[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Mr. Flay]

Thinking of running this tonight as a Marathon.

at the mountains of ebony and ivory

2 Goons.
X Townies.

All players have two votes: one (Ebony) to attempt to lynch as normal, one (Ivory) as a protective/preventative. Ivory votes will subtract one from a person's Ebony vote total. If anyone has a majority of Ivory votes at the end of a Day, that person will be Bulletproof the following Night.

Days will lynch on a plurality basis if no one has an outright Ebony majority.

Biggest question, of course, is how many X Townies might be balanced.

[Kaiveran]

I feel like I should know the answer, but

Bombers have unlimited bombs

, right? They can do one each cycle, not once per game?

That was the idea. Can't decide if its townsided or not. Of course it's gonna be swingy cause vigilante kills basically. But I'm thinking in terms of current small multiball setups. (BTW, I don't understand how 2:2:9 mountainous is considered balanced at all, next to F&E&E.)

[TierShift]

Biggest question, of course, is how many X Townies might be balanced.

The setup looks quite mountainous to me, with the only difference that there is someone guaranteed to live to the next day. I don't know how many townies you wanna add, but even 11:2 mountainous is a tad scumsided, so. You might consider throwing in some town power.

[Mr. Flay]

The Ivory votes keep scum from being able to always kill the towniest/leader, yes, which should help. I'm also curious about how the Ivory votes will provide additional information for scumhunting.

[Cheery Dog]

Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)

[Kaiveran]

Given that this seems to be "not sure if srs" season in this thread, I will have to point out that that this is, in fact, srs

DON'T CUT THE RED WIRE 2: ELECTRIC BLUE-WIRE-GALOO

Bigger, badder, and having absolutely nothing to do with the original.
12p.

2 Mafia A Goons

2 Mafia B Goons

1

Red

Bomber

1

Blue

Bomber

1

Red

Wire Cutter

1

Blue

Wire Cutter

4 Chocolate Townies (50/50 Bombproof OR Bulletproof)

Town cannot no-lynch, Scumteams cannot no-kill.

Pregame, and every night phase in-game, the Red and Blue Bombers can choose to attach their colored bomb to a player. Anybody who has a bomb on them is publically announced at the start of the Day, but it is not stated which colors the bombs are (Wire Cutters are privately told which bomb is their color). During the Day, the Red Wire Cutter can choose to detonate the Red bomb, and the Blue Wire Cutter the Blue Bomb, to kill those players.

quoting and updating to counter the bottom-of-page curse

[Mr. Flay]

Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)

No one will have a majority of Ivory votes, so

no one

will be bulletproof. It devolves back to Mountainous in that case.

TierShift: You can't give Town an uncounterclaimable Power Role with the Ivory mechanic in place (see also: Angel Nightless). You can't give scum any power at all without making the imbalance worse. I think it's better with the purity of "Mountainous" at its core, but I'm open to suggestions of roles you think would work.

[Cheery Dog]

Obviously everyone should self ivory vote and have everyone become bulletproof - and have no counter wagons to the lynch. (or maybe keep one so town is choosing who scum can kill)

No one will have a majority of Ivory votes, so

no one

will be bulletproof. It devolves back to Mountainous in that case.

TierShift: You can't give Town an uncounterclaimable Power with the Ivory mechanic. You can't give scum any power at all without making the imbalance worse. I think it's better with the purity of "Mountainous" at its core.

I read it as more ivory than abony, makes more sense when I don't read it wrong.

[Mr. Flay]

Also of course you can't Ivory-vote yourself.

[LlamaFluff]

Odds and Evens

1x Mafia Odd Night Goon (Only can kill odd nights)
1x Mafia Even Night Goon (Only can kill even nights)

7x Vanilla Town
1x Town Tracker

@Flay - I would say at 11 it should be good. Maybe I can see justification for 9/10 player because you can say that you are guaranteeing the most obvious town lives each night, but that feels like a stretch.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah scum will never "miss" a kill because it doesn't work like Doctor, but it should strengthen Town a bit to not lose their leader(s). I don't think I'm going to have time to run it tonight though, and it looks like smaller games are already having trouble filling.

