Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[BROseidon]

I'm writing up a full town case on CTD b/c Thor pissed me off with that last post. I'll be back in a while.

[CrashTextDummie]

That's Open 463: Black Flag Nightless, got mixed up in my notes. Apologies.

[penguin_alien]

I think she has a town game that gets misread, possibly one that she thinks is townier than it is (as per not claiming miller because she thought she'd be NK'd earlier) and one that is characterized by confidence. As she said, she apparently has no recent scum game for comparison's sake, but I don't have a good feeling about her being scum. I don't know how this might have shifted, but it's what I have to work with.

Okay, that's valid.

Now give me a non-meta reason.

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town. If one of the thor/porkens/bulbazak mess or zekrom is scum, then the other one isn't - I don't see scum trying to distract from distancing like that. Actually, if thor/porkens/bulbazak are town,then zek probably is too because scum want mislynches, and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting.

That said, wtf? RVS is not inherently protown.

VOTE: cxin. Have opinions. Express them.

First post. To keep classifying Zekrom as town, she has to put three players ranging from reasonably active to formidable as town reads, limiting options right off the bat. And if she knows Zekrom is scum here, she also risks having to town read all three of them, limiting flexibility there. I think scum don't cut themselves off so severely here.

So as far as I can tell people think I'm scum because I misread Zek? That's fair, I obviously did misread him. I didn't think I saw any questions directed at me, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that I did, please call me on it.

Still not liking TSO. The whole "I'm too busy defending myself to scumhunt" routine (which is bull, I don't recall seeing a whole lot of pressure on him) and saying I'm scum - for misreading Zek, which he admits he did too? It really doesn't read true.

Yiley has vanished without providing any sort of content. Not good, but also kind of pointless to pressure someone who isn't playing ight now, so IGMEOY when he comes back.

cxin is still scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: cxin

Unrepentant tunneling even after apparently misreading Zekrom? This would be a good chance for scum-smargaret to retreat into confusion and not stick out after being down a teammate D1. Instead she pushes the same wagon? Scum tend to tunnel to look busy and avoid bad lynches. This tunnel avoided the good Zekrom lynch.

[BROseidon]

VOTE: Bulba

[BROseidon]

This CTD town-case is tiring. Fuck walls.

[BROseidon]

How is he obv town?

See above.

It doesn't work that way, buddy. Look, you called him "obvious" and then your answer is "well...his, y'know, like...*everything*"
And you were asked by two people.

You can't give a clear and simple answer. (which, if it's obvious, you should be able to)
Two people asked you (which, if it's really obvious, requires both of us to be utterly terrible or scum)

So, is it obvious, or is it just that your opinion is that he's generally townish? Because if it's the latter I don't get where you come off digging at the case, and if it's the former I would expect you to be able to put into words the read and do so succinctly.Look at this utter inanity he's doing with me "Duuuur, I think Thor is doing stuff illogicaly, even though Thor point by point explained the logic and noted how it's not his logic, I'll just call it illogical with no actual ability to explain the illogic - also, I'll then call that a meta claim on Thor's part and now, seriously guys, I'm reading all of Thor's town isos to try to find him ever saying anything different! Seriously, this case will be EPIK! Fear not, i shall return!"



Yeah, super town minded logic right there. He thinks I'm illogical, and instead of, y'know, just explaining how it's logical that, if I suspect someone I should town read everyone they're attacking (which, at the heart of it, is really what he's calling me out for not doing...and no one does that..and even if they did it doesn't make it illogical that I don't) but instead of doing that he's now claiming to be hunting for a hypocrisy tell on me. Like, seriously, you honestly believe he's spending his time reading my town isos looking for that? You couldn't do it, even with Ctrl+F, how are you going to do that? You'd *literally* have to read the *entire* iso *AND* put it in context...and he's supposedly doing this? Oh, and on top of that, he's only looking at town games...not scum ones. Which, frankly, seems silly. First off, if he can catch me doing it as scum it makes his case STRONGER than if he catches me doing it as town, and second off theoretically I either should or shouldn't do it regardless of alingment because he's claiming it's a logic failing on my part...which means he has to think I'm lying about it if it makes me scummy, which means I WOULDN'T EVEN DO IT AS TOWN IF IT WAS A SCUMTELL!

Do you really believe that he's doing this search?
Do you really believe, even if he is, his concept of searching my town games makes sense for what he needs to find?
Do you really think this is his concept of scumhunting?
I don't.

