Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[Thor665]

Again, where are you going with this? I can't tell anymore which part or parts you are calling a lie and why you treat any of it as indicative of CTD-scum.

What's your current case on me and how has your reading affected it?

[Thor665]

I'll also admit that I don't think these notes exist.

[Thor665]

Functionally, at the time you made the comment, your "notes" where either one item that didn't support your theory or two items...one that didn't suppot your theory and another that...probably didn't support your theory.

I don't think you'd bother to make "notes" on finding "no actual evidence at all"
You claim to have "notes"
I don't believe you, I still think this is all a sham.

[Thor665]

That'd be like if my theory was 'Penguin bribes herself with chocolate as scum'
And then I read scum games of hers.

Would I make a list of;

Open 213 Post 392 - no bribe.
Open 430 Post -29 - no bribe
Open 300 Post 1627 - no bribe
Newbie 309 Post 56 - no bribe
New York 109 Post 732 - no bribe

Or would I just keep reading till I actually even found a bribe?

Conversely, the other possibility might be if you took "note" of literally anything I said that had anything to do with relational tells.
...in which case apparently I almost never talk about them at all, and those two notes are literally all you found at all. Is that what's going on? Because that also seems to stretch credulity for me.

[BROseidon]

Today I feel like a wall:

Well, it depends what you're reading from him.
You look at his iso and go "eh, nothing there, can't be read"
I look at it and go "Hurm...nothign there, why? He was posting, and was posting about people he wanted dead, why is it so barren...oh, he's scum and did it intentionally!"

Same evidence, different approaches.
What I find objectionable is CTD not even discussing that with me, he just comes out with a "you can't even use that meta!" declaration and tries to shut down the conversation (for the record, bad logic in my opinion) and it isn't town minded. The town response would have been 'what do you see?' and 'show examples'
He didn't do this, he got spooked and tried to shut it down as a conversation topic. I find that scummy.

Run a scum-motivation, town-motivation, personal-motivation table for Yiley and CTD’s actions. You’ll find that personal-motivation is the strongest case for Yiley (hence, null), and equal town and scum motivation in CTD’s actions.

If you’re too lazy, I’ll write out the chart for you, although I don’t know how to use the code for it, so it’ll be ugly as.

Except that if Thor continued on that path, it would have led him to CTD-scum.

With a mislynch he could likely get first in p5, buying him time to get Thor to move elsewhere. I’m also a relatively soft target, and my play this game is something scum-CTD could easily push, especially given my early antagonization of Thor.

The only thing that bothers me about that quote is that he utterly ignores your pushing for a quicklynch to end the day early. That was what sent up red flags for me. The fact that he goes "Oh yeah, there was absolutely nothing in your interaction with Zek that would suggest partners." bugs me.

So if it was a thing that could be pushed, why not push it?

Yeah, he just does that later, after he finds out he can't buddy Thor.

The point re: him looking at the thread and drawing conclusions from the content instead of looking for content that supports conclusions holds for the entire thread, though.

Also, I don't buy the "scum would avoid going after Thor" idea. The game state has been set up for a Thor lynch for awhile now.

Game’s setting up for a Thor mislynch because Thor is the #1 mislynchable player this game. Instead, like, y’know, the hardest.

I hate the fact that Smargaret continues her steady rhythm of popping up every 3 days (she's about due) to excuse her lack of content and otherwise not doing much of significance (like answering direct questions that shouldn't take much time and effort at all).

I hate the fact that Antihero is doing the same.

vote: Smargaret

Eyes on the prize lynch Bulba.

Bulba is town. Scum is probably antihero/PV; CTD looks like (wrong) town, even if that unvote was weird and scummy. Thor is town, but I'm less confident of this than I am in my Bulba read.

Penguin read?

Why are you concerned about a penguin read but not a me-read?

Wow dat Anti vote.

VOTE: Anti back to this. I has a theory.

[Thor665]

Run a scum-motivation, town-motivation, personal-motivation table for Yiley and CTD’s actions. You’ll find that personal-motivation is the strongest case for Yiley (hence, null), and equal town and scum motivation in CTD’s actions.

And, we're right back where we were at the start of this anyway, where you're advancing the idea posts can't be read, and I am advancing the idea they can - you haven't disproven my stance, you've simply restated yours.

I have expressed scum motivation and have considered the possibility that it is just a personal playstyle to lurk, yet advance lynches while saying nothing and decided for myself that it was not the case, and was more likely to come from scum.

