NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[AngryPidgeon]

And this comment hit the right notes:

-On 4nxi3ty
He's logical, and I've seen him before, but something about his posts unsettle me. Watching.

Have you been posting things that should unsettle people?

[4nxi3ty]

nah but I tend to make playstyle changes between games so I can see where that's coming from.

[Damon_Gant]

Ok, I think I've kinda picked out the main gist of my problem with SnowStorm recently. What it is is this shocking flip for being very much an offensive player to suddenly very defensive indeed - all triggered by not very many votes. Look at this ISO, and I think you'll notice the split in tone between posts before ~ #35 and those after. I don't believe that defensiveness in itself is a scumtell - I think it's a trait. When a player starts to exhibit defensiveness quite dramatically and so suddenly, that's when my suspicions arise.

The other main problem I have with SnowStorm is this post yesterday - where he moves his vote from talah to ThAd

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Which isn't too bad by itself but when you consider that the post directly before was a post all about how talah was scum and just a couple of posts before that he said:

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

it just makes the ThAd vote feel really unnatural to me.

My vote is looking for a home and for now I'm happy with this.

Vote: SnowStorm

[penguin_alien]

TheWayItEnds, any opinions on people besides RachMarie, who's a) generally an easy target, and b) likely town here? Would also love to hear what you like about the arguments for my being scum. Cheerleading my detractors is a pretty safe position given your own lack of voting me.

You know what? I do. I got unexpectedly busy yesterday and never got around to it. Gonna read the last couple of pages and post some just for you.

Yay, presents for me! Looking forward to it.

I mean really. If I said PA is scum for some arbitrarily shitty reason like shes posting too much, would that make her town?

Given that it's me and I never post too much, I'd want some of what you were smoking...

As far as mastin goes, I'm not overly worried about her engaging with my suspicion. I expect some indignant rebuttal whenever she posts again, possibly with a side order of, 'but I don't repeat strategies!' WIFOM. But the posts she made really feel like her scum game. Which slots in well with her tone in Open 541, where I was scum with her for a day or two, and even some of Charmed that I followed as back-up mod. As far as her jumping on SnowStorm, if she wants to bus, who am I to interfere?

You say mastin isn't scum if I am, which is a pretty accurate assessment of what would follow if I was scum, given that I'm not bus-happy, especially when it comes to more potentially influential teammates. But thought exercise: say I am town. Your knee-jerk read on mastin, please.

[AngryPidgeon]

Given that it's me and I never post too much, I'd want some of what you were smoking...

I did say that reason would be both arbitrary and shitty

[TheWayItEnds]

So, things that happened that I haven't touched on:

Opening ThAd wall is A plus wall material. I wasn't liking ThAd day 1 near deadline but this wall is everything I wished it could be and more. ThAd looks waaaaay townier than I thought he was yesterday, considering that he was in my shortlist of lynch candidates at the start of the day. I don't know how I feel about the hard tunnel on RM (I realize how stupid this sounds coming from me, but w/e I'll get to that later). But so far I think he stays off my lynch today pile.

Rach is ughhh. Literally nothing she has done all game makes sense to me. I don't even want to lynch her as much as I just want her to answer my question so that for 1 moment I could understand where she was coming from.
I still would like her to tell me what the town benefit to posting a link to another game to help meta a player who's already dead is, because I don't understand how that helps me catch scum. And if it doesn't help me catch scum, and she says it isn't because she feels guilty about her vote, I dont know how it's relevant. But since we're moved on, and I'm not getting an answer, I will accept Nero's answer because at least there's something that could be construed as a logical flow there. She can go in the "I don't know what the fuck to do with you" pile with Mastin (for different reasons). Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if this slot was lynched, but really... just ugghh.

AP is waaaaay less town than I thought he was yesterday. It seems like every page there's another post from AP that just screams "not town". I would have bought "I'm obviously town" yesterday but today.... I'm not seeing it. Would lynch.

