Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[zMuffinMan]

also how much do you know about nati and his opinion on neighbourhoods

because it being a 3-town neighbourhood perfectly explains the otherwise severe lack of town power in this game if nati is of the same opinion as i am about an all-town neighbourhood (that, hidden from scum, it can not only catch them by surprise, but be a pretty strong force - and, well, had aronis stepped up to the plate, we could have basically been a masonry since idiotking and i were pretty sure on each other)

that is part of the reason i wanted to keep the neighbourhood hidden, as idiotking brought up at some point, and had aronis not been run up, i would have kept it hidden until mass claim required it to be outed

on the other hand, a 2-town-1-scum neighbourhood in a normal game not only is stupid because it gives scum an extra advantage (knowing that the two neighbours are almost certainly vanilla neighbours because it's a normal game - i think that's how it works? i remember cabd talking about how a non-vanilla neighbour would be the 1 allowable exception in a normal game) but also has no real upside to town in terms of power (i mean, you can scum hunt within a neighbourhood, but that's about it, and that's not exactly reliable?)

tl;dr is i can see nati thinking setup balanced with 3-town neighbourhood, but can you see nati thinking it's balanced with 2-town-1-scum?

[Guyett]

Back from Greece.
Rereading and I have a bit of a different opinion on people now. I think Selkies is the last scum tbh

[Selkies]

tell me things

[Guyett]

VOTE: selkies

[Nachomamma8]

all game, it felt like you were attempting to poorly imitate some idea of your town self that you seem to think other people have.

So to be clear: the reason you think I'm being so erratic and so absolutely batshit this game is because you think I was trying to imitate my town meta? And you think that the way I was choosing to beat ffery, and am so confident in beating ffery (who I always worry about, and you know this) by bringing her to LyLo, is by not giving a shit about forming any valid thought processes/any trajectory whatsoever?

[Nachomamma8]

instead, i think you're hedging your bets and going after me because you can't really go after anyone else without people realising you're obvscum

Why can't I go after Guyett? If scum, I faked a fine amount of paranoia on him earlier and then stopped pushing him for pretty much no reason.
Also, "not reanalyzing" is an absolutely bullshit reason. "Not reanalyzing" is a reason that amounts to "you're still pushing me as scum, you would've realized I'm town by now".

I also think "you would have been analyzing more now" is additionally a pretty obviously bullshit reason for some pretty obvious reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

bert read was pretty bizarre. But, bert was never lynchable imo, so it's kind of a strange read for scum-zmuffin to have. I think. I dunno. Something to review.

I don't think pushing someone who is unlynchable is a bad move for scum-Muffin at all. I don't think he has to worry very much about getting mislynches when the majority of his team wasn't coming under fire early game.

[Nachomamma8]

but then there are a lot of people in this game that nacho probably didn't want in lylo (and i'm guessing bert, claimed doc and claimed en-vig are among that list)

Cabd, Selkies, you.
I'm not afraid of Bert as scum, sorry! (which you know from empire-game)

[Nachomamma8]

And to expand on that, I know Bert gets nervous in LyLo. I know he gets less active, I know he tends to get suicidal, he tends to do things a little crazy in LyLo, and would probably be much more open to the "Bert, just trust me" types of arguments. If I were to bring Selkies to LyLo, I'd probably be aiming for the mislynch, and that would have been pretty incredibly easily accomplished with Bert-Guyett-Selkies-Nacho, so whoops guess I found another scenario I could have created for myself.

[Natirasha]

Vote Count 7.1

TIME IS RUNNING OUT OR SOMETHING

Selkies(1):

Guyett

zMuffinMan(1):

Nachomamma8

Guyett(0):

Nachomamma8(0):

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting:

zMuffinMan, Selkies

With four alive, it takes three to lynch.