I think he's scum.
I think this is all smokescreen.
I think we should lynch him.

Sheep?

Ugh, this is a long way of saying "no u." Now you're making me do work...

The short answer is "gut." Yeah, it's a cop out, so I'm not gonna leave it at that, but my gut is generally good. My gut on day 1 has been giving me better reads than most people have by LyLo.

As to the long answer about what drives that, well, fuck, you're making me do work. Fuck you, Thor, but here we go:

This game is quite a drag. Read up to the D1 lynch. Most likely to be scum on the wagon is Smudger, whose vote seemed to carry over from the RVS. He did little to push the wagon along and I got the distinct feeling he was trying to tie people to Zekrom (zakk, TSO). Thor and Scorpion are vague paranoia reads at this point. The former I feel played softball with Zekrom, essentially telling him what he needed to do to get Thor to relent. The latter zoomed in on Zekrom-scum perhaps a little too early and too easily. BROseidon doesn't really bother me.

Off the wagon, smargaret is scummiest by a fair margin. Scummy defense of Zekrom, scummy push on Cxin, scummy pretty much everything. Bulbazak is about as strong a town-read as I'm comfortable giving him and TSO I thought handled Zekrom in a manner that I'd find unusual for scum. Zakk is certainly a special little snowflake and I can't wait for him to turn into PeregrineV.

Moving on to D2.

Here we get CTD's first catchup post. He provides good analytics from a multiple perspectives on the Zekrom wagon. Additionally, you'll notice that I poked his statement that my vote didn't bother him, and we'll get to his response in a bit. I would have expected scum-CTD to want to push me, given his experience with me was in the game where my "awesome reads, gets mislynched anyways" play was most extreme. I'd expect that to have lead him to think of me as a relatively low-risk, high-reward lynch, so that scum-him would want me lynched for that.

Bit of weirdness from Bulba to start D2:

First, NKs are a mess of WIFOM, especially when you don't have enough to establish a pattern. Second, if my purpose as scum was to kill those who suspect me, explain why I would kill Porkens, who I felt I could lynch, over Thor, who was seen as univeral town and would never get lynched?

Again, the question is: Why would I kill someone who I felt i could get lynched, instead of just killing the person who would never get lynched?

Do you usually assess who's easy and hard to lynch when you're town?

If this has been brought up and answered further down the line, feel free to ignore me.

Finds the same weirdness that I pointed out (granted, I pulled from a later Bulba post, but I digress). Additionally, the fact that he went in a different direction than me with the weirdness makes me feel good; he wasn't just parroting me from later.

All caught up. Smargaret is an overwhelming scum read. I actively hated Scorpions thrust for the entirety of D2 that he was in and penguin hasn't instilled much confidence in the slot. Smudger I thought looked decent in his D2 posts, but Antihero was somewhat sketch around the Cxin wagon.

Thor makes me sad. All his pushes from D2 forward have been offensively bad and I'd hate for him to sully his reputation further if he was town in this game. Which I currently think he might be. Could I interest you in talking some sense, Thor? Pull you out of the darkness and onto the side of goodness and justice?

PV's entry into the game was awesome and his entire play so far is without blemish. Very town.

I urgently need updated Smargaret reads from Bulba and penguin.

vote: smargaret

I'll get to case making and arguments after a round of sleep.

#goodposting.

Lack of qualification of smarg read is fine in the context of the prior post. Also brings up a good point re: Thor. Again, what's the scum motivation in the interaction with Thor here? Scum need 3 mislynches. At this juncture, he could set up for a mislynch on 3 not-Thor people if he were scum, so this would be a moot point to bring up. Nobody else had talked about it at all. Scum-CTD would want town-Thor to go along the same track and mislynch the lynchbait.

Why does it feel like you're almost exclusively going after soft targets? Apart from Bulba (from whom you've largely backed off), your suspect list from D2 forward comprised zakk, Yiley, Cxin, all the non contributors, dropouts and oddballs. You maintained your zakk push post Pere-replacing in, but I don't really see what you find scummy about him and your vote seems to largely be a zakk-carry-over. Your reads are by and large the least ambitious out of anyone in the game and I quite frankly find it hard to swallow that you'd think both scum would be in that group of people.

Also, for someone who once claimed to support lots of lynches, why is your vote so stagnant? It's been on Pere's slot since the beginning of D2 with only a slight detour of hammering a townie. You mince words a lot with a variety of people, but I don't get an overwhelming feeling that you have much interest in moving the game forward.

