NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Snork]

4nx you think ThAd is scum?

[Snork]

AP why do you keep saying I was lost? I never said that and never felt that I was lost. Reevaluating the game != lost... If I was lost, I would certainly say so.

I'm not raging. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed at you because I do think you're town but I also think you're wasting my time. That's irritating. I don't understand why you are arguing with me over every read. If you disagree, then say that. Tell me I'm fucking wrong and that you think I'm totally missing the mark. But don't fucking waste my time asking me for my opinion when it doesn't seem like you actually want it.

[Snork]

And if it's all boiling down to "I think you're scum" just vote me already so I can stop wasting time trying to work with you.

[4nxi3ty]

ya ever since I've been the default push for him I've been like: maybe? and now that he give up on me for a Rach lynch I'm like O_O

I'm not entirely sure on ThAd, but I think it makes sense with snow's play - I'm sure snow is scum tho, just look at the way he comments on talah and luca.

[AngryPidgeon]

AP why do you keep saying I was lost? I never said that and never felt that I was lost. Reevaluating the game != lost... If I was lost, I would certainly say so.

I'm not raging. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed at you because I do think you're town but I also think you're wasting my time. That's irritating. I don't understand why you are arguing with me over every read. If you disagree, then say that. Tell me I'm fucking wrong and that you think I'm totally missing the mark. But don't fucking waste my time asking me for my opinion when it doesn't seem like you actually want it.

.............
I want your bipolar explanation because Bipolar is a scummy person and you listing him as town suddenly STOOD OUT TO ME. I want it so I can HAVE A BETTER READ ON YOU. All I've gotten is walls about RM (ok we can blame each other for how that happened I guess?) and complaining that you dont have time to right me a goddamn 4 sentence max paragraph about your Bipolar townread.

[AngryPidgeon]

right

write*

[Snork]

I'm back at my room now and fucking ISOing him.. like jesus dude. You're like a woman.

[AngryPidgeon]

Ok, lets stop bitching at each other over bullshit and actually wagon scum today then?

I need to sort: Snowstorm, matt, damon, dv.

Are you townreading matt at all?

[AngryPidgeon]

matt, damon

lol

[Snork]

Up to the point of this post, I wasn't sure about BPC at all. I was looking for something that gave me an idea of what he was after. He was a dead null.

Spoiler: BPC's catchup post

I'm just past page 40 on my catch up now. I guess I'll give a quick update on thoughts now.

I'm copying a lot of these notes from my notebook. I won't be going into too much of a wall, people just skim those, so I'm open to any and all questions if you need me to elaborate.

First 500 Posts:
I found peregrine to be very town acting, helpful and overall decent. I found Mister Rogers the same way, I liked his reads and they feel honest, and he's very contributive. My interaction with Zdenek was interesting, I wanna throw him into the town pile, but I'm not quite ready to. Talah felt very flip floppy, one second inferring he doubts the Fake Vig stuff, but then, in the same post, says I'm most likely town.

AngryPidgeon came out swingin' onto the quiet Pisskop, I like the idea of him getting lurkers to talk, not fully sure on him though. I did like Yates doubt of the Fake Vig thing, I found it to be a good perspective that wasn't mentioned yet, but his posts just became big one-shot walls of unhelpfulness, and I quickly started to find him scummy. Mastin is still null-scum, but I don't wanna comment until he's back and not dealing with shit.

DeasVeil hasn't posted too much, but I find him decently town. I don't like Thad's or Project Matt's liking of the Fake Vig, seems disgenuine and like they're trying to buy townie points, PM then was very on the fence, not taking a side on the matter.

Posts up to about 1000:
Peregrine continued to seem town for the same reasons to me. Same with Rogers. DeasV seemed to drop right off here, I doubt it's scummy, but my town feel is going away. I now like Angry Pidgeon's pushing a lot more, looking more town. I find Pisskop to be decently town acting, not particularly contributive in volume, but he keeps some discussion going.

Snork's entrance into the game was big and seemingly town, as time went on I began to question some of his stuff, I want to put him in my town pile, but I just can't yet. Snow still has barely said anything enough to post on, same with aptil. Zdenek also seemed to go away...

Thad moved from scum to null for me, I found him to be quite a bit more useful and contributive. Rach still hasn't done much, coasting, unvoting even though she said she hadn't caught up. Nero moved right into my scum pile, unhelpful in kind of an annoying way. Talah's drunk posting was funny, but I still think he's scum. The Oracle claim feels weak, and I don't like it. Yates kept on doing what he does, not changing my opinion of him.