Alternatively the cutoff for Ivory-Bulletproof could be plurality>=Ebony. In other words if you 'lynch' with 4 votes out of 11, you could protect two people that Night if each got 4+ Ivory votes. Unsure how that changes things, maybe too much...

[LlamaFluff]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

[Jingle]

6x VT
2x Suicide Bomber
1x Scum Recruiter
1x Goon

The recruiter action is in-thread and public.

Balanced? Interesting?

[JasonWazza]

In no way would that be balanced.

Scum recruiter is a dunce and recruits early before it forces a win:

Random Townie: Suicide bomber's claim and pick a target
Suicide bomber 1: I'll kill the recruiter
Suicide bomber 2: I'll kill the recruited.

So basically it's a 2v8 with a day early ending if the recruiter survives.

[BBmolla]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?

[BwBurke]

I like the limited shot Tracker idea.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah scum will never "miss" a kill because it doesn't work like Doctor, but it should strengthen Town a bit to not lose their leader(s). I don't think I'm going to have time to run it tonight though, and it looks like smaller games are already having trouble filling.

Alternatively the cutoff for Ivory-Bulletproof could be plurality>=Ebony. In other words if you 'lynch' with 4 votes out of 11, you could protect two people that Night if each got 4+ Ivory votes. Unsure how that changes things, maybe too much...

Guh, forgot about endgame, where scum will reach 'unlynchable' status much quicker due to the Ivory votes. Since who is unkillable is publicly known, Town will still die every Night, so all we've done is strengthen scum in mountainous.

I really wish I could find the offsite Ebony/Ivory games Fiasco was talking about... I want to see what their actual setup was.

[BBmolla]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?

OH

Another idea

Make the Hider a Hider Ninja.

[Cheery Dog]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?

OH

Another idea

Make the Hider a Hider Ninja.

aka a normal hider

[Bicephalous Bob]

hiders can be tracked by targetting their target, confirming the target as town

[Antihero]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

What if we were to change it to a JOAT with 2-shot Track and 1-shot Vig? Or just to make it a limited shot Tracker?

The tracker's not the role that needs to be nerfed, it's the hider. The town performs better in tracker games because the vigs proved to be liabilities, not because the tracker is OPed.

Making the hider one-shot or turning it into a weak cop might balance it.

[Cheery Dog]

hiders can be tracked by targetting their target, confirming the target as town

As long as it is that way. The problem is hard boiled allowed the tracker to actually track the hider without going through that method.

But even fixing this obvious error is how the roles would normally work isn't going to fix scum winning everytime the player chooses vig.

[Hoopla]

So I think it is time to pull Hard Boiled as an approved open setup.

In games where town has picked a tracker in the tracker/vig slot, they are now 5-0. In games where they picked vig, they are now 0-3. Looking at the setup with the tracker, its getting close to a broken stage for town with coordination and cooperation from town PRs. Past runs have shown this, with town being able to string together close to forced wins, especially with an early scum lynch.

i agree. it's already been tweaked twice and was never really a good setup to begin with. trying to fine-tune it again for the sake of fine-tuning is a waste of time. most of the time the correct solution for a failing setup is scrapping the idea and starting again, rather than trying to shoehorn inelegant mechanics or roles into the design. it gets to a point where it no longer looks like the original game.

[RedCoyote]

Odds and Evens

1x Mafia Odd Night Goon (Only can kill odd nights)
1x Mafia Even Night Goon (Only can kill even nights)

7x Vanilla Town
1x Town Tracker

Oh, that sounds like fun! Let me know if you run it.

[hayatoBL]

I'm

Town

Mafia!!

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor
3 Vanilla Townies

* No factional communication
* Goon & Traitor do not know who their partners are.
* Mafia wins, when all Townies are dead.
* Town wins, when Goon is dead.
* Traitor is revealed in-thread after end of D1.
* Only Goon can Night Kill.
* Nightless after Night 1.
.

A lot of rules. But I would like to see a game where players have to convince others that they are scum for a change. Is there perhaps one already?

This one is probably imbalance, though. Advantage to scum, I think.