Knock yourself out.

Thor, if you're town, what is the scum-motivation behind this? There isn't. CTD wouldn't have a reason to want you to back off this path. He's actively disrupting a game flow that would have favored scum-him.

You're Townreading smargaret?

It's a null/town read, but a town read nonetheless.

I can't see why.

I just realized I didn't answer this one. It has to do with the way she's pursuing Cxin. I read him as scum, and I don't think she's bussing him.

I urgently need updated Smargaret reads from Bulba and penguin.

Null/town. I understand the arguments against her, but I'm not that convinced it indicates scum, especially when I have several other stronger scumspects.

Smargaret was a null/town read because Cxin was a scum read. Cxin flipped town. Smargaret is a null/town read because..?

I'm obviously looking for potential Smargaret buddies, but I find this answer problematic regardless of her alignment.

PA had similar reasons to dismiss Smargaret yesterday:

smargaret--Eh, if cxinlee is scum as I suspect smargaret pretty much has to be town or incredibly self-destructive scum. Going with town unless I get reason to think otherwise.

And she's decidedly on the fence today. Not necessarily indicative of scumbuddies, but also scummy.

More solid analytics that are indicative of town.

Gonna skip ahead to the stuff you specifically address, Thor, since the stuff between here and there shouldn't be up for contention. But first...

BROseidon doesn't really bother me.

Why didn't my vote on Zek bother you?

Should it have bothered me? Your vote on Zek read as mildly town to me. There's no real upside for scum in pushing a policy lynch on a buddy.

This is an incredibly town reaction. He's confused as to why I'm questioning him on his town reading my vote on Zek. Scum-him would have looked to see what I might have felt was scummy about it, then tried to downplay that relative to the "towniness" in my vote. Instead, he's just kind of like "wat."

Okay, now onto the stuff with his meaty argument with you...

I openly discussed the question, the answer, and why it made me suspect Yiley. If that equates to "bad player" in your head, that's fine, as long as you understand my logic and that it doesn't have anything to do with him being bad at the game.

1

We already have flipped scum in Zekrom who could be described as newb/bad/weak enough to ask the mod such a question. The fact that it was his flip that apparently motivated the question also points toward him being the culprit. What makes you think the question came from another newb/bad/weak player within the scumteam?

There is a difference between not giving opinions and being replaced out. I agree he did both. I am calling him scummy for only one of those things.

2

Why do you think him not giving opinions is indicative of him being scum as opposed to him straight up not playing the game, if you agree that he was, in fact, straight up not playing the game and you don't find that alignment indicative?

Which was and is the truth. If you didn't understand my Yiley case you should have asked for it.

3

"Why do you have a scumread on X" is asking for a case. If you insist on having your teeth pulled, don't complain to the dentist that it hurts.

You've ducked the apathy thing a few times now. I'm going to just choose to chalk that up as 'your opinion' and decide you don't have a real founding for the comment, and at that stage I'm not sure why you brought it up as a defense of your slot. Apathy affects players regardless of their alignment. I find this defense pretty iffy on your part.

4

I've already made it clear that I'm not going to bother substantiating the statement. So yes, you may chalk it up as "my opinion". The point of bringing it up as defense was that apathy was the sole characteristic of his play. The mod-given reason for his replacement is proof that he wasn't active lurking or doing anything else that could be described as a scum tactic. It turns out we don't fundamentally disagree (your stance is that it's not alignment telling, my stance is that it's more town-telling if at all). All that remains is for you to realize that your read was bad.

1 is a valid point. My first thought when that shit got posted was that Zek asked, since Zek seemed to have no idea what he was doing. You're trying to make a distinction that doesn't really exist.

2 is another valid point. You shouldn't have been able to get a read on Yiley. He did nothing in the game and AFK'd out. That's someone not playing to a win con.

3 Still solid posting

4 While I disagree with CTD's assertion that apathy is a town-tell, his positionality makes sense. You're pushing a slot that he replaced into that had no content, and that lack of content is functionally mod-confirmed not to have been alignment indicative. From a town-him perspective, he should be finding this bizarre. From a scum-him perspective, there are better ways to shake suspicion.

Not what I was getting at. We've already established that you don't think Pere is bussing Smargaret (you said you would townread Pere if Smargaret were to flip scum). It follows that you don't think they are a scum team and that Pere-scum and Smargaret-scum are mutually exclusive possibilities for you. Given your conviction of Pere-scum, it would stand to reason that this would inform your Smargaret read to some extent.