Snork was in my top 3 town from yesterday along with MR and ZD and still looks pretty fucking town today imo. Again, Rach makes zero sense, but I don't know if that makes her scum as much as Snork thinks so, but whatever. Would not consider lynching.

Nero is super town today. Replaces ZD in my top 3 town list. I really like that his reads list is quite different than most lists, gives a lot of his posts a fresh look feel. Would not consider lynching.

Snowstorm is interesting. I don't like a lot of what hes said today, but i do really like post 1980.

ProjectMatt's list of reads is the most useless thing ever. He might has well just said I agree with the general thread consensus on people who are town and don't have any reads of my own. Super awful only post today, not much yesterday, would lynch.
Yates....is probably still slightly more town that scum, but only based off of day 1. Today he just reads lazy. I get that he cant type much, but it seems like hes really only interested in things that involve my slot.

Mastin is .... But the less good I feel about AP, the less good I feel about Mastin for reasons that would be hard to explain. Wait and see on this slot i guess.

4nx came in on the short list of people id lynch today... and i guess sorta looks better. He has posts I like (snowstorm posts) and posts I really dont like. For example, claiming that you make playstyle changes between games after calling Mastin out because "shes seen your scum game" feels really disingenuous back to back. Would probably still lynch.

DV, DG, Aptil (barring claim), PV all have essentially nothing worth commenting on today.

Which leaves us with PA. PA is.... still quite town. Still in my top 3 town reads. I don't remember calling this slot scum but I think I must have based on the reaction PA had towards me liking a vote on the slot (which I suppose I could go further into but at the same time would rather not based on how little I got from it). Would not lynch.
THE TLDR READS LIST

SUPER TOWNS
Snork
PA
Nero
(My town reads dont like each other )

SUPER SCUM
AngryPidgeon
Matt
Snow?
4nx?

WHAT IS THIS I DONT EVEN
Mastin
Rach
Other people are varying degrees of Meh.
I think that covers it, I'm sure someone will let me know if it doesn't.

5 P-edits isnt bad.

[AngryPidgeon]

You say mastin isn't scum if I am, which is a pretty accurate assessment of what would follow if I was scum, given that I'm not bus-happy, especially when it comes to more potentially influential teammates. But thought exercise: say I am town. Your knee-jerk read on mastin, please.

Town? I don't feel good about calling mastin anything right now.

Posts have looked loosely town to me, but mastin needs to start showing up and talking to me more.

[AngryPidgeon]

Snow/TWIE team calling it now. That awkward chainsaw/bus is just too much.

[TheWayItEnds]

haha... i guess half of my snow thoughts got deleted and never replaced with the rewording I wanted. w/e Obviously the bottom line is he does end up on the lynch block. But as a maybe.

[TheWayItEnds]

You'll notice he's the only one up there on my TLDR LIST OF READS that doesnt have a lynch conclusion in the top section. And is also really short.

[TheWayItEnds]

So the SnowStorm read should say:

Snowstorm is Snowstorm is interesting. I don't like a lot of what hes said today, but i do really like post 1980. I did, however find myself siding with both 4nx and ThAd more in their respective dealings today even though I slightly agreed more with Snow in Snow V ThAd yesterday(dat wall tho). SS was a leaning scum read yesterday and ends up looking slightly worse today. I'd probably be okay lynching him, but I'd rather lynch my other reads first currently.

[RachMarie]

Stepping in for a moment, before going to lay down again.

Those who are confused by me:

Just wait a bit and it will make more sense, I promise.
One thing I am sure of is that I want to read more ISOs
At this time I am pretty good on my town reads being right.
Trying to narrow down the rest of the field and find scum.



I was reading Pisskop's ISO who replaced him? Because I am not liking what I see so far in that slot.

[TheWayItEnds]

Hi I'm Pisskop.

[RachMarie]

oh ok that makes it easier then I will read through your ISO and compare it to his.

