Marvel Avengers Alliance - Game over

[T S O]

A Role Cop finds out that there's Masons?

What are you talking about?

[T S O]

Going to bed - finish this shit tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

A Role Cop finds out that there's Masons?

What are you talking about?

So? How does that affect the overall game and justify a role cop by itself. Masons are essentially glorified VTs that can confirm each other and talk out of the thread. They're good for PoE, but little else.

[CrashTextDummie]

TSO, when did you stop paying attention to this game? It must have been a while ago if you think that no one has been paranoid/suspicious of Thor and that no one other than you has suspected Smargaret since early D2. Why did you town read Pere and myself yesterday?

[Thor665]

I hear you both talking and I don't feel like wall posting to indicate to you how blithly bad I think your setup spec is.

Here's my rebuttal;

This is a Mini Theme.
Please link me as many mini themes as you can find with 1 town PR and a horde of VTs vs. a scum team with a PR in it.

I'll wait.

[CrashTextDummie]

From a setup point of view, it's just a waste of power, and the interaction of roles is not justified. It's essentially pretty close to bastard, as Thor said. The role cop would essentially be a glorified goon, while town gets an advantage in the form of PoE. The mod is essentially lying to the scum team, putting them at a disadvantage, while giving the town an advantage, especially if the masons make it to endgame. I'm already ticked that he hasn't taken advantage of the theme properly. Finding out that he pulled a stunt like that would be the final straw and enough to make me /out of the large game.

A pair of masons + 8 vanillas vs. 3 goons is rough for the town already and adding a role cop to the scum team certainly doesn't make it any less rough. You recognize that masons offer an advantage to the town, but dismiss that being able to find those masons via rolecop and thus making it easier to nightkill them is advantageous for scum. The idea that the mod would be "lying" to the scum in this scenario quite frankly boggles my mind.

I probably wouldn't be so tickled by this if you complaining about set up possibilities that you deem "unfair" to scum weren't so oddly familiar.

[Bulbazak]

@Thor: How often have you seen a role as insanely powerful as 1-shot BP Bodyguard?

@CTD: Notice that my argument is that I don't think that Masons would be town's only PRs. If Masons are in the game, then they are in addition to Bro's role. In order for your argument to make sense, you'd have to be arguing Bro-scum, which would be patently absurd. Believe me, my major gripe is over the mod not taking advantage of the theme of Marvel superheroes when designing the game, not any hypothetical Masons. The god of thunder being a mere VT boggles my mind.

[CrashTextDummie]

You are arguing that Bro's role could be in the game without ours, but ours couldn't be in the game without Bro's. I could wrap my head around that if your reasoning was that 1-shot BP Bodyguard is insanely powerful and that masons are weak and that therefore the latter scenario would be unbalanced towards scum. But that's not what you're arguing. You're arguing that scenario two would be lying to the scum (because they were given a rolecop) and that town could get the masons into endgame and that scum would be disadvantaged.

Unless I'm severely misreading, you literally argued that leaving out an insanely powerful town role (your words) would disadvantage scum.

[Bulbazak]

I just don't think Masons by themselves are justification for a role cop. Role cop implies a serious threat to the scum team that they must find. I don't find Masons to be that threatening to scum.

[BROseidon]

Bro is conf. town. I'm a bit paranoid about the mason claims for House of M flavor reasons, but I'm willing to believe it for now, given that Bro is the only other PR claim. I'm not sure whether the mod would think a bulletproof bodyguard was enough to warrant a rolecop by itself or not.

10:3 with me as the only town PR would be imba even without the rolecop. Masons are conftown.

[BROseidon]

And I have more problems, Thor. Namely, you making BROseidon and the Masons conftown. No entiendo. They're not at all, and I know if I was scum in this scenario I would be fakeclaiming a PR in a low power town, because the chances of me being caught in my claim are zilch.

brb getting mass claim order, since that's super relevant to this convo.

[BROseidon]

Order was:

CTD (+p5)–>Thor–>smarg–>TSO–>BRO–>Bulba.

hmm...

UNVOTE: Bulba Have to go work on a group thing now, but this adds another layer of WIFOM for me to parse through.

[jasonT1981]

Day 4 Vote Count 2

Smargaret 2 - Thor665, T S O,

Not voting

PeregrineV,
CrashTextDummie,
Bulbazak,
BROseidon,
smargaret,

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

(expired on 2014-04-20 15:11:00)

till Day 3 Deadline

[Thor665]

@Thor: How often have you seen a role as insanely powerful as 1-shot BP Bodyguard?

I don't find the role that insanely powerful.

You're saying it's so unbalanced that it would need to be the only PR?
In a 13 player game?