But apparently it does not.

Did I get any of that wrong?

Look at CTD looking first at your reasoning, then poking things that are wrong with it, instead of spinning the content to make you appear scummy.

I didn't "act" like anything. I digested and interpreted what you said and gave it back to you for comment.

Is saying "a Smarg scum flip would clear Pere" not the same as saying "I don't think Smarg and Pere are scum together"?
Does your current Pere read not influence your current Smargaret read at all?

Very town logical extension. He's looking at how you're mapping the gamestate, and trying to get a better sense of it. Also, it's strange that you're not working with associatives before flips; there's no reason not to.

His flip on his read on you makes sense. He poked and prodded a position set and found inconsistencies that he feels are indicative of scum. Regardless of whether I agree with him, this sort of thought process strongly implies town.

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town. If one of the thor/porkens/bulbazak mess or zekrom is scum, then the other one isn't - I don't see scum trying to distract from distancing like that. Actually, if thor/porkens/bulbazak are town,then zek probably is too because scum want mislynches, and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting.

That said, wtf? RVS is not inherently protown.

VOTE: cxin. Have opinions. Express them.

I'm going to ignore the Thor/Porkens/Bulba side of the argument, because it boils down to "whether or not one of these players is scum, Zekrom is town".

Your argument for him being town was therefore "scum want mislynches and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting".

I would say that cxinlee was drawing attention to herself by blatantly not commenting. She most definitely wasn't pushing for any mislynches.

Do you disagree with this assessment?

Again, good posting indicative of town. He's looking at evidence in-thread and evaluating it, not trying to create "evidence" out of what's in the thread.

I don't object to the facts of your summary. I disagree with the "makes no sense" and "is silly to suggest" commentary. I've analyzed 5 town-Thor ISOs so far (which is slow goings since Thor ISOs are monstrous) and I haven't found any evidence to contradict your stance of the matter yet, so I remain open to the possibility that you simply operate in a way that seems contradictory and illogical to me. If I don't turn up anything, I'm willing to concede the point.

You're right that it's weird for CTD to be reading ISOs of your town game. I can't prove whether he's actually reading your ISOs or not, but I can think about it in the context of the rest of his posting, and his motivations in saying something like that. The rest of his posting is solid. Additionally, scum-him wouldn't want to make that statement. Making an absurd "this can't be true" statement about doing meta analysis is pretty dumb, since of course you'd jump on it in a town-you CTD-scum gamestate. It's the "too ridiculous to be false" idea.

Open 473 has mild evidence to support your claimed stance of committing to town reads only conditional to a flip.

ISO #70: "I would say that will depend on the flip - I currently lean yes though."

The same game tripped me up because because I thought you read N as town because of a Jesse scumread, but the context in your ISO wasn't clear and I figured out that there was another scum wagon in the mix.

The several Newbies I read (from newest to 1444) didn't yield any evidence because you weren't really questioned about your town reads. I also realized that you're generally stringy with giving out town reads, so could see you being reluctant to be pinned to one, which also mildly supports your stance.

Would you like to claim that I just pulled that out of a hat?

I didn't read your wall and I'm not going to right now, I really should sleep.

Cites specific things from a game.

Scum wouldn't put themselves in a position to back absurd meta shit like this.

[Thor665]

Would you like to claim that I just pulled that out of a hat?

I didn't read your wall and I'm not going to right now, I really should sleep.

You didn't read my wall, but this question is based in defense of yourself from things I said in that wall.
Meh and double meh.

[Thor665]

@BRO

A few quick thoughts;

Functionally you're calling him town for mostly two big events. Not scumreading you and scumreading me. You say he's town for the one and town for the other, when really they're flip sides of the same coin - he's going to town and scumread some people by definition. Your value for yours is based on a presumptiont hat he thinks you're a worthwhile lynch. First off, he doesn't really rule you out, second, we have little data to be sure that he believes what you say he does about you. As regards me, he was already in my sights, openly claimed, so he can't really go along with my reads for easy sheep because *he* is one of those reads, and most of his early friction with me had to do with trying to sell to others that my reads were bad...I see a lot of potential scum motivation there.

I give you some points on the Pere thing, he easily could have focused more on the him thing, but I feel he went after both equally, and so do not see it as overtly townish.

I find his meta research on me angle not too ridiculous to have to be true.