(expired on 2014-04-11 23:00:00)

[Nachomamma8]

because it being a 3-town neighbourhood perfectly explains the otherwise severe lack of town power in this game if nati is of the same opinion as i am about an all-town neighbourhood (that, hidden from scum, it can not only catch them by surprise, but be a pretty strong force - and, well, had aronis stepped up to the plate, we could have basically been a masonry since idiotking and i were pretty sure on each other)

This argument is basically the worst argument that I've seen in a while.
I've never seen a neighborhood become a masonry any more than people become a masonry through in thread interactions. Saying "oh, three town neighbors justifies us not having shit for power!" is one of the worst arguments that you've brought forward so far: please don't talk about it again, please don't imply you're talking about this again, please don't mention this argument ever ever again. I think a majority of what you've brought forward is okay (not horrible, not great) but this is an argument far beneath your skill level and please don't ruin my fun by bringing up shit arguments like this one that are so bad and so obviously wrong that they aren't even fun to refute.

[Guyett]

I think z is town but ns' s interactions with z early on are making me paranoid.

[Nachomamma8]

if you were thinking rationally, you'd realise the first point is an opinion that's alignment-indepedent - if i were actually scum, there'd be no reason for me to make up something like that if i wouldn't also think it as town

This is a townread that everyone sort of things is town (except for you). This means that the entire game is won or lost based on pretty much one lynch (notscience). You show you clearly care about the game, based on how adamantly you defended yourself yesterday and how much effort you put into the game then, but you never for a moment lifted one finger in order to defend notscience, your townread, and you never once expressed doubt about him like you thought he was scum. As scum, you know defending him will be sort of futile, and can be used as ammunition against you for trying to end the game early, so you sitting there not defending him despite him being a townread is probably the best solution: switching to scumreading him doesn't offer you any cred.

The only problem with you sitting there not defending him is that defending him was so crucial to that point of the game: it is alignment dependent when your defense of him is the difference between game ends and game continues as one alignment, while your defense of him doesn't matter at all as the other.

[Nachomamma8]

the second point seems blatantly wrong, and ignores the fact that goodfather was aware enough of what a neighbourhood was to ask if one of us was a neighbouriser

goodfather apparently didn't know what a neighborhood was at first
he also apparently knew of standard 'scum assumptions of one scum in the neighborhood
yet thought maybe there was a neighborizer? (if he looked it up on the wiki, how did he not notice it was a nightly thing? how did he get to neighborizer anything?)

all of his confusion about the neighborhood seems like bullshit because he knows some things, doesn't know some others. this suggests to me that he is faking being unaware of neighborhoods, which he wouldn't do unless there was scum in the neighborhoods, which leaves our favorite man (the muffin muffin man) as scum. so i didn't ignore the neighborizer fact: it's part of the argument!

[Nachomamma8]

like how you went from scum-reading goodfather at the beginning of D2 to town-reading him based on... nothing? or something?

didn't i have a point of setup spec stating that I thought town's power was shit and as a result SSK-Cabd-Goodfather were probably all town?
i guess you probably would've seen that if you were analyzing things and actually reading my ISO, amirite

[zMuffinMan]

So to be clear: the reason you think I'm being so erratic and so absolutely batshit this game is because you think I was trying to imitate my town meta?

i think you're trying to imitate some idea of your town meta that you have, yes. i think you think that "erratic play" is something that you'd do as "troll mode town" but there are off notes that don't look town, which is why i think it's a poor imitation

And you think that the way I was choosing to beat ffery, and am so confident in beating ffery (who I always worry about, and you know this) by bringing her to LyLo, is by not giving a shit about forming any valid thought processes/any trajectory whatsoever?

you know ffery is a meta-heavy player, though. if she's never seen play like this come from scum-you, yes, i think you thought this was a valid strategy - the lack of cohesive thoughts means there's nothing to peg you on because you aren't giving any sort of read progression, any reasons for your reads, or reasons for how they change, etc etc - it's the same thing i've considered doing in a game (and likely will do in a game at some point) as scum because it's something so off from how i normally play scum (but i need to draw scum in the right player list for it to work)

Why can't I go after Guyett? If scum, I faked a fine amount of paranoia on him earlier and then stopped pushing him for pretty much no reason

going after guyett is harder than going after me. going after guyett, you you don't have the fall-back of paranoia like you do with me so any argument you come up with needs to actually make sense. i also think you tailor your scum play around reads you're expected to have at certain points (like you expect that by this point as scum you'd have to town read selkies and guyett, so you are, and i'm possibly the only player in the game you wouldn't be expected to town read)