You're really losing me here.

[Bulbazak]

I'm saying it's justification enough for the role cop, and that I've been surprised we're a power light as we are given the theme.

[Thor665]

Mods often think themselves super clever in that regard. I'm pretty sure I did a DBZ Mafia once where Goku was a VT.
I'm still not sure how you're working up a game that is even more power light than the one we're considering. Like, if all the claims are absolutely true - we're still pretty power light. Even if you think that a 1 shot BP Bodyguard is somewhere equal to an investigative role or something in power level, we're not exactly being blown away in power here. I know I personally consider Masons pretty potent, but that isn't an opinion shared by all, and in a certain extent it's just like having a confirmed cop with one innocent result and no other shots. It's nice, but it's not really game breaking. So consider that our investigative (a pretty argueably weaker investigative) and then the BP Bodyguard is our protective (I'll even hand you a theory nod of calling it as strong as a JKer or something, if you want) and that's still a *very* balanced setup versus three mafia with a rolecop.

Where do you think I'm getting that concept wrong exactly?

[Thor665]

I mean, I'd be willing to wager a sig bet (though I think those are officially against site rules now because of derptitude) but, let's just talk in a theoretical, I'd be confident enough to do a sig bet that we could look at the last 5 completed Mini Themes and every single one of them would feature 3+ scum with at leats 1 PR versus a town with 3+ PRs one of which being investigative and another protective in nature.

You seem to want me to consider that a 1 shot BP Bodyguard is so potent, that it makes sense s a potential solo role versus scum in a 13 player setup?
Or, alternatively, 2 Masons vs. 3 scum, one of whom is a rolecop to counter the...power of a Mason pair? In a 13p setup where the Masons are the only PRs?

Unvote: Smargaret

I'll admit it's bugging me that both you and TSO are selling this gak.

Give me a short sentence explanation of why this makes sense.
Either of you - go.

Examples of similar games would go a loooong way to selling me. I honestly don't even think they're out there, so I really want to know why both of you are thinking this way.

[Thor665]

There's no way you're both scum selling this. Also, lack of vote moves. I'll be voting Smarg again, I was just being paranoid.

But I want my question answered, and I won't vote till it is because I don't want the day ended till I suss this out. It's not making sense to me, because either I am crazy off the deep end about what I think i sbalanced or *both* of you are. Ockham's suggests its me, every fibre of my being and experience tells me it's both of you. The logic of the gamestate if I'm right says it's an Ockham's against whichever of you is town with the scum just riding the train.

[Thor665]

Let's even do this just for the giggles.

@All the PR claims

Any breadcrumbs from any of you?

@BRO - justify your thinking behind your defense choices please.
@Masons - Day talk or night talk only?

[Thor665]

And I'm the one believing the claims.
Still the first guy to ask these things.
Crazy.

[smargaret]

Agreed that the pr's are probably clear - among other things, no way does scum claiming first put up such a high-stakes fake claim (especially without rolecop results saying town is largely vanilla), and masons aren't enough to balance the scum power alone. Unfortunately, this means I need to reread a good bit and rethink things.

My Bulba town read was because I thought his gut town on me was a cop inno. Obviously this isn't the case, so that's where I'm going to start.

Addendum to Thor's questions for the masons - if you're night talk only, did you get a notification when day 1 started?

[PeregrineV]

We get anytime talk, but get charged extra if we type over 5000 words a day.

[PeregrineV]

I can kind of buy Bros role. Lately Jason's mini theme's have been running power-light (H2HFBYM- doc,cop, scumRB):http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4921819

But, in a balanced sort of way.

It bugs me that he fullclaimed though. Why not try to draw the kill and make scum waste a shot?

[Bulbazak]

@Thor: I've stated repeatedly that I feel Bro's role is enough to justify the role cop by itself. I've never said that I'm convinced the Mason claims are fake. I actually said I'm pondering it. I've actually made it very clear that we should lynch outside the masons today (hence my TSO vote). If we nail scum, then the masons are clear and we have 3 conf. town. If we don't, then don't give them a pass during Lylo due to the claim alone.

[Thor665]

We get anytime talk, but get charged extra if we type over 5000 words a day.

My sense of humor is a little stunted right now.
Please clarify this.

@Thor: I've stated repeatedly that I feel Bro's role is enough to justify the role cop by itself. I've never said that I'm convinced the Mason claims are fake. I actually said I'm pondering it. I've actually made it very clear that we should lynch outside the masons today (hence my TSO vote). If we nail scum, then the masons are clear and we have 3 conf. town. If we don't, then don't give them a pass during Lylo due to the claim alone.

Okay.

Who is TSO's partner, me or Smargaret?