I do not see value in applying associatives prior to knowing the result of an alignment flip of one of the associatives. I am aware of my associatives, but I do not apply them as reads prior to confirming one of the alignments. Anyone who does is a bad player in my opinion. I don't care that you agree with CTD's theory of bad play.

I see little reason to believe Zek asked the question,t hat dude has been in like 21098321028 concurrent games, I'm pretty sure he knew what a flip post was.

I also do not see how you can agree with the statement that Yiley cannot be read. This boggles my mind. Everything is game relevant in some manner, and Yiley certainly had a number of game relevant posts. I can accept that you believe he would be hard to read - but to say that he is unreadable? Hogwash. I find it, I suppose, less sketchy of CTD to go for that defense since apparently others share it, but I see no reason to have that belief.

Also, there was no "no U" in my question to you - I haven't ducked answering anything you've asked

As regards my last post, what do you think about him "not reading my wall" but also posting defense to points I raised from said wall.
That looks sketchy to me. I think he's lying.
Your thoughts?

[Thor665]

Also, thus far, all of his research on me has shown evidence that I behave exactly like this as town - his tone towards me has changed not at all.
If he was reading scum games I might justify this, because I personally think I behave the same, but he's not researching town games, all he's doing is finding out that his scumtell on me is something I happily do as town. Whoop-dee-doo. Functionally that dings back his scumtell to me to...I'm not sure.

[CrashTextDummie]

Would you like to claim that I just pulled that out of a hat?

I didn't read your wall and I'm not going to right now, I really should sleep.

You didn't read my wall, but this question is based in defense of yourself from things I said in that wall.
Meh and double meh.

I read the summary of your wall (#996). For being so averse to people making presumptions about your play, you're doing an awful lot of it yourself.

I'll deal with the rest tonight once I'm home.

[jasonT1981]

Day 3 Vote Count 10

smargaret 2 - T S O,PeregrineV,
CrashTextDummy 2 - Bulbazak,Thor665,
PeregrineV 1 - smargaret
Bulbazak 1 - BROseidon,

Not Voting

CrashTextDummie
AntiHero
penguin_alien

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-02 16:40:08)

till Day 3 Deadline

[Thor665]

Would you like to claim that I just pulled that out of a hat?

I didn't read your wall and I'm not going to right now, I really should sleep.

You didn't read my wall, but this question is based in defense of yourself from things I said in that wall.
Meh and double meh.

I read the summary of your wall (#996). For being so averse to people making presumptions about your play, you're doing an awful lot of it yourself.

I'll deal with the rest tonight once I'm home.

Describe your methodology for picking which games of mine you've read.

[BROseidon]

I find his meta research on me angle not too ridiculous to have to be true.

I know this is potentially moving into WIFOM territory, but I don't think scum-CTD would cheese like that. Even if he's scum, I think he's reading those ISOs.

[BROseidon]

Functionally you're calling him town for mostly two big events. Not scumreading you and scumreading me. You say he's town for the one and town for the other, when really they're flip sides of the same coin - he's going to town and scumread some people by definition. Your value for yours is based on a presumptiont hat he thinks you're a worthwhile lynch. First off, he doesn't really rule you out, second, we have little data to be sure that he believes what you say he does about you. As regards me, he was already in my sights, openly claimed, so he can't really go along with my reads for easy sheep because *he* is one of those reads, and most of his early friction with me had to do with trying to sell to others that my reads were bad...I see a lot of potential scum motivation there.

I'm not calling him town on the latter position, and you glossed over a fair bit of what I said. With the exception of his position on me, my read on him is because of the logic and approach he's taking in trying to figure things out. He's looking at the content of the game and working from that, not trying to spin content for a predetermined agenda. That's what looks town to me.

[BROseidon]

I also do not see how you can agree with the statement that Yiley cannot be read. This boggles my mind. Everything is game relevant in some manner, and Yiley certainly had a number of game relevant posts. I can accept that you believe he would be hard to read - but to say that he is unreadable? Hogwash. I find it, I suppose, less sketchy of CTD to go for that defense since apparently others share it, but I see no reason to have that belief.

Also, there was no "no U" in my question to you - I haven't ducked answering anything you've asked

As regards my last post, what do you think about him "not reading my wall" but also posting defense to points I raised from said wall.
That looks sketchy to me. I think he's lying.
Your thoughts?

Last few points that I want to cover.

Maybe Yiley is theoretically readable, but I think it'd require some serious meta knowledge/ability to get into Yiley's head. I don't have that, and I don't think you have that either (given that you haven't appealed to it at all).

