NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Plessiez]

It's day 2. Deadline for the day is 13th April, 15:45. That's (expired on 2014-04-13 15:45:32).

Vote Count 2.4

RachMarie [3 votes] (Snork, TheWayItEnds, ThAdmiral)
SnowStorm [3 votes] (penguin_alien, 4nxi3ty, Angry Pidgeon)
TheWayItEnds [1 vote] (Yates)
penguin_alien [1 vote] (Nero Cain)
ThAdmiral [1 vote] (SnowStorm)
4nxi3ty [1 vote] (mastin2)

7 players are not voting

: {aptil, BipolarChemist, Damon_Gant, DeasVail, PeregrineV, projectmatt, RachMarie}

With

17

players alive it takes

9

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

Activity

Yates is V/LA.

[4nxi3ty]

That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

This is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying you are preparing false leads incase you flip. No where do I even remotely mention you're doing this to look town, that would be silly.

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on.

Yes I do think your post is a strong association tell yet that doesn't exactly change my read on ThAd, it is still weak.

Wait what? Since when have you had me as scum?
In fact I thought you recently implied I was town with:
So wait: you felt better about me when I was

pushing for your lynch

, rather than when I started pushing for someone else's?

I kept going back and forth on your posting D1, which is why I never brought anything up besides "guts undecided". D2 I expected you to pick up where you left off so your switch to Rach weirds me out. Mastin's comments does potentially make you town, only if Mastin is scum though. But I am not certain Mastin is scum or that all three of us were paint jobs. Basically I have a very weak scumread on you independently while I think a snowstorm scumflip makes you look worse and a mastin scumflip makes you look better.

[penguin_alien]

First, why are you answering something that was not adressed to you? Second I find it fascinating that you think my thought process is weirder than 4nx's (Actually, I'm not sure you do, but I'm assuming so because .context.). Third, do you actually think there's validity to 4nx's accusation? That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on. Tell me how that makes any sense.

First, this is forum Mafia, not an old school etiquette lesson. I can discuss anything brought up in the thread I damn well please, especially when it involves my top scum read. If I was answering questions on someone else's behalf, you *might* have a point. As it stands, you whining about me sticking my nose in just makes me more certain you're scum.

Second and third, yes, I do think there's validity to the idea of associating oneself with a town player as scum. And I see nothing wrong with him considering your behavior toward ThAd. If you flip scum, you'd better believe your interactions would be scrutinized. Had 4nxi3ty used the theory that you were bussing ThAd to justify voting ThAd, I'd have a problem with it. As it stands, nope.

You said you didn't like either the talah or the Luca wagons, hence the vote elsewhere. Some relevant posts (spoilered for length):

Spoiler: End of Day One

VOTE: talah.

I don't care for the meta. I don't think it's a very accurate point when it doesn't add to why he'd play like he has in this game.

Any evidence that talah is scum is present in this game. I think all that's wrong about his play has been pointed out by MR

and lost in between pointless discussion.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

Here you're free of talah doubts.

Someone else pointed out that all the effort that Talah made in that bru-ha-ha produced no townie contributions from Talah but yet the effort was there. Its just not right.

Exactly, we don't even need to go into particular arguments, talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments. That's not how you play as town.

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

Feeling good about the lynch.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

And yet.

VOTE: talah.

VOTE: Luca.

IDEK

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

And here you blame Luca for his lynch while saying now that you weren't happy about it.

[Yates]

Where are matt and pere? Or even bpc, for that matter?

Once again I'm not liking either wagon and I feel like scum is sitting back and laughing. TWIE is exactly where I'd expect to find scum on the RM wagon. Now I have to go look closer at 4nx.

[Snork]

I'm busy at the moment, but would like to respond to a few things I read this morning:

* ThAd agreeing with me on Rach and voting there did not go unnoticed, to whoever asked.

* The thought that AP might be scum crosses my mind all the time, but a lot of it is paranoia as I continually ISO him and can't find much that troubles me, plus the fact that he is questioning everything and it's pretty clear he's actually trying to figure things out, rather than pin somebody.

* I don't understand what the difference makes for me to go after Rach today, as opposed to yesterday. Yesterday, I wanted to lynch talah, who I was convinced was scum. Rach was also a strong scum read and independent of talah. Add to this, her horrible excuse about her Luca vote, and her shoddy explanation, strengthens this read, so yeah I want to lynch her. She's scum.