Read List up to around Post 1000:
Town: Peregrine and Mister Rogers
Null-Town: DeasVeil, AngryPidgeon, Pisskop
Null: Snork, Snow, Aptil, Zdenek, Thad
Null-Scum: Luca, Anxiety, Mastin, Rach, Project Matt
Scum: Nero, Talah, Daman_Gant, Yates

I'm stopping here for the night I hope to finish tomorrow! Sorry for the absence. School, funeral, then more school was reason for being gone last week. Since Sunday been catching up on school work I missed and catching up on the ~1500 posts and I don't wanna skim too hard.

I really like this post because he's giving his impressions on people. It's NOT just IIoA. This post has actual opinions. Why he liked certain arguments and disliked others. IIoA is just that. Just information. No conclusions. This post does not lack conclusions. He states something someone did, whether he liked it or not, why, and whether he thinks that makes them town or scum. That's a very natural town thought process, imo. He even explained where certain reads

were

, where they moved, and why.

Then his reads list as of around post 1000. He's taking a very diplomatic approach, he shows his understanding of the context, namely Rach's bs, and talah's commentary up to that point. He's not opportunistically pushing bullshit just to get the lynch to happen, and he's not being all flakey about his reads either (like RM has been). He's committed his reads.

The entire post comes off really genuine, and shows a desire to be part of the game. Overall, its a very townie post. I liked his comments, and I liked where they led him. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant to the purpose and tone of the post, and where I think the motivation is coming from.

[Snork]

I also don't think he was "a scummy person". The posts prior to his catchup are completely null, with the exception of his reaction the fake vig, which I thought wasn't townie, but not necessarily scummy either. He was a non-entity due to V/LA. To call that player "scummy" is.. well, unreasonable. It doesn't make sense.

[SnowStorm]

[...] The two that stand out the most are RachMarie and SnowStorm. I was actually pretty surprised with his switch to Luca, tbh. [...]

Why did my switching from Talah to Luca negatively affect your read on me?

Well, both you and Snork voted him right after the whole counter wagon discussion started so its an EXTREMELY reasonable that someone

not privy to ya'lls thoughts

would think this especially in light of any other reasoning. Though you calaim there was OTHER reasoning for this vote so you can quote it.

Also why are you more concerned with Thad thinking this but not me?

Is it that reasonable? I mean, would we start a counter-wagon on someone just because they did it too? That's just dumb, especially when you're not taking our reads in consideration. Would we start a CW on ThAd if we did not have a scum read on him? Well, I wouldn't. So to think that we'd start a CW on ThAd just because he had started one too, not taking into account our reads on him, is not reasonable at all. Add to that that he did knew we had scum reads on him,

so it's not like he wasn't aware like you're suggesting

.

I don't think that I ever suggested that he wasn't aware...

I took it that you were suggesting that it was reasonable to think that someone [ThAd] not aware of our thoughts/reads would take that as the reason for our vote. (?)

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Eh, scum read. Feels quite half-assed. In conjunction with the part where reading through his ISO, the only real case he makes on ThAd is 675, and things like praising Zdenek's gambit are juxtaposed with not liking that ThAd is praising the Zdenek move. Then he's willing to ressurect this read when he also seems happy to lynch Luca or talah.

If I was so happy with Luca's and talah's lynches why would I vote ThAd?

UNVOTE: aptil

Town claim is town.

Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday.

Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Nero feels slightly town for pushing forward on his read. I'm actually thinking that I want to look at what happened after both leading wagons were claimed VT. Who tried to push the wagons toward potential unknown PRs.

As far as other analysis goes, I don't really have much insightful. Two wagons on known VTs, not much need for scum to stick their necks out. Day of travel means I've about hit the wall, but I'll see what I see when I look for momentum shifts after the claims tomorrow.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

And with regards to your post, how about sticking your neck on the line a bit with some scum reads rather than just trying to form a little group of buddies. In particular I'm always suspicious of someone who calls the person tunnelling them town without very good reason.

I mean by the bolded part that

they were also trying to actively look beyond the easy wagons

. I kind of get that aptil was playing to get off the vig shot and was planning to shoot any counter wagon to a town lynch, which explains the tone of his posts. It was still scummy play day one.