"Not reanalyzing" is a reason that amounts to "you're still pushing me as scum, you would've realized I'm town by now"

yes, that is exactly what i'm saying

town-you would have realised this by now

scum-you is ignoring it

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think pushing someone who is unlynchable is a bad move for scum-Muffin at all.

probably not, but it's also not really how i play scum, so i guess this is yet another thing you think i've changed up or something? i tend to not bother pushing "unlynchable" players as scum because it just draws more attention to myself because it needs to be justified.

I'm not afraid of Bert as scum, sorry!

i don't think you're "afraid" of him, i just think he was a priority kill for you because you thought he was unlynchable (which indirectly makes him a threat to your win con because you can't push a lynch on him) - and you already kinda acknowledged this when cabd asked about who you'd kill each night, soooooooooooooooooooooooo

And to expand on that, I know Bert gets nervous in LyLo. I know he gets less active, I know he tends to get suicidal, he tends to do things a little crazy in LyLo, and would probably be much more open to the "Bert, just trust me" types of arguments. If I were to bring Selkies to LyLo, I'd probably be aiming for the mislynch, and that would have been pretty incredibly easily accomplished with Bert-Guyett-Selkies-Nacho, so whoops guess I found another scenario I could have created for myself.

uh huh

see, if you were thinking rationally, and like your town self, you'd know bert dying is actually yet another sign that i'm town, because i didn't actually give a shit whether or not he was unlynchable - you did

also think it's funny that you're thinking like scum here because i was about to argue that you couldn't have known it'd be a 4p mylo - but i forgot scum had rolecopped cabd so it was probably a planned 4p mylo

also while i'm at it, you being scum with a nurse in this game means you knew it was likely town had a doc, which explains why you weren't shooting obvious targets this game, instead going after people who were unlikely to be protected

I've never seen a neighborhood become a masonry

then you've never seen a neighbourhood played correctly - though, technically, the neighbourhood you had in cash cabd was a semi-masonry (albeit among two people, not three)

i also don't believe you've never seen neighbours fake-claim masons, either - granted; it's usually gone to shit because of one person in the neighbourhood actually being scum, but it happens

key point here is that if it was an all-town neighbourhood (and from my pov i know it was) with day talk, hidden from scum, then yeah, i think this could have been an extremely powerful town force if we'd managed to work together properly. it didn't happen, but it easily could have, and the game was balanced around it

[zMuffinMan]

i also wasn't suggesting it must be the case, but from a setup spec point of view, it is the only thing that makes sense. and i already explained why the counter to that (2-town-1-scum) in a normal game is less sensible

[zMuffinMan]

You show you clearly care about the game, based on how adamantly you defended yourself yesterday and how much effort you put into the game then, but you never for a moment lifted one finger in order to defend notscience, your townread, and you never once expressed doubt about him like you thought he was scum. As scum, you know defending him will be sort of futile, and can be used as ammunition against you for trying to end the game early, so you sitting there not defending him despite him being a townread is probably the best solution: switching to scumreading him doesn't offer you any cred.

first, the idea that i must defend my town-reads to the death is absolutely stupid; i only defend people to the death if i'm 99.999% sure i'm right about them being town, and even then, if they don't give enough of a shit about the game to defend themselves, i generally don't go out of my way to do this (i'm pretty sure if i sift through my town games i can find similar examples of this thought process in action if you don't believe it). though saying i didn't defend him is a load of shit, given i did put forth arguments for why i thought he could be town

second, i'm never so attached to a scum buddy that i think i need to defend them like that - i would never have brought up the thing i thought was a town slip in the first place as scum with notscience, because i wouldn't have wanted to be forced into a situation where i had to defend a buddy, and i wouldn't have bothered defending a buddy who was practically dead in the water. it's simply not how i play scum. for any other person, you might have a valid argument, but you know this isn't how i play scum. unless your argument here is LOLWIFOM you'd do it because you wouldn't do it, in which case you're just stretching now to find shit that suits your predetermined read

goodfather apparently didn't know what a neighborhood was at first

wrong? and since this is the basis for your whole argument here, your whole argument is bullshit

why don't you actually quote goodfather (i did it for you in 3863, shouldn't be too hard to find) and/or read what he actually said before making this argument

literally the first thing he said about neighbourhoods was "my understanding of neighbourhoods is..."