Wow dat Anti vote.

Does it make him worse than Bulba in your mind? Your vote indicates as much, your efforts do not. Clarify?

[smargaret]

@smarg

- Do you feel your answers so far have adequately addressed 884 and 885, as to the specifics of those questions?

Yeah, I do. The townread on Zek wasn't so much anything he posted as it was when (in the context of everything else being posted early in the game) he posted it. The questions were to try and GET reads in the first place on the other players (because no, I didn't have to assume thor/bulba/porkens town to get zek town, and if you'd actually read the dang post that I keep quoting and quoting and quoting, you'd see that).

Bulba is town. Scum is probably antihero/PV; CTD looks like (wrong) town, even if that unvote was weird and scummy. Thor is town, but I'm less confident of this than I am in my Bulba read.

Right on queue!

Cue. And I'm early this time, just for you.

Answers please:

I'm objecting to PV misrepping me.

Please point out where PV has misrepped you. As in maliciously tried to paint you in a scummy light.

The whole thing about why I was asking other players questions early D1 and not Zek, and the presumption that you only ask questions because you find someone scummy. Also, the fact that he keeps pushing why I had a townread on Zek, when I've answered that question at least three times, probably more. Harping on the same point OVER and OVER again gives the impression that I haven't answered it, when either I have answered it or PV is being very unclear in what he's actually asking.

cxinlee is massively antitown. Post content or don't post, but posting just for the sake of hearing yourself type is essentially doing the prod dodge thing. Scorpion is town. If one of the thor/porkens/bulbazak mess or zekrom is scum, then the other one isn't - I don't see scum trying to distract from distancing like that. Actually, if thor/porkens/bulbazak are town,then zek probably is too because scum want mislynches, and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting.

That said, wtf? RVS is not inherently protown.

VOTE: cxin. Have opinions. Express them.

I'm going to ignore the Thor/Porkens/Bulba side of the argument, because it boils down to "whether or not one of these players is scum, Zekrom is town".

Your argument for him being town was therefore "scum want mislynches and those don't happen if scum draw attention to themselves by blatantly not commenting".

I would say that cxinlee was drawing attention to herself by blatantly not commenting. She most definitely wasn't pushing for any mislynches.

Do you disagree with this assessment?

It was similar, but different. Cxin came in and started trying to build a wagon, without any commentary on what was going on - but still within that massive block of walls. Zek came in and dropped an RVS vote without any reaction to the argument.

[smargaret]

Bulba is town. Scum is probably antihero/PV; CTD looks like (wrong) town, even if that unvote was weird and scummy. Thor is town, but I'm less confident of this than I am in my Bulba read.

Penguin read?

Coming, probably tomorrow. Penguin and Bro keep getting conflated (thanks Narnia) and I'm having a hard time keeping them straight. I don't have a strong read on either of them, but I'm also not sure whether they're null-scum, null-town, or one of each until I get a chance to read thoroughly.

[smargaret]

VOTE: CTD

butt's in here

Sheeping CTD - this vote is singularly awful.

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

[smargaret]

Er, not sheeping CTD. Sheeping TSO and Bro.

[T S O]

Functionally, at the time you made the comment, your "notes" where either one item that didn't support your theory or two items...one that didn't suppot your theory and another that...probably didn't support your theory.

I don't think you'd bother to make "notes" on finding "no actual evidence at all"
You claim to have "notes"
I don't believe you, I still think this is all a sham.

Why would he claim he'd made notes if he hadn't? There was no need to do it.

[Thor665]

Because he was being accussed of not doing work at all.

At that point claiming notes backs up the concept that 'yo, I'm doing work, look, taking notes here!'

His notes were...two notes.

[T S O]

Why would he take notes if there was nothing to report?

"Hmm, Open 1337, no he didn't do it here." is a useless note, and seems to be what you're asking him for ...in which case he could easily formulate generic notes.

[Thor665]

Why would he take notes if there was nothing to report?

That's my point.
Look at the two notes he's claimed.

One was "does not support my premise" and the other was "probably doesn't support my premise"

So, he apparently made notes of both support and not support, and apparently managed to find only one example of not support and one example of sorta not support and no notes of actual support. I'm calling that suspect as far as 'notes taken' - what's your take?

[T S O]

I have to agree with you there, I guess.