And why does that make them town in your eyes? I mean, it's not like they went after harder targets - Aptil is what I'd consider a perfect easy target. So while I'd understand your point if they were going after harder targets with good reason, I don't understand why you think there's town motivation in going after equally easy targets with not very good reasons.

[AngryPidgeon]

I also don't think he was "a scummy person". The posts prior to his catchup are completely null, with the exception of his reaction the fake vig, which I thought wasn't townie, but not necessarily scummy either. He was a non-entity due to V/LA. To call that player "scummy" is.. well, unreasonable. It doesn't make sense.

Fair enough. I sort of projected my scumread of him onto my expectations for other people. And I guess (ironically?) I disagree about your assessment but it makes sense to me at least.

[Snork]

Ok, lets stop bitching at each other over bullshit and actually wagon scum today then?

I need to sort: Snowstorm, matt, damon, dv.

Are you townreading matt at all?

I am not. Anymore. He's kind of null. DG I have been questioning my read there for a bit, and I am leaning more town on him. I can see where he's going with his posts. He definitely shows a motivation to scum hunt lately, and I'm starting to feel like he just has a kind of awkward way to his construction. I think that's originally where I got the feeling he was scummy in the beginning, but it hasn't changed despite people's reads on him changing all over the place. He doesn't really seem to care that he is being scumread. That's good. DV is town - that one I explained, but I can go through his ISO for specifics. Basically, I was scumreading him only reference to talah, which ended up a bust. Prior to that, I was townreading him, and taking talah out of the equation, I still like his posts.

Snowstorm is another ball of wax. I really liked his posts all of yesterday, up until the hop to Luca. That really took me by surprise and didn't fit with anything else he'd said. He was happy to push ThAd with me, but "compromised" on Luca? When they were tied up all the way to the hammer? It doesn't seem right.

p-edit: posts to read in a second.

[AngryPidgeon]

@PA: Read on Snork and Snowstorm?

[AngryPidgeon]

He doesn't really seem to care that he is being scumread. That's good.

I got the opposite impressson here (and in general about him, lol). I originally thought he just had a very focused?/self-aware? posting style and thought his opinions in general were townie. Starting to wonder if hes really just scum now. And

Spoiler:

In hindsight, this looks an awful lot like just assigning scum motivation to Thad's vote arbitrarily.

Well if something does not have town motivation then one should presume and hunt for scum motivation, don't you think?

My stance on ThAd right now is confused - but I think that's partially because he has a tone that will always leave me feeling uneasy but I think ultimately I return to my old read of him leaning town. I agree with you AP about his recent wall, which I thought read excellently.

I'm really struggling in this game now and I'd like to vote Rach but I just can't in good conscience. The only problem I have with Rach is the hop onto Luca's wagon, which was not great, but would've been a lot worse I think if Luca had flipped scum. I get that people also don't like her post justifying that, but I honestly don't mind it. It was a much attacked post, so she tried to explain it, and I dont' feel the explanation is awful.

I'm in a very bad place with this game right now, and I think that can only mean that scum are hiding in amongst the players I've been presuming town. Literally my only real scumread right now is 4nx and I consider that to be an unacceptable situation. I am working very hard to resolve it.

the fact that I felt that response to me mentioning him offhandedly seems like he certainly DOES care that hes being scumread.

[AngryPidgeon]

Err, accidentally a word or three. The fact I felt the need [to spoiler] that response.

[AngryPidgeon]

Well if something does not have town motivation then one should presume and hunt for scum motivation, don't you think?

I can see potential town motivation behind it though? Admiral doesn't want to lynch a townread. Votes a scumread. Mastin did the same shit. Snork and Snow did the same shit.

[Snork]

Yeah but look at WHAT he said. He's not defending himself the entire post. The majority of that post is his general opinion on

other players

. He shot off a one-line in response to your comment about him, and then moved on to what he thinks about other people. He's not even fighting you about it. He's just keeping on with what he was doing.

[AngryPidgeon]

hmm
VOTE: Snowstorm for now.

[SnowStorm]

vote: SnowStorm

fairly certain snow is attempting to tie himself to me by presenting an intentional wishywashy read: [...]

Why would I want to tie myself with you? What do you even mean with that? Why would I use "wishy-washy" reads to achieve that? And if you were so certain that I was attempting to tie myself to you, why didn't you wait for me do fulfill that attempt so that you'd have something more than just speculation to vote me for?