[SnowStorm]

All edginess aside, I really don't get the sense that you're clear on who's who between me and AP. Which, yeah, AP vs. PA is maybe-kinda weird when we're both scum reading you, but you accused me (PA, female) of interfering with your 4nxi3ty reading process (which I still maintain is part of the large game process--what you post is fair game for everyone to comment on, and I wasn't feeding 4nxi3ty answers) and I suspect that your burden of proficiency argument was intended to be used against AP (male).

I'm perfectly aware of who's who, I just mixed up the acronyms. -.-

My continued problem with SnowStorm is that I could vaguely see that if he thought he was being attacked with no arguments, yeah, that's annoying as any alignment. But the tenor of his responses when confronted with actual reasons is denial. Like only cases that he approves of have merit. Which I suspect would number zero.

If I am saying something I know to be false is false, is it still denial? Is it wrong even? You can have all the reasons in the world to call me scum, but I know from the start that those reasons, contrary to your beliefs, do not prove that I am scum. So what I try to do in face of accusations, is to show how they are wrong. So when I deny 4nx's accusations (for example), I deny them because they're untrue AND because they're not actually alignment indicative - which I can tell they're not because I'm town and much like he's accusing me of using my reads to tie myself to him he could be accusing anyone else of tying themselves to people they've given reads on; on top of that, there's no other evidence to back up the accusation. 4nx basically attributed a scum motive to my read on him for no apparent reason other than "scum tie themselves to people through their reads" (so yeah, scum do it, but why would I?). So I do not think his accusation has any validity in itself and obviously I do not approve of it. Nor do I approve any other case on me because any thought process that concludes that I am scum is wrong. So I don't approve any case on me, but I do evaluate the reasons and thought process behind them and that I can approve. - In sum, I can accept cases on me if I think they're genuine, but I cannot approve them.

The point here is that you *did* scum read a leading wagon, and I'd argue that that scum read was active when the clock was ticking down. Overall supporting wagons on townies and trying to hop off at the end is scummy, while not liking wagons on townies but being willing to commit to a least-bad wagon of the feasible options is good town play. Avoiding the wagons altogether like mastin2 did falls somewhere in the middle for me. Given what I know of mastin's play, it wouldn't be a shocking move for her as town. And I'd actually expect her to want to influence town more than she's doing here if she's scum.

As I said, I wouldn't have hopped off the talah wagon if I still had a solid scum read on him and context is key in understanding this change in my read. I'm not the kind of player who writes down every read update and I don't like being redundant. talah had posted some posts that made me feel better about him and brought back the doubts I had earlier about him; I never liked the Luca wagon; So it wasn't about avoiding the town wagons (which I couldn't even if I wanted to because of my earlier push on talah), it was about wanting to lynch my top scum read, it was about pursuing my own read, my own instinct, rather than someone else's. My ThAd read came from me, from my interaction with him and from my interpretation of his posts, my talah read was a mixture of that and agreeing with the cases of other players, like MR and Snork. I did not care if my action would look scummy or not, well I already knew it would if I was right and talah flipped town, but I did it anyway. Why the fuck would I as scum leave my safe place on the talah wagon to do something I knew I would be scrutinized for once she flipped?

[SnowStorm]

Ok, I think I've kinda picked out the main gist of my problem with SnowStorm recently. What it is is this shocking flip for being very much an offensive player to suddenly very defensive indeed - all triggered by not very many votes. Look at this ISO, and I think you'll notice the split in tone between posts before ~ #35 and those after. I don't believe that defensiveness in itself is a scumtell - I think it's a trait. When a player starts to exhibit defensiveness quite dramatically and so suddenly, that's when my suspicions arise.

The other main problem I have with SnowStorm is this post yesterday - where he moves his vote from talah to ThAd

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Which isn't too bad by itself but when you consider that the post directly before was a post all about how talah was scum and just a couple of posts before that he said:

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

it just makes the ThAd vote feel really unnatural to me.