CTD responded to your wall thing. Gonna do due diligence on that.

[BROseidon]

Yup, checks out.

Also, Thor, CTD, can you both try being more succinct? My eyes are seriously glazing over at the wall-wars.

[PeregrineV]

@Pere - as he answers that, why don't you tell me what you like from the CTD slot?

Relevant and clearly articulated posting.

Look at 830. Asked for clarification, and then asks you a question, and states why he is asking the question. Asks another question and then the reason why he has that question.

Look at 835. Asks another question. And points out the same issue in both Bulba and Penguin. This shows he is reading and is fully aware of the gamestate.

In 836, after you answered his question with a question while not answering it despite him stating the reason for the question, he rephrases the question with smaller breakdown components of the original question.

Etc.

[PeregrineV]

@CTD

- I like the cut of your jib!!

Why are Bulba and Thor voting you, in your opinion?

Two options for Bulba:
A He's scum
B He's misinterpreting my attempts to sort him as malicious (and may have other reasons)

Two options for Thor:
A He's scum
B He's misinterpreting my attempts to get him to reconsider his reads and my subsequent attempts to (re-)sort him as malicious and he also has a terrible read on my predecessor's play

Bulba's option B is easier to swallow than Thor's, so there's that.

Bulba is a pain to read sometimes, and I've been semi-skimming his recent stuff because his Zek interactions semi-cleared him as town for me. Maybe I'll go back and look him over while I wait for smargaret to answer.

I think I talked about Thor already. Somebody can't be scum for having the wrong reads, but willfully fighting against the understanding of those reads bothers me.

[PeregrineV]

I was hoping to catch up more, but there are some walls coming up. Look forward to reading them, but it will have to be later.

[jasonT1981]

Mod Note - I can't believe I have to say this..

but if you die, there will be a role reveal

. If you are unhappy with the fact roles are revealed upon death/lynch.. please contact me or ask to replace out.

OK, I have seen this being discussed. This has nothing to do with the on going game or relates to any living player, and was for full transparency due to an issue after flip with Zekrom25 via PM he sent me. I can't go into it any further right now as it would take away from the actual game and will explain after game.

However, this was a small post to let anyone and everyone know it was a full reveal game who may have been confused by things (I doubt anyone else actually was) And has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

But to put plainly - this is nothing to do with the on going game as it stands now or ever and was posted simply to clear up confusion.

Carry on as normal and ignore the above quoted warning as it in no way impacts anything in the game. I will explain everything in full after the game.. but yea, the above quote has no impact in the actual game and was just me as mod covering all bases

[Thor665]

I'm not calling him town on the latter position, and you glossed over a fair bit of what I said. With the exception of his position on me, my read on him is because of the logic and approach he's taking in trying to figure things out. He's looking at the content of the game and working from that, not trying to spin content for a predetermined agenda. That's what looks town to me.

I didn't address the logic stuff because I strongly disagree. I find his logic bad.
He, in turn, finds my logic bad.
Therefore, for me, it's a non-starter as a town tell on him because my immediate response is "he's not actually being logical you twerp!" and at that point it goes into potential debate of whether you think his logic is good. I am content to know that you think his logic is good, but I'm not going to take that as a town tell and see no value in debating it at this stage unless you really wish to - in which case my stance is 'his logic is not good, and is also bad'

Maybe Yiley is theoretically readable, but I think it'd require some serious meta knowledge/ability to get into Yiley's head.

Well, it depends what you're reading from him.
You look at his iso and go "eh, nothing there, can't be read"
I look at it and go "Hurm...nothign there, why? He was posting, and was posting about people he wanted dead, why is it so barren...oh, he's scum and did it intentionally!"

Same evidence, different approaches.
What I find objectionable is CTD not even discussing that with me, he just comes out with a "you can't even use that meta!" declaration and tries to shut down the conversation (for the record, bad logic in my opinion) and it isn't town minded. The town response would have been 'what do you see?' and 'show examples'
He didn't do this, he got spooked and tried to shut it down as a conversation topic. I find that scummy.

@Pere - as he answers that, why don't you tell me what you like from the CTD slot?

Relevant and clearly articulated posting.

Look at 830. Asked for clarification, and then asks you a question, and states why he is asking the question. Asks another question and then the reason why he has that question.

Look at 835. Asks another question. And points out the same issue in both Bulba and Penguin. This shows he is reading and is fully aware of the gamestate.