* Snowstorm would be a good choice as well, but I'm worried about PA being the one to push it. I've never seen MR before, but I've seen PA, so the fact that she still hasn't really done much analysis is troubling, since that's kind of... what she does as town. Of course I haven't discarded my town read on MR prior to the replace out; however, looking at some of Nero's points from yesterday other than the "posting too much" thing, he made some good points, and I am not happy with PA thus far. Edit: AND her snippy response above? Not really the same tone from street racer. At all. At. All.

I was townreading snow yesterday but his vote switch really bugs the fuck out of me. He was rallying hard for talah, only to switch when the wagons were tied? I don't get it.

More later.

[penguin_alien]

Heh, I let BRO be the snippy one when we hydra. Have you read any non-Street Racer games of mine to get this characterization of me? Because if you think I'm snippy here, I can point you to a couple of games where I've actually let loose. This? Is mild annoyance at being told what I can and can't comment on.

[Snork]

Yeah there was this other game with a bunch of video games where you were scum, in a different hydra, and you were snippy there.

[SnowStorm]

That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

This is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying you are preparing false leads incase you flip. No where do I even remotely mention you're doing this to look town, that would be silly.

I seriously have no idea of what you're accusing me of. You're saying now that I was/am preparing false leads in case I flip. Could you explain how I am/was doing that?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on.

Yes I do think your post is a strong association tell yet that doesn't exactly change my read on ThAd, it is still weak.
So what you mean to say is that if I do flip scum that ThAd is likely to be my partner? Which is something you can only analyze if you have on of our flips and that is totally irrelevant right now since you don't even suspect ThAd. And yet you're using as a valid point to call me scum.

[penguin_alien]

Yeah there was this other game with a bunch of video games where you were scum, in a different hydra, and you were snippy there.

Mini 1551 (Phoenix Down)
Micro 302

Enjoy!

[4nxi3ty]

@snow, see my post 1886 for examples ie: scum will intentionally take a wishwashy stance on someone so later town will go "why was he wishwashy here, buddies?"

not using it as a point to call you scummy, I have other reasons to think you are scum. Yet it is still relevant and worth bringing up to see how you two respond and if it holds any water. (not getting why you still think I don't suspect ThAd after just saying I have a weak scumread on him)

[SnowStorm]

First, why are you answering something that was not adressed to you? Second I find it fascinating that you think my thought process is weirder than 4nx's (Actually, I'm not sure you do, but I'm assuming so because .context.). Third, do you actually think there's validity to 4nx's accusation? That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on. Tell me how that makes any sense.

First, this is forum Mafia, not an old school etiquette lesson. I can discuss anything brought up in the thread I damn well please, especially when it involves my top scum read. If I was answering questions on someone else's behalf, you *might* have a point. As it stands, you whining about me sticking my nose in just makes me more certain you're scum.

Oh please... I wanted to know 4nx's answer, not yours, because your answer doesn't help me get a better understanding of where he's coming from and doesn't help me with my read on him! I'm not complaining that you commented on it, but you should have waited for 4nx to react first.

Second and third, yes, I do think there's validity to the idea of associating oneself with a town player as scum. And I see nothing wrong with him considering your behavior toward ThAd.

If you flip scum

, you'd better believe your interactions would be scrutinized. Had 4nxi3ty used the theory that you were bussing ThAd to justify voting ThAd, I'd have a problem with it. As it stands, nope.

Yeah, that's not what I asked. Do you think there's any validity

in this particular

accusation? Do you think 4nx has any reason to think that I was trying to associate myself with him and that I'd have a good scum motive to do so?

Now lets get to that "IF". Sure, if I flipped scum I'd expect my interactions to be scrutinized, but I have not flipped so using that as a reason to push for my lynch is just pure BS.

You said you didn't like either the talah or the Luca wagons, hence the vote elsewhere. Some relevant posts (spoilered for length):

Spoiler: End of Day One

VOTE: talah.

I don't care for the meta. I don't think it's a very accurate point when it doesn't add to why he'd play like he has in this game.

Any evidence that talah is scum is present in this game. I think all that's wrong about his play has been pointed out by MR

and lost in between pointless discussion.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

Here you're free of talah doubts.

