Tales of You (Endgame)

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cephrir, why did MastinSSK using a lot of eeee's annoy you? You did the same thing here as town in response to MafiaSSK.

What annoys me is the uselessness of repeatedly linking to my posts, saying she doesn't like them, and pretending doing that enough counts as a reason to scumread me. She seems pretty convinced we're scum, but isn't pushing me except by stating that opinion over and over and over again. The Es bit is just sass.

[CarbonFiber]

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

What changed since Tales of Vesperia where you were not confident in your ability to read Tammy based off of your Red Wine misread. How are you confident now?
~ F-16

[Titan]

Okay, I'll wait to see what your thoughts are when you have the time and are running at full speed. And your cat is adorable, there's no way he is scum.

~ F-16

I know isn't he! And he's totally sweet and could never be scum. I'd say he's even sweeter than me (though that's near impossible)!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

What changed since Tales of Vesperia where you were not confident in your ability to read Tammy based off of your Red Wine misread. How are you confident now?
~ F-16

Tales of Vesperia happened. There's a very strong cross-current in this game from Vesperia and she's in the vortex. The cross-current is mostly comprised of her misreads of DeaconBlues (me/bork) initially, and her ongoing misread of NachoPeng in that game. It's affected her play and her approach to getting reads, and it's affected bork and me, and possibly Nacho if he ever shows up.

And more importantly the interpretations and misinterpretations of those crosscurrents by other players has been very informative.

The main niggle in my Mastin read is that she apparently didn't see how adjustment for those misreads was impacting this game at first, if at all. It was almost like there were two separate town games going on in Vesperia - the neighborhood-town and the vig/lovers-switch town.

[CarbonFiber]

Can you define "cross-current" because I have no idea what it means in a mafia context.

Regarding the two separate town games, are you referring specifically to the QTs or did you feel that the players were thinking along separate game interpretations in the thread?

What reads did you get out of the interpretations and misinterpretations of the game or "cross-currents" as you say. Who did you feel have the right and wrong interpretations and did that affect your read on them one way or another?

~ F-16

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Can you define "cross-current" because I have no idea what it means in a mafia context.

Once in a while, instead of a dial back to zero, the interactions from one game's town impact the starting state of another game. That has happened in this game. Vesperia isn't the only game that has impacted this game's starting state, but it's had a rather strong impact, maybe because of the players involved.

Regarding the two separate town games, are you referring specifically to the QTs or did you feel that the players were thinking along separate game interpretations in the thread?

The latter.

What reads did you get out of the interpretations and misinterpretations of the game or "cross-currents" as you say. Who did you feel have the right and wrong interpretations and did that affect your read on them one way or another?

I was initially concerned about Mastin because it seemed like she wasn't taking Vesperia into account in looking at how Tammy was interacting with bork and Nacho. But, I wasn't taking into account how bifurcated town was in that game due to role interactions. I still feel like Mastin should have been more aware, but given where her focus was in Vesperia, it's not too surprising that she wasn't.

I got townleaning reads on Lord Business and Clyton, though my Clyton read has lost a little shine. It was also interesting to see how RBD and Mac reacted based on how their starting points have been affected by past games.

You watched Vesperia from the spectator seats. Do you think my impressions about how these two games are entangled are wrong?

[CarbonFiber]

I think your expectations based on past games differ slightly from mine. For instance, I don't particularly care too much if someone fooled me in a past game and make it a point to delay a read on them although I sometimes do. It depends on a lot of other factors that influence that read. You on the other hand generally make it a point to delay reads that you've been wrong about before. That's why I misread your paranoia of Tammy in Tales of Vesperia as you faking it because if I had been in your position in Red Wine, I wouldn't have given it much thought. I was in the spectator QT of Red Wine thinking Tammy could be town although I had the rest of the scumteam pegged. That didn't affect my future reads on Tammy at all. In Z-mafia, I was confident in my townread. In Pick Your Poison, I was overwhelmingly confident. Although part of it could be because I was skimming the Red Wine game without thinking much and missed huge parts of it completely (especially her reaction to Cabd and how Empire lied about it being town) which I tend to do when I spectate compared with analyzing and re-analyzing the game as a player. I think your worldview is different in that you expect some paranoia for misreads. I believe that is why you felt something was off based on my early townread of you in NY169 because I townread Sangres at a few points in Micro 252 (although to be fair, Nacho's contribution to that townread was massive). It is probably the mirror image of the reason I initially misread you while spectating Tales of Vesperia because I figured if Tammy was town, it would be obvious so why would you be paranoid over Red Wine. Do you think that our different approaches there was a factor in your initial hesitation in your NY169 read of me?