[Thor665]

It just doesn't feel like legit notes. Makes it feel faked, and he presented that there were notes after I suggested it was all fake, and then the notes barely exist and also seem to lack a purpose - my feeling is that he created them hurriedly and in response to my comments about how he's faking the read through.

Maybe there's an argument for 'why even say he'd do the read through' and I can see the point there, but the read through feels so fake that I think he said it to, well, appear to be scumhunting.
I'll also add that if Anti happens to die first and flips scum, I'd still be quite interested in CTD's neck being stretched. (oh, look, a relational tell based on a flip...something I do quite a lot in a lot of games, but none of which he noted, despite noting one instance where I did)

That's my feel.

[Thor665]

I noted three posts from that game, actually, the third being ISO #117 where I thought you cleared N because Jesse (whom you scumread) voted him, but then when reading in context figured out that you were town reading N for previous involvement in a scum wagon.

I also missed this, he apparently found three.
All notes from one game.
No notes supporting the premise.

[CrashTextDummie]

1. It's a complete no brainer to me that if I do a meta dive like this, I'm going to take notes.
2. Since I'm not actually trying to concoct a fraudulent case against you but rather trying to figure you out, I was conscious of the possibility that I'd have to concede my point and if that was the case, I wanted to be able to document why I'm conceding the point.
3. I expected to find more, but didn't. You're acting like having three notes is meager when the fact that I have no notes from the other games I've read is noteworthy in itself.
4. The purpose of taking notes is subjective and just because you wouldn't have taken these notes doesn't mean that I wouldn't either.
5. The suggestion that I could, in the span of 15 minutes at 4:30 AM, read your post, pick a game at random (unless you're suggesting otherwise), take these 3 particular notes and claim with confidence that several other games yield nothing of relevance, is beyond ludicrous.

Now, unless you do what I've asked and explain why any of this would even remotely make sense for me as scum (i.e. something other than "I think he's lying because scum tend to lie"), I am done arguing this point with you.

I'm gonna reread Antihero/Smudger since he has made himself a priority with that vote.

[Thor665]

1. Sure.
2. Okay.
3. I will admit I find that suspect.
4. I do think a common sense question of 'would anyone take these notes?' is reasonable stance to have though.
5. You revealed one note, not three - the others dribbled in later. I do think it would be quite easy in 15 minutes to pick a random game, ISO me, and pull out 'any comment at all' after a Ctrl+F for 'relation' or something.

I think it makes sense for you as scum as a defense when I noted how fake your supposed claim of scumhunting looked.

Yeah, you better go read someone else.
Because that sounds townish.
Take notes.

[Thor665]

5. Heck, if you really wanted to shut me down, and if you only had three notes, why not just have copy/pasted your entire series of notes, just to, y'know, make it clear you were doing your work and make me shut my fat mouth?

[Thor665]

Why even pick that one of the three as the one to talk about?

[jasonT1981]

Day 3 Vote Count 12

smargaret 3 - T S O,PeregrineV,CrashTextDummie
CrashTextDummy 3 - Bulbazak,Thor665,AntiHero
AntiHero3 - penguin_alien, BROseidon, smargaret

Not Voting

V/LA

PereV - March 28-30

with 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-02 16:40:08)

till Day 3 Deadline

[CrashTextDummie]

Reread Smudger/Antihero, and I actually don't think an instalynch is warranted.

Smudger's ISO looks pretty damn decent to me. When I first read through the game, I felt he was trying to tie several people to Zekrom pre-flip (zakk, TSO), which along with the early fixation on Zek-scum smelled of a bus to me. But then he started out D2 arguing that scum would want to drop Zek quickly and I'd find it to be remarkably cheeky of Smudger-scum to subvert his own play like that. He also didn't follow through on these potential Zek-ties, rejecting a zakk wagon because he's an "easy lynch" and wanting for him to be replaced instead. He was also the first to dismiss Thor's "newb-scum messaged Jason about role-flips" argument, pointing out that it more likely came from Zekrom.

He got into an extensive argument with Thor in which he sounds reasonable and Thor comes across as needlessly bullying. Went after Yates who at the time had no one else's attention and dropped out shortly afterwards. Basically, his play feels counter intuitive to what scum would want to do at almost every step of the way.