Someone else pointed out that all the effort that Talah made in that bru-ha-ha produced no townie contributions from Talah but yet the effort was there. Its just not right.

Exactly, we don't even need to go into particular arguments, talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments. That's not how you play as town.

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

Feeling good about the lynch.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

And yet.

VOTE: talah.

VOTE: Luca.

IDEK

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

And here you blame Luca for his lynch while saying now that you weren't happy about it.

Ok, because you clearly didn't try to think of my posts in their original context: Between #1277 and #1483 are 206 posts, some of them made by talah. I felt better about him and switched to ThAd since he was still one of my top scum reads and other players were suspecting him too. The ThAd wagon never got more than 2 votes and we needed to get a lynch through, even if by then I thought they were more likely to be town no other lynch was happening. I switched to Luca because, I had been feeling better about talah and Luca had made some posts I didn't like, also:

[to Luca:]
Your interaction with talah earlier was pretty odd. Before that you were fine with not interfering with the lynch and leaving your fate in our hands. You were so passive it hurt. Suddenly you want to lynch talah and you're not as fine with your lynch as you were before. Your sudden change in behavior is pretty alarming. Besides, I have been feeling better about talah and I think that if he really is town that it will become more evident as the game progresses and that he'll be easier to read because he's no longer distracted by MR and posts more than you do. I think that if I let you live that you'll just go back to lurking, placing odd-looking votes and just get lynched anyway, which sucks if you're town; and if you're scum we're better off lynching you today.

Actually, I think the reasons why I voted Luca over talah in the end were pretty clear. I don't see how they're so hard to understand for some people.

[AngryPidgeon]

damn right I don't have flakes thanks to my new shampoo.

Head and Shoulders is on par with the Birth Control Pill as far as modern miracles.

Spoiler: This looks like town frustration

Um Thad I moved on, but you bring it back up, the other game JUST ended and he turned out to be SCUM in that game not town. JS

Holy fuck.



What about "at that time" do you not get?
YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM AT THAT TIME BECAUSE HE HAD A CLAIMED INNOCENT ON HIM.
WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

Ok, do you understand now?

I don't think you're this stupid so I can only assume you are intentionally missing the point.

1777 is pretty bad. How does one 'blow' a predecessor's towncred. Don't your reasons for thinking Mister Rogers strongly town still apply? Or does PA's lack of posting make the slot scummy?

PA was lurking since replacing in, so coasting. She isn't anymore although I disagree with a few of her reads (and reasons for them). I don't see how you are so bewildered by the concept of a replacement being less town than the predecessor.

AP, why not actually wait and see whether I end up voting for PA before telling me that's what you think I'll do? Also, doesn't the fact that I've expressed lots of interest in voting for you mean I don't need anyone else to vote for? Unless I don't want to vote for you because we're scumbuddies! I have the answer!!!!

Wow. Then do it instead of putting words in my mouth and blowing meaningless smoke around.

Snork, why do you not consider that AP could be scum?

I would understand paranoia about me since Im the king of paranoia, but I'm pretty obviously town this game? I dunno What are you hoping to accomplish with this question?

[SnowStorm]

@snow, see my post 1886 for examples ie: scum will intentionally take a wishwashy stance on someone so later town will go "why was he wishwashy here, buddies?"

not using it as a point to call you scummy, I have other reasons to think you are scum. Yet it is still relevant and worth bringing up to see how you two respond and if it holds any water. (not getting why you still think I don't suspect ThAd after just saying I have a weak scumread on him)

That's just a dumb reason to call someone scum. Scum can have all kind of reads on town and they'll all be analyzed if the scum flips and after it flips. Your reasons to scum read me are purely speculative and subjective and could be applied to any read by anyone else.

I'm really having trouble trying to understand your push on me.

[SnowStorm]

Spoiler: This looks like town frustration

Um Thad I moved on, but you bring it back up, the other game JUST ended and he turned out to be SCUM in that game not town. JS

Holy fuck.



What about "at that time" do you not get?
YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM AT THAT TIME BECAUSE HE HAD A CLAIMED INNOCENT ON HIM.
WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

Ok, do you understand now?

I don't think you're this stupid so I can only assume you are intentionally missing the point.