In 836, after you answered his question with a question while not answering it despite him stating the reason for the question, he rephrases the question with smaller breakdown components of the original question.

Etc.

Functionally I'm doing the same thing. I ask questions, I state reasoning, I ask questions off that reasoning and the answers I get.
Does that make me town?

OK, I have seen this being discussed. This has nothing to do with the on going game or relates to any living player, and was for full transparency due to an issue after flip with Zekrom25 via PM he sent me. I can't go into it any further right now as it would take away from the actual game and will explain after game.

However, this was a small post to let anyone and everyone know it was a full reveal game who may have been confused by things (I doubt anyone else actually was) And has nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

But to put plainly - this is nothing to do with the on going game as it stands now or ever and was posted simply to clear up confusion.

Carry on as normal and ignore the above quoted warning as it in no way impacts anything in the game. I will explain everything in full after the game.. but yea, the above quote has no impact in the actual game and was just me as mod covering all bases

The WIFOM grows thick here.
You poor bastard.

I'm content not to bother with a Pere lynch today.
Let's lynch CTD.

[Bulbazak]

@CTD: First, I did see your read change on Thor. My point was that your treatment of Thor prior was really scummy, and the fact that it culminated in a scum read does not surprise me whatsoever.

Second, your pushing on my reasoning for a null/town read on Smargaret really doesn't make sense from a town perspective. You should have known why I currently had that read, as I had explained it to somebody else

in the very same post that you quoted.

You knew that it was because I wasn't convinced by the case on her and that I had much stronger scumreads (which, btw, is something that you're taking an exact opposite stance on Thor for). And I can understand maybe asking once and clarifying, but then you started to get really nitpicky on common sense reasoning. "Having stronger scumreads" is simple enough reasoning, and common enough that you attacking it makes no sense, especially when you tell Thor later that if he used similar reasoning for Smargaret it'd be understandable. However, you kept attacking past the point that would be feasible for any town player, which shows that you weren't looking for scum or town motivation, you were seeing what you could use for a Bulba-scum case, which you were already winding up for.

Finally, I don't see how you can be so confused as to why I posted a link to Maniacal, especially since it's in a response to Bro saying that you're too obv. town to be scum. I was townreading you in Maniacal, because you were playing in an obv. town manner, and it was only be PoE via setup spec that I was able to catch you in the first place. Other than that, I don't think you would have ever been pegged as scum. This has caused me to be very cautious when it comes to you. So what do you think my first thought is going to be when I immediately get a scum read off of you? And I don't see how you could object to my linking to that game as town, especially since it would also give people an insight into

my

scum game. The fact that you didn't like that I linked to that game tells me that you're afraid someone will pay attention to your play there and catch you in this game.

Why does it feel like you're almost exclusively going after soft targets? Apart from Bulba (from whom you've largely backed off), your suspect list from D2 forward comprised zakk, Yiley, Cxin, all the non contributors, dropouts and oddballs. You maintained your zakk push post Pere-replacing in, but I don't really see what you find scummy about him and your vote seems to largely be a zakk-carry-over. Your reads are by and large the least ambitious out of anyone in the game and I quite frankly find it hard to swallow that you'd think both scum would be in that group of people.

Also, for someone who once claimed to support lots of lynches, why is your vote so stagnant? It's been on Pere's slot since the beginning of D2 with only a slight detour of hammering a townie. You mince words a lot with a variety of people, but I don't get an overwhelming feeling that you have much interest in moving the game forward.

Knock yourself out.

Thor, if you're town, what is the scum-motivation behind this? There isn't. CTD wouldn't have a reason to want you to back off this path. He's actively disrupting a game flow that would have favored scum-him.

Except that if Thor continued on that path, it would have led him to CTD-scum.

BROseidon doesn't really bother me.

Why didn't my vote on Zek bother you?

Should it have bothered me? Your vote on Zek read as mildly town to me. There's no real upside for scum in pushing a policy lynch on a buddy.

This is an incredibly town reaction. He's confused as to why I'm questioning him on his town reading my vote on Zek. Scum-him would have looked to see what I might have felt was scummy about it, then tried to downplay that relative to the "towniness" in my vote. Instead, he's just kind of like "wat."

The only thing that bothers me about that quote is that he utterly ignores your pushing for a quicklynch to end the day early. That was what sent up red flags for me. The fact that he goes "Oh yeah, there was absolutely nothing in your interaction with Zek that would suggest partners." bugs me.