So, I am not really sure what to make of Mastin's initial post to Tammy. It is possible his not taking it into account could be alignment relevant or merely something he missed, or something he did remember but thought that the games weren't connected. I too had a townleaning read on LordBusiness for his uninformed reaction although it has gone a bit stale now.

~ F-16

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Most of my hesitation in NY 169 was due to never having had to actually develop a read based on your play before. There was other stuff, but I think that was the main factor.

The way you build your game around Tammy is sort of how I used to (and still tend to) build my game around my read of Nacho and then work outward through the player list from there. But, I've misread him several times in the last few months, so I've quit pressuring myself to develop a quick read of him.

[Titan]

(Iirc That was my reaction to ffery, and I was actually telling the truth of how I prefer to play games. I'm extremely adaptable in games, malleable and moody. I won't always be a leader directing the game. If someone else steps into that role, I step back into a more evaluative role. UNLESS I have strong scum reads and I feel like I'm right, then I tend to push ahead. much of how I act and interact has to do with my reads, how I feel about my reads, how I feel my impact on the game is, what's going on in the game, how I feel my standing in the game is, and my mood.)

[CarbonFiber]

What do you mean by me "building my game" around Tammy? You've mentioned this before but as far as I recall, I spent plenty of time reading several players in the game. I think you've mentioned this phrase before with regard to Bert but I am not quite sure what you are referring to. As far as developing quick reads, I try to develop reads on players easily readable so I can work with them. If someone I work well with is hard to read (like Nacho), I sometimes invert that like in NY169 where I made that deal although I decided that's probably a bad idea.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

(Iirc That was my reaction to ffery, and I was actually telling the truth of how I prefer to play games. I'm extremely adaptable in games, malleable and moody. I won't always be a leader directing the game. If someone else steps into that role, I step back into a more evaluative role. UNLESS I have strong scum reads and I feel like I'm right, then I tend to push ahead. much of how I act and interact has to do with my reads, how I feel about my reads, how I feel my impact on the game is, what's going on in the game, how I feel my standing in the game is, and my mood.)

I know, that's why I only use it to sort you one way: town if you are a leader and null if you are not and try to read you some other way (as opposed to town/scum). I generally have to read more deeply into your play if you are not leading like in Z-mafia it was obvious why you were not because Nacho was doing that job quite well and RedCoyote did a really good job hiding which made most of us lack confident scumreads on that second day.
~ F-16

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What do you mean by me "building my game" around Tammy? You've mentioned this before but as far as I recall, I spent plenty of time reading several players in the game. I think you've mentioned this phrase before with regard to Bert but I am not quite sure what you are referring to. As far as developing quick reads, I try to develop reads on players easily readable so I can work with them. If someone I work well with is hard to read (like Nacho), I sometimes invert that like in NY169 where I made that deal although I decided that's probably a bad idea.
~ F-16

Your read of Tammy seemed like your highest priority in NY 169, and it seemed/seems the same here. Read priority is part of it, but from there you aggressively townbloc based on her reads, and in NY169 you did so by excluding players (mainly Mara/Cabd, who were bleeding PR tells) who didn't agree with you about her and that she was scumreading because of their push on her. You scumread them and I think at one point on day 1 were trying to drum up a wagon on them.

Anyway, I may be seeing parallels that aren't really all that strong here.

[Titan]

(In ny169 I thought it was a fairly good chance that maraca were actually masons even as I was pushing them, but I also thought they could be gambiting. The tone of both could have been one or the other.)

[CarbonFiber]

My read on Mara/Cabd was a massive disaster I don't even want to be reminded of and basically helped Nacho grab massive towncred from whiteknighting. But you are probably right that I make some reads a priority. I was already somewhat suspicious of Maraca. I picked up on their fake-claim much later and thought it likely that they were not fake-claiming a PR, just their partner, that was what I told Cabd I might explain later on. But I probably should refine the way I townbloc to eliminate mistakes like NY169 and I am trying to work towards that.
~ F-16

[Titan]

So, I think fox and hound are likely town. I was waiting to see what DV would post because though I'm not great at reading DV, I've had more experience reading him. Cephrir isn't dropping those super strong town tells like in hard boiled when he was my strongest town read, but I still feel fairly good about him. There are a couple moments when I worried about manipulation but he feels more like the way he interacted with me as town than when he was scum and made sure to fake paranoia of me here and there. Likewise, dv's posts feel pretty natural. He feels a whole lot like empires swag town game than the games I've seen him as scum. Idk people tend to suspect him when he's town, but he feels like DV.