No it doesn't.

[aptil]

I used my 1-shot vig abilities to kill Talah . That is why i did not care about who it was at the end of the day because we were very close to the deadline and i had made up my mind to shoot the survivor if the person lynced out was town .

unvote

No reason not to believe him at this point.
If there are further multikills he's probably an sk and we'll deal with him if and when.

vote: rachmarie

if you do not believe me then you should not unvote me .
VOTE: The Admiral

[AngryPidgeon]

D2 I expected you to pick up where you left off so your switch to Rach weirds me out.

He left off on aptil though, right (that was the source of some Thad drama)? Aptil claimed 1-shot Vig and is essentially not getting lynched Today (or ever unless there continues to be multiple kills every night).

Or even bpc, for that matter?

I vaguely recall BPC requesting replacement? Am I misremembering?

Now lets get to that "IF". Sure, if I flipped scum I'd expect my interactions to be scrutinized, but I have not flipped so using that as a reason to push for my lynch is just pure BS.

This feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons and upset about it. Thats not even most of the case on, you more just a sidenote about Admiral?

@aptil: He said he DID believe you.

[AngryPidgeon]

Alright PA, lets talk. I know Ive sort of engaged Damon on this point anyhow, but why is mastin town for going off the leading wagons but you don't think Snow is? There were like 4-5 people starting 3rd wagons or sitting off the main ones in the first place, so why is mastin town for doing something anti-town and everyone else is meh?

[SnowStorm]

Now lets get to that "IF". Sure, if I flipped scum I'd expect my interactions to be scrutinized, but I have not flipped so using that as a reason to push for my lynch is just pure BS.

This feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons and upset about it. Thats not even most of the case on, you more just a sidenote about Admiral?

What's the case on me, AP? Please explain it to me. Don't forget to mention what you find so compelling about it that made you vote me. And spare me the shitty clichés.

[penguin_alien]

Alright PA, lets talk. I know Ive sort of engaged Damon on this point, but why is mastin town for going off the leading wagons but you don't think Snow is? There were like 4-5 people starting 3rd wagons or sitting off the main ones in the first place, so why is mastin town for doing something anti-town and everyone else is meh?

Attitude toward the leading wagons. Mastin took the attitude of not wanting to lynch Luca/talah on principle; I don't see that from SnowStorm. More like he was hoping to avoid the wagons altogether.

I'm not writing mastin off as obvtown or anything, but I'm getting the right blend of emotion and grandstanding without trying to work people like a puppeteer to make me think she's town.

[SnowStorm]

Alright PA, lets talk. I know Ive sort of engaged Damon on this point, but why is mastin town for going off the leading wagons but you don't think Snow is? There were like 4-5 people starting 3rd wagons or sitting off the main ones in the first place, so why is mastin town for doing something anti-town and everyone else is meh?

Attitude toward the leading wagons. Mastin took the attitude of not wanting to lynch Luca/talah on principle; I don't see that from SnowStorm.

More like he was hoping to avoid the wagons altogether.

How could you get that from my posts when I strongly pushed for talah's lynch at a point? What do you think about ThAd then, who did avoid the wagons until the end of the day?

[Nero Cain]

Alright PA, lets talk. I know Ive sort of engaged Damon on this point, but why is mastin town for going off the leading wagons but you don't think Snow is? There were like 4-5 people starting 3rd wagons or sitting off the main ones in the first place, so why is mastin town for doing something anti-town and everyone else is meh?

Mastin took the attitude of not wanting to lynch Luca/talah on principle; I don't see that from SnowStorm. More like he was hoping to avoid the wagons altogether.

lol no

But why does that make her town?

I have a tendency to think really bad pushes usually make a player town. I'm not a big Snork fan at all. I'm also a little bit worried that he was avoiding the Luca lynch yesterday 'cause his scumreads were voting Luca but today when his scumread you hops on he doesn't seem to care much and all he's said is "he's taken notice". PA is really naïve or scum is she thinks Snork couldn't fake that [his aggression/pushing strongly on Rach] as scum. I'm kinda worried about you and thinkin' maybe I was wrong. I don't really didn't like your 1924 'cause instead of just asking why I had a town read on Rach you attempted to make me look scummy an undermine my derail of the Rach lynch and that doesn't look real townie too me. I also feel like it was super obvious that that I was town reading her today and I can't understand why you'd think my comments YESTERDAY had anything to do with TODAY. This seems deceitful. Like any scumtell, its not 100% but you shadowing Snork on his reasoning for a Rach lynch is iffy.