Look at CTD looking first at your reasoning, then poking things that are wrong with it, instead of spinning the content to make you appear scummy.

Yeah, he just does that later, after he finds out he can't buddy Thor.

His flip on his read on you makes sense. He poked and prodded a position set and found inconsistencies that he feels are indicative of scum. Regardless of whether I agree with him, this sort of thought process strongly implies town.

Except it's the progression that's scummy. He was clearly building up to a Thor-scum read. He was just looking for something he could use, and when he found it, he attacked. Man, that sounds really familiar...

Also, I don't buy the "scum would avoid going after Thor" idea. The game state has been set up for a Thor lynch for awhile now.

I'm actually considering a CTD/Bro team atm.

[CrashTextDummie]

Describe your methodology for picking which games of mine you've read.

I started with the newest finished game and worked my way down. I discarded games where Thor was scum, games with weird mechanics, multiscum games.

The question at hand was whether Thor uses associative tells in his scumhunting, so naturally I looked at games where he scumhunted and didn't pretend to do so.

I hate doing meta research, particularly on players that have ISOs as extensive as Thor's. This gave me reason and motivation to do so. If I find what I'm looking for, great, Thor is a lying liar. If I don't find what I'm looking for, at least I walk away with hopefully a better understanding of his town meta.

The vast majority of players uses associative tells at least to some extent. I couldn't name one off hand that doesn't. The fact that Thor doesn't is baffling to me, but I'm willing to accept it as a character quirk.

If you think two players are not scum together and one of them has a high chance of being scum, it logically follows that the other has a high chance of being town.
If you think two players are not scum together and both of them have a high chance of being scum, it's logical to defer reading one vis-à-vis the other for after the flip.

Applying this logic, Thor's stance of Pere scum, Smargaret null is inconsistent.
Applying Thor's own brand of logic that associative tells are bad play, his reads on those two are not inconsistent.

Does that clear everything up?

[CrashTextDummie]

A few points, Bulba.

- What you said and and what you claimed to have said is not the same. In my eyes at least it wasn't. I insisted because I wanted to figure out whether you were being disingenuous or whether I was misreading the situation. If you are town, I can see that that would seem pedantic to you. However I don't know that you are town and I had reasons to suspect you weren't. It's not nitpicky to question the fact that you have no real read on Smargaret other than gut at this point in the game. Please address this.

- My issue with Thor and my issue with you with regards to consistency of reads are not the same. If you feel that I have treated you differently, please be more specific and provide quotes.

- Excuse me for being confused as to why you posted a link to Maniacal, seeing as you did so without further comment. I did not object to you linking that game, I objected to you pushing the idea that I as scum would see you as an easy mislynch. I also asked you to elaborate on what Maniacal-related knowledge you are applying to your current read on me, and I find your answer surprising and quite frankly pretty town. The reasons I was so universally town read in Maniacal are very specific to that game, prime of which was the D2 claim (and possibly the massclaim spiel).

- "CTD tried to dig up dirt to build a case", "CTD was winding up to push a wagon", "CTD was planning on turning on Thor from the beginning", "CTD plans to, in the future, quote stuff I said out of context to push an easy mislynch" (!), these all work only if you come at it with the pre-conceived notion that CTD is scum, they are not evidence of me being scum. Your claim that I wasn't looking for scum or town motivation simply isn't true and you are ignoring the evidence to that fact either out of malice or extreme tunnel vision.

-

Except that if Thor continued on that path, it would have led him to CTD-scum.

And you really think challenging his reads, antagonizing him and generally causing a ruckus is the way I as scum would react to that, as opposed to say push a mislynch (Smargaret or Pere) and nightkilling him?

-

The only thing that bothers me about that quote is that he utterly ignores your pushing for a quicklynch to end the day early. That was what sent up red flags for me. The fact that he goes "Oh yeah, there was absolutely nothing in your interaction with Zek that would suggest partners." bugs me.

I don't think quicklynches are inherently bad for the town and I don't think people pushing for quicklynches are inherently scummy.

Yeah, he just does that later, after he finds out he can't buddy Thor.

On what earth was I trying to buddy Thor?

Unless there's stuff you want me to address, I'm done arguing with you for the day.

[CrashTextDummie]

I hate the fact that Smargaret continues her steady rhythm of popping up every 3 days (she's about due) to excuse her lack of content and otherwise not doing much of significance (like answering direct questions that shouldn't take much time and effort at all).

I hate the fact that Antihero is doing the same.

vote: Smargaret