum. I don't know how this might have shifted, but it's what I have to work with.

[BROseidon]

I think she has a town game that gets misread, possibly one that she thinks is townier than it is (as per not claiming miller because she thought she'd be NK'd earlier) and one that is characterized by confidence. As she said, she apparently has no recent scum game for comparison's sake, but I don't have a good feeling about her being scum. I don't know how this might have shifted, but it's what I have to work with.

Okay, that's valid.

Now give me a non-meta reason.

[CrashTextDummie]

Open 473 has mild evidence to support your claimed stance of committing to town reads only conditional to a flip.

ISO #70: "I would say that will depend on the flip - I currently lean yes though."

The same game tripped me up because because I thought you read N as town because of a Jesse scumread, but the context in your ISO wasn't clear and I figured out that there was another scum wagon in the mix.

The several Newbies I read (from newest to 1444) didn't yield any evidence because you weren't really questioned about your town reads. I also realized that you're generally stringy with giving out town reads, so could see you being reluctant to be pinned to one, which also mildly supports your stance.

Would you like to claim that I just pulled that out of a hat?

I didn't read your wall and I'm not going to right now, I really should sleep.