RAWRs cans I interject this rach detour?

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

probably

totally bussing. (how do I feign excitement about wagoning a buddy? "Let's Do It")

Like, seriously?

ya ever since I've been the default push for him I've been like: maybe? and now that he give up on me for a Rach lynch I'm like O_O

I'm not entirely sure on ThAd, but I think it makes sense with snow's play -

I'm sure snow is scum tho

, just look at the way he comments on talah and luca.

Are you?... Because I'm supposedly "attempting to tie myself to you with wishy-washy reads" and "bussing ThAd"? And on this same post you point out you're actually unsure about ThAd, which means you're accusing me of "totally bussing" someone you don't even think is scum?

[TheWayItEnds]

nightkills are largely WIFOM so AP's "that XD kill points to pisskop" is p dumb. You should know this 2012

Not really? NKs happen for a reason, and they usually point to something. It -can- be chalked up to Pr hunting, but Pisskop is scummy on his own accord and I see motive to kill Zd on top of that.

[snip]

P-edit: Fucking. Pisskop was scummy BEFORE the Zd kill. The Zd kill is more reason to vote him IMO, its not a fucking complete case on its own 2 legs.

And TheWayItEnd's entry feels genuine? His stance on Rogers makes a lot of sense and his engagement with Nero felt townie a little.
PA slot is still town although her reads are wack.

unvote TheWayItEnds

I really dont like this easy back down from AP. If PK was so scummy that the NK was only an additional reason to vote for PK then how did my 4 posts totally blank that? especially since the only thing that I brought up was the part that didn't stand up as a case on its own.

I mean, the vote was still bad, but letting it go over 4 posts feels worse.

Im saying Pisskop was Zd's favorite lynch for a long time. And Zd got scum-killed. Pisskop was a scummy person in the first place.

I mean, other than the part where Zd stopped pushing for a PK lynch somewhere near page 27 this all seems solid...

I notice we just sort of glossed over this too.^

BTW peeps

a Newbie game just ended and Luca and Joker were the scum and won

Newbie 1476 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38637

We had a Doc and a Cop (Doc died N 1), Cop was a newbie (Burn 209) who did not cop correctly. Instead of waiting til he got a guilty, he claimed cop on D 2 with an inno read on Notty, and lied that he had a cop clear on Luca. 3 person LYLO was Luca, myself, and Jake.

So yeah there was cause to see Luca as a scumspect on D 1 here in this game.

His play in that game was similar to the play in this game but I was not able to talk about it.

Of the two wagons I felt Luca was more likely to be scum. I really did not see Talah as scum. And no I am not guilty about my vote. I know that in the process (especially early on), that we will end up mislynching townies whilst trying to find scum. It is part of the game. I have often been mislynched usually on D 1, and yet we went on to win the game.

Rach. What. The Fuck. Is the point. Of these posts. Like, even if we disregard the parts where your explanation of the events make no sense or whatever.
If you aren't posting them because you feel guilty about your vote, then why are you posting this shit? You cant make Luca look scummy after he flipped fucking town.
Serious question.

AP cut him some slack he is a newbie and this is most definitely quite a list to start playing Mafia with. I would be more concerned if he did not suspect me at this point.

hahahahahaha.
Seriously though.
Funny post.

This IS me cutting slack.

Cases that involve "Player X lied -> they are scum" are typically wrong and often from scum.

Ew this post is bad.


... How are there 13 p-edit posts.

[AngryPidgeon]

I notice we just sort of glossed over this too.^

I don't think its a relevant point so I didnt bother responding to it.

[TheWayItEnds]

You don't think that you saying three times that ZD was killed because he was pushing for a PK lynch and then me pointing out that ZD stopped pushing for a PK lynch 43 pages before a lynch happened is relevant?

[AngryPidgeon]

You don't think that you saying three times that ZD was killed because he was pushing for a PK lynch and then me pointing out that ZD stopped pushing for a PK lynch 43 pages before a lynch happened is relevant?

No? When I saw the Zd flip I recalled him mostly voting you Yesterday (memorable because he sheeped a post of mine when he did it) and I skimmed his ISO previously, so your point wasn't news to me?

And re backdown: Consider it more of a temporary truce. Some of your entry content felt town to me so Id rather see where this goes before tunneling you. I actually did find your defense to be more likely from town.