My vote is looking for a home and for now I'm happy with this.

Vote: SnowStorm

About the change in tone all I can say is it is a personality tell.

About those two posts. I addressed that in my previous post. You're not taking the context of the posts into consideration or the fact that in between my thAd vote and my previous post about a day had passed, and between the thAd vote and the post you quoted, about two days and twp-hundred posts had passed.

[SnowStorm]

A couple of thoughts:

Nero has become one of my strongest town reads. I'm really liking his posts today.

Snork is still a strong town read. I agree with his reasons to suspect Rach, but I am not comfortable with lynching her. I find the amount of town reads on her pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

AP is probably my strongest scum read after ThAd.

[aptil]

Snow is town . We need to look at ThAd or Matt today .

[ThAdmiral]

I'll respond to you in a sec but just for the record, what is your read on Snork?

I'm wavering. I didn't like bjc. I liked snork's entrance to the game. I didn't like his attack and vote on me, especially considering he was also keen for a talah lynch and talah had more votes. I've been largely liking him today. Overall I'd say town.

So the chain of events go something like this:

Rach finds Luca scummy in random newbie game>>>>Rach finds Luca scummy in this game>>>>Rach forgets the inno in a newbie game>>>>Rach still wants a dead Luca in this game.>>>Rachs last post in this game>>>she rereads the cop claim.

Are you arguing that she had the foresight to hop on Luca and then "lie" in the newbie game that she forgot the cop claim just so she could defend herself here? I think her play makes perfect sense and I don't think she's lying about forgetting the cop inno.

Well I didn't read that quote by rach in the other game which does lend creedence to her forgetting genuinely. It does seem like you are making a lot of excuses/allowances for her though. Does it not bother you that, in your own words, luca's play in this game compared to the other one was "night and day".

Furthermore do you understand that's not the only point against her? This is from a post I made yesterday:

But I also found

Rach marie

- for coasting, voting nero because apparently he is more active when he's town (a poor reason to vote, also on a person who wasn't around to defend themselves at the time - smacks of a vote park), and trying to sneak on to the luca wagon uncontroversially with a hypocritical reason (going after low-hanging fruit).

Thad shouldn't live much longer, lets put him out of his misery.

vote:Thad

Hey nero, you're case is so bad it should make you town read me!

Nero I understand you thinl the CASE is crap. I don't think you're getting my point, which is that if you are scum reading two people, one of which is scum reading the other, and the next day that person is still scum reading the other, and forms an argument that you think is crap, that shouldn't affect your read on rach. If anything it should strengthen your scumread on me yet that hasnt happened. You all of a sudden town read rach and are pushing thad.

Yeah nero's lost the plot in this game as far as I can tell. I had a pretty decent townread on him yesterday but I have no fucking clue now.

Nero thinks shes town and I don't pretend to know why, but Nero looks pretty town this game so Im not concerned.

How do you take nero's change of heart on rach from day 1 to now, furthermore the reason for his flip?

[Egg]

V/LA for the weekend. I'll respond to everything since my last post on Monday night or Tuesday morning.

[PeregrineV]

Saturday post!

[Nero Cain]

So the chain of events go something like this:

Rach finds Luca scummy in random newbie game>>>>Rach finds Luca scummy in this game>>>>Rach forgets the inno in a newbie game>>>>Rach still wants a dead Luca in this game.>>>Rachs last post in this game>>>she rereads the cop claim.

Are you arguing that she had the foresight to hop on Luca and then "lie" in the newbie game that she forgot the cop claim just so she could defend herself here? I think her play makes perfect sense and I don't think she's lying about forgetting the cop inno.

Well I didn't read that quote by rach in the other game which does lend creedence to her forgetting genuinely. It does seem like you are making a lot of excuses/allowances for her though. Does it not bother you that, in your own words, luca's play in this game compared to the other one was "night and day".