[orcinus_theoriginal]

this is me hauling my lazy ass out of mish mash

also i will actually post tonight

[CarbonFiber]

I felt DV in Swagtown was more aggressive and on the attack than solidifying townreads so that threw me off for a while. There is less pushing of scumreads here. But I also read one of DV's scumgames very closely and he was quite pushy and opportunistic there but in a different way. I like most of the content they provided and I had a few moments of paranoia but I told FT that I always read Cephrir as scum and his job is to quell my paranoia whenever I present it if he genuinely believed that Fox was town (he does). I even linked him to Red Wine and NY169 just to make absolutely sure he is aware of how good Cephrir's scumgame is and he emphatically answered that he had as massively strong town so I feel pretty good about our slot's read on them overall.
~ F-16

[Titan]

To be fair cephrir had a much better scum game in faradays upick than in red wine.

[CarbonFiber]

I am hoping to put them aside as town but I'll probably end up linking it for FT at some point. Which posts of theirs concerned you regarding the manipulation?
~ F-16

[Titan]

Just sheep us and hawk could do something and so could pere.

I'm afraid that right now what concerns me about manipulation could be in my head as they're the same issue I had with you. They concern my mastin read. Do you remember in vesperia when nacho was trying to talk sense in me concerning my blind trust of greyice? Part of that was because I had no concerns of being manipulated though it's in my nature to feel that way. (I'm serious about me scum hunting attacks and defenses of me. Sometime I just don't voice all my concerns). So I did wonder but now I'm rambling because it's late and I'm near passing out but I think I was just being cross eyed.

[CarbonFiber]

What do you think of ffery's latest posts? I have a townlean but I am not as certain as I was in NY169 partly because I know there are a lot of things she can't fake when scum and was hoping to see if something pops up that'll help me know with certainty.
~ F-16

[Lord Business]

Posting to avoid a prod, my apologies but I am going to be very limited on my time over the weekend.

Will not be V/LA as hoping to grab some time back for this and some proper input again.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Regarding MastinSSK, I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from (and this is my fault). By 'look how town I am', I don't mean the arrogance. I mean that many parts of their posts feel fabricated in order to look town without there being any other point to it. This is not something I've felt about Mastin at least in my other games with her.

What do you make of his early certainty in townreads and choices of players to townread for various reasons?
~ F-16

The certainty is something that I feel could come from Mastin as either alignment. I don't really get much from the choices of townreads either. You could be right that some of the choices were deliberate, but I'm not actually sure if scum use things such as influence as reasons for their reads (but if you do this as scum then my point has become invalid). For me, at least, my reads when scum are more influenced by what I think I can most convincingly fake than anything else.

~~

I also hope to be pushing scumreads more when I have less going on. (Only 1 more day!! )

[Elementalhawk]

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

In what frame of mind did this "classic" scum-tell make sense to you? We aren't playing a "classic" style. We are a hydra. I feel like MastinSSK is scum, Dice feels like you are scum, I made the first vote, we haven't come to a consensus about changing the vote so he decided to post some of his early reads. Sounds to me like you are lining up lynches here.

Because playing if I was scum without my role PM would be basically cheating, since I'd be playing as town without the bias of my alignment, essentially.

Is this a hidden rule I missed somewhere? Isn't this what you aim to accomplish as scum anyway?

So my meds really aren't working

Why would you feel the need to bring this up? Also, what is an MD post?

I am extremely lost in this game, and I blame the overabundance of meta-references that I don't understand/have time to go research. I feel like I am playing a game with a gazillion inside jokes.

Someone talk to me.

~Hawk

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I am extremely lost in this game, and I blame the overabundance of meta-references that I don't understand/have time to go research. I feel like I am playing a game with a gazillion inside jokes.

Someone talk to me.

Preacher, meet choir. Ffery's keeping me afloat this game, but I'm still looking for scum almost exclusively within her town reads.

An ye want something to do while your other head is at the tiller, do me a favour and have a gander at everyone's interactions with Fox & Hound. See anything off, or am I just mad?