[AngryPidgeon]

Attitude toward the leading wagons. Mastin took the attitude of not wanting to lynch Luca/talah on principle; I don't see that from SnowStorm. More like he was hoping to avoid the wagons altogether.

I'm not writing mastin off as obvtown or anything, but I'm getting the right blend of emotion and grandstanding without trying to work people like a puppeteer to make me think she's town.

Ehhhh. Im concerned with mastin's lack of presence in this game tbh. Swooping in to call both wagons town and offer a passing "oops, oh well" about not showing up in time to save them is

The stream of thoughts in her posts looked like town-mastin, but Im realllly not comfortable with writing her off as town. I see your point though.

@Nero: I can sort of see a bad push from a scum player making someone more likely town, but a bad push in general?

[AngryPidgeon]

What's the case on me, AP? Please explain it to me. Don't forget to mention what you find so compelling about it that made you vote me. And spare me the shitty clichés.

That you are concerned with having a case on you that you can refute , irony I know.

Anxiety is calling you scummy for being overly on the fence about him (and while I don't know if I agree with his conclusion about you trying to connect yourself there, I agree that your Anxiety read felt fake).

PA is voting you because of your hopping around from Talah/Luca at the end of the day and your attempt at wagoning Admiral looking like a weak attempt to not be off the ML wagon of the Day.

I didn't have a great reason for suspecting you when I voted, but your response to being wagoned reads desperate and OMGUSy.

[AngryPidgeon]

Why would I want to tie myself with you? What do you even mean with that? Why would I use "wishy-washy" reads to achieve that? And if you were so certain that I was attempting to tie myself to you, why didn't you wait for me do fulfill that attempt so that you'd have something more than just speculation to vote me for?

This is just a shotgun spray of questions at Anxiety that are all moreorless asking the same thing. And you asking why he didn't wait longer just feels like discrediting since you don't even claim to know WHY hes suspecting you in the first place.

Like, seriously?

Reads fake.

Well guess what? I wasn't happy with those wagons and I'd have much rather lynch ThAd (a strong scum read of mine) than Luca or talah. The fact that I moved my vote away from those wagons should tell you that. Otherwise I ask you, what would be my scum-motivation to move away from the talah wagon which I had strongly pushed at a point to ThAd?

"You can't PROVE that Im scum". This attitude is really scummy, and you moving your vote doesn't make you town, the actual fuck?

[...] The two that stand out the most are RachMarie and SnowStorm. I was actually pretty surprised with his switch to Luca, tbh. [...]

Why did my switching from Talah to Luca negatively affect your read on me?

People have been talking about mastin's vote-hop being potentially scummy and also Thad and RMs. The defense you made holds equally for Thad who you consider scummy: Thad disliked both wagons, so clearly he is town for voting aptil. What is his scum motivation for voting aptil??

I seriously have no idea of what you're accusing me of. You're saying now that I was/am preparing false leads in case I flip. Could you explain how I am/was doing that?

Jesus, he already quoted it which is what STARTED this whole debate and Anxiety's point is REALLY not that difficult to understand. This looks like you are feigning ignorance.

So what you mean to say is that if I do flip scum that ThAd is likely to be my partner? Which is something you can only analyze if you have on of our flips and that is totally irrelevant right now since you don't even suspect ThAd. And yet you're using as a valid point to call me scum.

So is Anxiety scum or wrong? Im not seeing a town reaction to Anxiety here, you look like you just want to get the case off you and have no interest in determining Anxiety's alignment.

Oh please... I wanted to know 4nx's answer, not yours, because your answer doesn't help me get a better understanding of where he's coming from and doesn't help me with my read on him! I'm not complaining that you commented on it, but you should have waited for 4nx to react first.

Yet, you still haven't come to any conclusion about Anxiety's push so Im calling BS on this.

[Nero Cain]

@Nero: I can sort of see a bad push from a scum player making someone more likely town, but a bad push in general?

Just 'cause a player is town doesn't mean they are right, it only means their intentions are pure.