SHE thought they were similar. My thoughts don't matter, your thoughts don't matter, certainly AP's thoughts don't matter. What does matter is that I think she's being genuine here, Basically the case boils down to "Rach didn't do like we [Snork and Thad] would have done."

Furthermore do you understand that's not the only point against her? This is from a post I made yesterday:

But I also found

Rach marie

- for coasting, voting nero because apparently he is more active when he's town (a poor reason to vote, also on a person who wasn't around to defend themselves at the time - smacks of a vote park), and trying to sneak on to the luca wagon uncontroversially with a hypocritical reason (going after low-hanging fruit).

Its unfortunate, I've come to find that that being a hypocrite isn't a very good scumtell. For example, one of Rogers "points" against Talah was that she was hunting inactive players. I *did* agree that I could easily see that from scum but then I read that Rogers scumreads were a whole bunch of lurkers themselves minus the OMGUS scum read on myself. Yea, no need to point out that

Rogers was scummy but my question is why is this scummy from Rach and not MR/PA? The vote on me wasn't all that great but I could kinda see that from a town POV. There's a player named Tammy that doesn't that shit all the time. Its a fairy well known fact that I don't post as much as scum. I posted on the 19th and her vote was the 20th. Yea she was rushing me but its not like "I wasn't around" as you say.

[Nero Cain]

[quote="In

How do I look town but you don't know why I'm town reading Rach?

Snork is making a bad case on her so she must be town? Shouldn't you be voting Snork then?

is dumb dumb dumb and doesn't make much sense as a response. Saying that you felt I was town but didn't know why I was town reading Rach is basicly saying that you aren't reading my posts. So when I ask you about it....you push back and then try and discredit me by claiming I've never had a town read on you.

I have read every post in the game. I don't get why you are hung up on this RM point.

You are townreading RM because a player of ??? alignment is calling her scum for posting excuses and lurking. That confuses the hell out of me, but I can't be bothered to argue with you about it since I don't think this is alignment indicative for you and everything you've done this game looks like Nero-town.

I mean really. If I said PA is scum for some arbitrarily shitty reason like shes posting too much, would that make her town?

I'm not *hung up* on this RM point at all. I keep getting attacked over it. What am I supposed to do, just stop posting so then Thad and whomever will be all "Nero is ignoring Thad. He's scummy."?

This happens like every single day on this site and every other site that plays mafia, a case for why a player is scum is posted, people agree/disagree. The case is factually untrue and I think she's being genuine about actually forgetting here. Since when did being genuine stop being a town tell? I think the fact that the case is untrue + she's not lying points to her being town. I can't fathom how you and Thad are having such a hard time with this.

As for your PA point, prob.

[Yates]

I find the amount of town reads on her [Rach] pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

What? I don't understand what you are saying here.

[SnowStorm]

I find the amount of town reads on her [Rach] pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

What? I don't understand what you are saying here.

Rach strikes me like the kind of player who'd be easy for scum to push a lynch on and I think some have said something around the lines of her being an easy target. That goes for both alignments. If she's town, scum could just go from what Snork has brought up to push for her lynch, I think Snork's suspicion of her looks pretty genuine and I actually agree with most of the points he has raised against her, so it wouldn't be hard for scum to fake suspicion on her. I think the only thing that's stopping them from doing it is the ammount of town reads she has gotten from meta or no reasons at all. It's safer for them to just go along and town read her too (at least for now). If she was scum, first, I don't believe she'd have this many town reads, second, even if she had a good number of town reads coming from town, I don't think scum would join in, I'd expect some weak scum reads floating around, after all, she'd still be pretty scummy and it wouldn't be unlikely to think that people could change their minds on her/figure out she was scum and lynch her, that way they'd get some town cred and some fingers to point at post-flip. I mean, it wouldn't matter how many town reads she had on her now, if she kept playing like this she'd be bus material.