Antihero generally doesn't give me much of a scumvibe based on tone, but I have issues with his play:

Damn, with all the lurk-a-derps in this game I'm surprised Zekrom couldn't get away with being blatantly anti-town. I guess scum got bus-happy because the jello guy is practically begging everyone to lynch him.

alright, I got to the end of day 1 and kind of half-assed skimmed Day 2. So far, people who I want dead include: TSO, zakk, Yiley, marge, Bulba

If he thought Zek got lynched because scum "got bus-happy", why are his suspects made almost exclusively of people who didn't vote him? Only Yiley on his list was on the wagon, and he didn't contribute to Zek getting run up.

He was madly flip-flopping on Cxinlee, which I'll spoiler for the sake of wallergics:

Spoiler: quotewall

...jello guy actually might be scum, though.

Flipping out on Porkens early + attacks on jello man + already prepping the attack on me as a secondary target = scummy scum scumbag that needs death

Why is Cxin town?

Zekrom just got lynched for being a useless waste of a slot. The lack of an attitude adjustment on jello man's part indicates a non-survivalist (and therefore, non-scum) mindset.

But wouldn't Cxin changing gears be a giveaway? Why would he want to change gears, especially if he could excuse it as "Do you think I'd do this as scum?"? What do you think of his calling Zek town and then backpedaling on the read when asked about it?

Jello man didn't actually pull that thread himself, so I'm inclined to think no.
What do you mean by your second question? That whole "gut town but for no reason" thing?

You keep missing the point. Why would Cxin feel the need to change his play as scum, when such a drastic change in play would draw considerably more attention? Even if we ignore the point about his activity, you still haven't given your opinion on his contradictory stance on Zek.

Right. Because the "sitting on his ass and not doing anything" strategy is working perfectly for him right now and is so obviously the optimal scum strategy here. It's not like you JUST kind of policy lynched someone and people aren't willing to policy lynch again...

Unless you really think he's playing that badly (which I guess isn't

totally

out of the question).

Also yiley' #588 is town.

No, it's the exact opposite of town, and if you think otherwise, you're scum.

Also yiley' #588 is town.

Explain.

I know how it feels, when you have nothing to post and are willing to address anything towards you. Also notice how I've been doing that for most of the game.

Add that to the idea that user cxinlee has been bandwagoned for not posting content, it'd take guts for scum to openly say that they don't have reads (If I swapped spots and his slot turned out to be scum, I would probably force myself to get reads)

Where in that post does Yiley say that he doesn't have reads?

Now I want to kill jelloman.

Meh, "no reads" isn't the right phrase, more of nothing to say.

Are you trying to kill strawberry for saying yiley is town, or making that mistake?

He didn't say he had "nothing to say" either.

Strike two.

No, you're making the assertion that it's town. Tell me what's so town about it.

For me, it's exactly the kind of "attitude adjustment" I was talking about earlier with Bulbazak. That kind of "oh shit" attitude adjustment that comes with watching a scumbag just get lynched for being useless and anti-town. It feels like he's just making a show of saying "oh hey guys, I'm still here and I'm going to be helpful, don't lynch me". Add that with the fact that he didn't actually post any content, and it's scum, scum, scum.

Now, if someone were to say it was "null" I might let that slide. But you, jello man, say that it's "town". Please, tell me why it's "town".

I'm tempted to change my vote to jello man just because of how annoyingly bad his play has been so far, but that's not really a good reason.

it would be really satisfying to see him scum flip but objectively, i think it's likely he'll flip town; classic VI behavior and taking heat from questionable people (penny+Bulb+bro)

too easy and too many people going for the low-hanging fruit

To summarize, he ends his catchup thinking Cxinlee could be scum, quickly changes his tune and begins defending him for having a "non-survivalist mindset" (and using this as a line of attack against Bulba), then suddenly attacks him strongly over disagreeing interpretations of a Yiley post and towards the end of the day mellows out again and retakes a cxinlee = VI stance. This all feels like he's going with the flow, adding fuel to the cxinlee wagon when it needs it (he went from 2 votes to 5 during the time of Antihero's attack), then backing off when a lynch looks very likely.

And then of course there's the fact that he's been a complete non-entity on D3, dropped off the face of the earth for a while, delivered a drive-by vote that doesn't make much sense in the context of his stated reads so far and is insufficiently reasoned (to put it mildly), and then went off to play marathon games.

[CrashTextDummie]

TLDR: Smudger looked pretty damn town but Antihero has done some shifty shit.

Pending Antihero's defense (which needs to happen right now, deadline is looming), I think I still prefer a Smargaret lynch.

[CrashTextDummie]

Eyes on the prize lynch Bulba.

Forgot about this earlier: What's your beef with Bulba?