STOP FUCKING BULLSHITTING YOUR ARGUMENTS AGAINST ME HOPING PEOPLE AREN'T READING

didn't i have a point of setup spec stating that I thought town's power was shit and as a result SSK-Cabd-Goodfather were probably all town?
i guess you probably would've seen that if you were analyzing things and actually reading my ISO, amirite

i am talking about the start of D2, before any claims had happened

so no, you thinking ssk/cabd/goodfather were all probably town is not the reason your read changed

[zMuffinMan]

like, seriously, if you're going to claim that goodfather's stuff re: neighbourhood is faked and therefore he was faking it, quote him

[zMuffinMan]

also, really, if you were thinking about it critically, you'd realise that goodfather was actually trying to spread paranoia about the neighbourhood with the first quote because it was an all-town neighbourhood

just sayin'

my understanding of neighborhoods is that not all members necessarily have the same affiliation.

So can the three of you really be sure of each others affiliation? I doubt that you would have outed yourselves if you were the scum team, so it is likely that 1 or more are town, but there is also no guarantee that you are all town. Is this understanding of neighborhoods correct @natirasha??

last question about the neighborhood, is one of you a neighborizer?

like did you all start the game knowing you were in a neighborhood, or was it something that you were notified about after the game had started??

last question about the neighborhood, is one of you a neighborizer?

like did you all start the game knowing you were in a neighborhood, or was it something that you were notified about after the game had started??

How would this be alignment indicative at all?

it is not necessarily alignment indicative, but it might make more sense of muffins early day phase play.

I am still a bit thrown by his initial post where he seemingly arbitrarily decided a few reads.

He didn't name either of the members of his neighborhood

katsuki is town, foutrouble is town, mafiassk is maybe town, selkies is scum

Plus it would help analyze early town reads from the three of them. What if they made reads before they were all invited to the neighborhood? and what if those reads changed after talking in the qt?

Knowing the sequence of events will help when analyzing early day phase posting. That seems pretty straightforward to me. I also want to have a better understanding of the game mechanics. i have not come across neighborhoods firsthand before, and asking questions is the best way for me to learn how it works

[zMuffinMan]

I think z is town but ns' s interactions with z early on are making me paranoid.

which interactions

[Selkies]

i don't remember if you ever talked about your thoughts on 3535

i think you mentioned it somewhere but i don't remember anything beyond that

i'll talk about it more tomorrow (hopefully)

I never did discuss it but I have thought about it. maybe orci said something about revisiting it.

Your post takes me back to a game long ago and far away. It was actually the first game I ever made it to lylo as scum. The guy who taught me how to play mafia was the mod, and after the game he pointed up what he felt was a near-fatal error on my part on night 3 or 4. The cop had claimed and had a guilty on another scum player. Scum thought there was a protective role in the game and we chose to kill the player we thought was a doc that night rather than target the cop.

There was no doc.

The cop had an inno the next day and we had one very precarious path of mislynches left that could get us to lylo and a win.

My mentor very kindly yelled at me after the game for not targeting the cop for the kill and risking the action failing. It was his opinion that you always go after the biggest threat rather than self-wifom with setup spec and second guessing town prs, and let other scum teams do the dodge and weave stuff that kept town PRs guessing what their best strategies were.

In that byzantine environment his advice made sense.

MS mafia is also byzantine, but in different ways. Anyway, I don't know if a scum team comprised of notsci, GF and one of you lot would have made such a direct cut to the night 2 Gordian knot.

[Selkies]

VOTE: selkies

What changed your mind about Nacho?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't know what the moral of that long story was meant to be since it doesn't really apply to this game given the mass claim D2, so i'll just nod sagely